Have I missed a CAMRA sea change?

[NickDavies]

I remember a few years ago during the great 'revitalisation' phase that Pub Curmudgeon posited that maybe it was time for CAMRA to split between the progressives (beer we like) and traditionalists (handpumps and traditional pubs).

Felt like that wasn't a bad idea. Certainly at the moment CAMRA seems to be in a bit of a no-man's land which satisfies neither wing fully.

I thought his world was divided by people who would like smoking in pubs to return (him) and people who woudn't (everyone else).

[sheffield hatter]

I remember a few years ago during the great 'revitalisation' phase that Pub Curmudgeon posited that maybe it was time for CAMRA to split between the progressives (beer we like) and traditionalists (handpumps and traditional pubs).

Felt like that wasn't a bad idea. Certainly at the moment CAMRA seems to be in a bit of a no-man's land which satisfies neither wing fully.

I'm in danger of repeating myself, but surely an organisation calling itself the Campaign for Real Ale should, erm, campaign for real ale. If they find that the best way to keep real ale ticking over is to campaign on behalf of all pubs (which seems reasonable) and then - quietly, on the side - mention that "hey, some of these keg beers are quite good, aren't they", then everyone should be happy. There's an inconsistency between the campaigning arm and the pub listings, when, for example, the WhatPub links to nearby pubs sometimes do and sometimes don't include those which only serve keg beers, but it's never clear whether this is because those are good keg beers or not good, or just an admin error. Or at least, that's my experience. And what exactly is the difference between Worthington Creamflow, Marstons 61 Deep, Lagunitas or Neck Oil? (I note the beginnings of a thread on Discord about the current GBG and next year's submissions that may be relevant here.)

If there's to be a split, as you remind us the curmudgeonly one suggested, then what happens to those that like handpumps and traditional pubs but occasionally dabble their feet in a crafty keg; and on the other hand, what are you going to do about craft brewers that have been producing hazy New England fruit juices and are now dipping their toes into cask beers that taste of twigs and grass cuttings. Do they just walk away or will they be taken out and shot?

Surely it's better to have an organisation that has developed a relationship with government over the past 50 years continuing to represent all drinkers who like to go in pubs?

[Mobyduck]

And what exactly is the difference between Worthington Creamflow, Marstons 61 Deep, Lagunitas or Neck Oil?

Intensity of taste.

will they be taken out and shot?

Yes.

Surely it's better to have an organisation that has developed a relationship with government over the past 50 years continuing to represent all drinkers who like to go in pubs?

And either like all formats of beer or remain faithful to their ancient roots, stick to real ale and shrink in size and importance as the beer world continues to evolve.

If it comes out of a keykeg and its too cold or too fizzy it may still be cask.

I think you mean Real Ale John, cask comes from casks and keg from kegs but real ale can come from key kegs?

[Mobyduck]

Intensity of taste

However being honest I can't remember ever drinking Worthingtons Creamflow so I could be talking a load of tosh if this description is anywhere near true.

"Product Description
Creamflow Ale.
With over 240 years of heritage, tradition and expertise.
Superbly creamy, with velvety hints of rich buttered malt loaf, chilled malted milk and banana split in every sip. Intensified with liquorice notes, nutty toffee, and a basket of mixed fruits."

Any Creamflow experts out there?

[sheffield hatter]

However being honest I can't remember ever drinking Worthingtons Creamflow so I could be talking a load of tosh if this description is anywhere near true.

"Product Description
Creamflow Ale.
With over 240 years of heritage, tradition and expertise.
Superbly creamy, with velvety hints of rich buttered malt loaf, chilled malted milk and banana split in every sip. Intensified with liquorice notes, nutty toffee, and a basket of mixed fruits."

Any Creamflow experts out there?

Funny you should ask that. Can't say I ever noticed "rich buttered malt loaf, chilled malted milk, banana split, liquorice, nutty toffee, and a basket of mixed fruits" though.

I don't think I'd had it before this year, when my target of 500 new pubs meant drinking in quite a few that don't do real ale. So 16 of those 500 involved going for a Worthington, usually just a half. I found it variable, and it definitely makes a difference (to me, anyway) what temperature it's served at and how gassy it is. For example, the first Creamflow I had was at the Park in Wibsey, before a pre-season game at Bradford Bulls' Odsal stadium in January. It was almost indistinguishable from cask, in so far as the gas and the chill were concerned; lacking a little in subtlety of flavour, but not bad at all.

Another rugby league game, this time the semi-final of the play-offs in Wigan in September, saw me actually have a whole pint of Creamflow at the Queens Arms not far from the stadium, and it went down a treat, though to be fair I was pretty thirsty and it was a bit too cold for me. Usually the beer is a copper colour, but I had one in the Masons in Pudsey,that was much darker - as though it had had some gravy browning added to the barrel - but I'm pretty sure that it wasn't because a keg of John Smiths Smooth Crap had been connected to the tap in error.

Most of the rest were much of a muchness, but the standout awful half of Creamflow was at the very busy Masters in Hull after a game at the MKM Stadium. It was only just above freezing point and quite a challenge - it should have been badged ice-creamflow - not much chance of detecting any flavour with that one.

Mentioning the Masters Bar in Hull reminded me that my best-ever half of John Smiths Smooth was just around the corner at the Moderation. I wished I could have bought one for Alan Winfield. (I had 20 halves of the Smooth Crap amongst my 500+ new pubs this year, most of them supped with a grimace.)

[Mobyduck]

(I had 20 halves of the Smooth Crap amongst my 500+ new pubs this year, most of them supped with a grimace.)

You are achieveing legend status just for that, not sure I could manage 10 pints of john Smiths Smooth Crap in a year even if de-assembled .

[rpadam]

I don't think I'd had it before this year, when my target of 500 new pubs meant drinking in quite a few that don't do real ale. So 16 of those 500 involved going for a Worthington, usually just a half. I found it variable, and it definitely makes a difference (to me, anyway) what temperature it's served at and how gassy it is. For example, the first Creamflow I had was at the Park in Wibsey, before a pre-season game at Bradford Bulls' Odsal stadium in January. It was almost indistinguishable from cask, in so far as the gas and the chill were concerned; lacking a little in subtlety of flavour, but not bad at all.

Another rugby league game, this time the semi-final of the play-offs in Wigan in September, saw me actually have a whole pint of Creamflow at the Queens Arms not far from the stadium, and it went down a treat, though to be fair I was pretty thirsty and it was a bit too cold for me. Usually the beer is a copper colour, but I had one in the Masons in Pudsey,that was much darker - as though it had had some gravy browning added to the barrel - but I'm pretty sure that it wasn't because a keg of John Smiths Smooth Crap had been connected to the tap in error.

Most of the rest were much of a muchness, but the standout awful half of Creamflow was at the very busy Masters in Hull after a game at the MKM Stadium. It was only just above freezing point and quite a challenge - it should have been badged ice-creamflow - not much chance of detecting any flavour with that one.

Mentioning the Masters Bar in Hull reminded me that my best-ever half of John Smiths Smooth was just around the corner at the Moderation. I wished I could have bought one for Alan Winfield. (I had 20 halves of the Smooth Crap amongst my 500+ new pubs this year, most of them supped with a grimace.)

To my shame, I appear to have had 29 pints or halves of JSSC this year, and eight Worthies...

[Tris39]

I'm in danger of repeating myself, but surely an organisation calling itself the Campaign for Real Ale should, erm, campaign for real ale.

The nail hit firmly on the head; it's a bit like the president of RoSPA dousing himsel in petrol before attending his neighbour's BBQ. All too often I have to make a submission to CAMRA informing them that a pub's pumps have been removed, or that the pumps are unclipped at 8.00pm on a Friday. I don't see how CAMRA can campaign in favour of 'craft' (which seems to have no definition other than being 'reassuringly expensive') when it's pushing real ale aside in some London pubs. Whenever I've had a keg version of something available on cask, the level of flavour and mouth feel simply don't compare; and you pay at least £1 a pint more for the keg version.

[london calling]

The nail hit firmly on the head; it's a bit like the president of RoSPA dousing himsel in petrol before attending his neighbour's BBQ. All too often I have to make a submission to CAMRA informing them that a pub's pumps have been removed, or that the pumps are unclipped at 8.00pm on a Friday. I don't see how CAMRA can campaign in favour of 'craft' (which seems to have no definition other than being 'reassuringly expensive') when it's pushing real ale aside in some London pubs. Whenever I've had a keg version of something available on cask, the level of flavour and mouth feel simply don't compare; and you pay at least £1 a pint more for the keg version.

While I think craft keg has made great strides in the last few years Tris has hit the nail on the head.Cask has got a mouthfeel sometimes that keg just can't replicate.