Campaign to save the Maiden Over, Reading

[oldboots]

I haven't got it (and I cleared down loads of old messages a few weeks back so should have space...). Can you try again pls? ta

done

[Quinno]

done

Received!

[london calling]

There is alterative view proposed by a noted beer historian that why shouldn't someone who owns a property sell it for the most money he can get.

[oldboots]

There is alterative view proposed by a noted beer historian that why shouldn't someone who owns a property sell it for the most money he can get.

The general argument is that a pub is not just a shop that sells beer but has a community purpose and value. The social aspect makes pubs more valuable to society fulfilling that purpose than as property. As a property owner I would protect the rights of property in general but if I owned a Grade I listed building I would have to accept certain constraints on my freedom with that property.

The man to whom you allude (M Cornell) is a much respected historian but seems to have gone native with regard to PubCos and cannot see any evil in their activities which I find astounding in view of the evidence - much more evidence than for example for the early history of IPA. He seems to subscribe to the view that only bad pubs run by numpties go bust and get sold off, utter drivel of course. Having huge debts to service mean PubCos will sell a going concern to aid their cash flow regardless of any possible future returns, bird in the hand and all that - I don't knock it, that's business, I don't have to like though. Pub Cos do not have a vested interest in running successful pubs merely in servicing their debts and trying to get a return for their share holders. The same principle led to the closure of a number of successful (profitable) family breweries in the 1980s as the property value exceeded the potential but much less certain value from running the business.

As an aside, the ONLY pubs in my locality with any churn are the PubCo owned pubs; the rest stay in the same hands for years usually until retirement of the licensees but the PubCo pubs have a opening/closing rate made of elastic as they keep trying to find a new mug after bleeding the last one dry.

[rpadam]

The general argument is that a pub is not just a shop that sells beer but has a community purpose and value. The social aspect makes pubs more valuable to society fulfilling that purpose than as property.

Agreed, and since the new designation of 'Assets of Community Value' was introduced by the Government it has been public houses that have most often put forward by the public as being of particular importance locally.

[Rex_Rattus]

Martin Cornell isn't the only person I've heard espouse that view. The basic premise is that the market should decide what ought to happen to a pub, and that if it's better for someone's business to close a pub then so be it. That's all very well if everyone can be relied on to do the right thing, but they can't and that's why we have laws and regulations to influence behaviour for the greater good. That's partly why the National Trust came into being - the owners of nationally important important monuments couldn't always be trusted to treat them with the care they deserve. I'm not saying that pubs are quite as important as the sort of national treasures looked after by the NT, but the principle's the same.

M Cornell also says that CAMRA's campaign to require planning permission for any change of use to a pub will work against pubs. He argues that as soon as legislation appears on the horizon there will be a rush to close pubs before the legislation is enacted, and it will deter people from opening pubs in the first place as it will be too difficult to turn them into something if they really aren't viable. It's just possible that he is right - in the short term at least. I don't suggest that I can predict the capriciousness of the law of unintended consequences; but some protection for pubs under planning legislation seems to me to be the right thing to do.

There's some high level support for a change. I walked past a pub today and saw in the window a copy of a letter from Greg Mulholland MP to the local authority urging them to agree to an Article 4 Direction in respect of that (threatened) pub. Let's hope something is done to stem the current cull of the great British pub.

[oldboots]

Mr Cornell also says
"If there is one single thing that would increase the chance of survival of the British pub – and I won’t yield to you, Camra or anyone in my desire to see our pubs strong and thriving – it would be a dramatic improvement in the standard of cask beer served in those pubs."

Personally I think that shows just how far removed from modern day reality Mr C is, given that most pub drinkers drink Carling, Fosters or Carlsberg, the quality of real ale is of concern to maybe 15% of pub goers.

The PubCos will only close pubs if there is a buyer with the money to make it worthwhile or they can save more by keeping it shut, as with ACVs there will be loopholes in any new legislation demanding planning permission for change of use away from A4 - he who pays the piper etc.

[london calling]

We in West London seem to have too many pubs as some decent ones have been shut and converted with no protests about community values or maybe we don't have much of a community spirit.I think Mr C is trying to say Camra should be about beer (which I tend to agree with as a member) but without pubs where will you get it.Maybe Camra should set up a separate pub saving organisation as they seem to be less focused on beer and brewers at the moment.

[hondo]

We in West London seem to have too many pubs as some decent ones have been shut and converted with no protests about community values or maybe we don't have much of a community spirit.I think Mr C is trying to say Camra should be about beer (which I tend to agree with as a member) but without pubs where will you get it.Maybe Camra should set up a separate pub saving organisation as they seem to be less focused on beer and brewers at the moment.

Campaign for Real Ale Pubs oops maybe need to work on the name

[Strongers]

http://www.camdennewjournal.com/news/2014/aug/pub-re-open-historic-old-white-bear-hampstead

It can be done!