What is Craft Beer

[Mobyduck]

Sam Smiths is a brewery well known for the quality of its ingredients and the integrity of its brewing processes, so I assume when you say "it's crap" you mean simply that you don't like it?

yes as simple as that .

[Aqualung]

I don't think it's a North/South thing. Al 10000 responded to your (I hope tongue in cheek) definition of craft with a mild criticism.

I didn't actually try and define "craft". My point was that Doom Bore and OBB are bog standard old school beers whereas some of the recent Adnam's beers are clearly not.

Of course, as with Humpty Dumpty in Through the Looking Glass, you can use a term to mean just what you choose it to mean — neither more nor less. It's just not very helpful to anyone else, as Al was trying to point out, if it's craft when you like the beer and not craft when you don't. Or did you have a more helpful way of distinguishing the two Adnams beers?

I agree the "Craft" tag is meaningless, but this is the first time ever I have heard anyone describe OBB as superb and I'm going back over 35 years. My point about Adnam's was basically that they are the only major regional to date that have really got to grips with the use of New World hop combinations. I still don't like Broadside.

I think the problem over this "what is craft?" thing is that those who brew challenging beers and those that like drinking them are looking down their noses a little at those of us with less advanced taste buds.

Aren't we all looking down our noses at people that willingly just drink smooth crap all of the time?

There are plenty of people who like drinking non-challenging beers - beer is supposed to be a pleasant and refreshing drink, isn't it? There are some days when I arrive in a pub to find eight or ten hand pumps serving beers I've never heard of from breweries that started up last week, and I'm glad to have the chance of saying, "a pint of Black Sheep Bitter, please".

That is a very fair and valid point, I've heard people in the William complain that the only old school bitter is Bethnal Green, but even that is more like old school Manchester beer than London.
If it wasn't for the pubs with 8-10 pumps we would all be stuck with the boring national blands.

[Wittenden]

I don't often get to try Sam Smith's now,either in that
London (I won't drink keg), or in Yorkshire. However, when I first went into the Northeast,via the Norfolk beer desert of the mid seventies, SS OBB was one of the very few real ales available, alongside a rare pint of Theakstons , a drop of Camerons and something dire from Bass Charrington.
I wouldn't call it craft, despite the alleged corporate eccentries,but a decent English bitter when not mucked about with. As the yoof say,I've had worse.

[Mobyduck]

I think the problem over this "what is craft?" thing is that those who brew challenging beers and those that like drinking them are looking down their noses a little at those of us with less advanced taste buds. I don't want to find myself defending Doom Bar as well as Sam Smiths, but there are plenty of people who like drinking non-challenging beers - beer is supposed to be a pleasant and refreshing drink, isn't it? There are some days when I arrive in a pub to find eight or ten hand pumps serving beers I've never heard of from breweries that started up last week, and I'm glad to have the chance of saying, "a pint of Black Sheep Bitter, please."





Now that's a definition that's hard to argue with.

It doesn't matter whether its called craft or crap, if you like it you like it,if you don't you don't, I certainly don't look down my nose at people who enjoy the likes of Doombar ,Blacksheep Bitter or indeed OBB, I am not particularly fond of those just mentioned but thats my taste, calling OBB crap is no different to using the phrase "John Smiths Smooth crap" which many on here have used and I agree with,(are we looking down our noses at them?) I'm sure there are some out there who enjoy it, and, even Fosters . This isn't a pop at anyone its how I see it.
P.S. I like beers that taste of Grapefruit.

[oldboots]

Maybe they are trying to give it "craft" credentials by only selling it on keg in several of their London outlets.

Sam's will not serve cask beer south of, I think, Derby, one of Mr Humphrey's little ways.

[oldboots]

Fullers still use this system .Its called part-gyle.They only brew one beer which is drawn off at different times and different abv,s then they mix them to produce Golden Pride-Esb-Pride and Chiswick bitter. They think it gives better consistency than brewing 4 separate beers.The seasonals are usually separate beers.So not craft according to Brewdog.

I think parti-gyleing is slightly different, high gravity involves brewing at, for beer yeast, very high gravity (1080-1100 or roughly 8-11% ABV) then watering down to achieve a more moderate strength of say around 4% abv.

[rpadam]

Sam's will not serve cask beer south of, I think, Derby, one of Mr Humphrey's little ways.

??? There's quite a bit of it in London (perhaps 50% of Sam Smiths outlets?), but how they choose which ones have cask OBB and those which take the keg version defeats me since there is no obvious differentiating factor that I can see...

[Al 10000]

??? There's quite a bit of it in London (perhaps 50% of Sam Smiths outlets?), but how they choose which ones have cask OBB and those which take the keg version defeats me since there is no obvious differentiating factor that I can see...

Yes there are qite a few Samuel Smiths pubs in London that sell real ale.

I have been in 137 Samuel Smiths pubs,i like their pubs and their beers,i even like the keg version of OBB.

I have been in 34 Samuel Smiths pubs in London 14 had real ale on and 19 had only keg on,the one missing pub is now a
Shepherd Neame tied house.

The pubs in London which had real on were

Lyceum Tavern /covent garden :12/3/1988
Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese /city EC4 : /4/6/2004
Rising Sun /smithfield : 10/6/2004
Chandos /covent garden : 17/7/2004
The Cock /fitzrovia : 4/12/2004
Cittie of York /holborn : 30/12/2003
Blue Posts /fitzrovia : 4/12/2004
Princess Louise /bloomsbury : 4/12/2004
Crown and Sugarloaf /city EC4 : 31/3/2005
Yorkshire Grey /fitzrovia : 15/10/2005
The Angel /covent garden : 12/11/2005
Town Wharf /isleworth : 26/11/2005
Ye Olde Swiss Cottage /swiss cottage : 3/11/2007
The Cardinal /westminster : 11/1/2008

Keg Samuel Smith pubs in London were

Red Lion /soho : 4/12/2004
White Horse /soho : 4/12/2004
The Champion /fitzrovia : 4/12/2004
Bricklayers Arms /fitzrovia : 4/12/2004
Fitzroy Tavern /fitzrovia : 4/12/2004
Captain Kidd /wapping :10/2/2005
Earl of Lonsdale /notting hill : 5/3/2005
Robert Browing /maida vale : 30/4/2005
Dover Castle /marylebone : 30/4/2005
Angel in the Fields /marylebone : 15/10/2005
Duke of York /marylebone : 15/10/2005
Horse and Groom /fitzrovia : 15/10/2005
Duke of Argyl /soho : 12/11/2005
The Crown /bloomsbury : 12/11/2005
The Angel /rotherhithe : 20/5/2006
Anchor Tap /southwark : 20/5/2006
John Snow /soho : 22/2/2007
Glasshouse Stores /soho : 22/2/2007
The Gazebo /kingston : 2/5/2009

There are a few more to do in London yet.

All of this information was taken from my pub lists not the internet,all pubs were visted on the date shown.

[london calling]

I think parti-gyleing is slightly different, high gravity involves brewing at, for beer yeast, very high gravity (1080-1100 or roughly 8-11% ABV) then watering down to achieve a more moderate strength of say around 4% abv.

You are probably right on that as I am not sure how the part-gyling actually works.cheers john

[london calling]

??? There's quite a bit of it in London (perhaps 50% of Sam Smiths outlets?), but how they choose which ones have cask OBB and those which take the keg version defeats me since there is no obvious differentiating factor that I can see...

I met one of the Sams managers a couple of years ago and he told me only pubs that can shift 2 x18 gallon barrels a day are allowed to serve cask.About 300 pints a day.