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12-01-2012, 07:05
Visit the Shut up about Barclay Perkins site (http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2012/01/england-vs-scotland-part-2a-1840s.html)
I bet you though (hoped more like) that I'd forgotten about my painstakingly detailed comparison of English and Scottish beers. Not true at all. I've just been busy elsewhere. Sorry, saving up these juicy titbits until later.
We'll start with Mild. Why? Because I sorted the table entries by style and Mild is the first alphabetically. That's a good enough reason for me.
I've split the beers into gravity bands under 1070º, 1070º-1080º, 1080º-1090º, 1090º-1110º, and over 1110º. First the kiddies' Milds.
How about this, I show you the table then explain what I think it tells us (if anything)? Sound Good? OK, here goes:
Date
Year
Brewer
Beer
Style
OG
FG
ABV
App. Attenuation
lbs hops/ qtr
hops lb/brl
boil time (hours)
boil time (hours)
boil time (hours)
Pitch temp
max. fermentation temp
length of fermentation (days)
5th Mar
1841
Truman
X Ale
Mild
1059.3
14
3.85
58
79.5
19th Apr
1848
Younger, Wm.
42/-
Mild
1043
1012
4.10
72.09%
15.00
2.65
1.33
59
66
4
17th Nov
1849
Younger, Wm.
42/-
Mild
1048
1014
4.50
70.83%
19.25
3.76
1.08
58
65
6
5th Mar
1847
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1061
1028
4.37
54.10%
4.15
1.13
1.33
58
64
5
13th Mar
1847
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1064
1033
4.10
48.44%
4.00
1.22
1.5
1.5
58
65
6
Average
1054.0
1021.8
4.27
61.37%
10.60
2.19
1.31
1.50
58.3
65.0
5.3
difference
-5.3
1021.8
4.3
0.6
-3.4
-1.7
0.0
-14.5
Sources:
Truman brewing record document number B/THB/C/122 held at the London Metropolitan Archives
William Younger brewing record document number WY/6/1/2/3 held at the Scottish Brewing Archive
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QspGH-d4Zzk/Tw19OuC7jvI/AAAAAAAAIik/OF2SIUPSqaI/s320/England_vs_Scotland_part_2_a.JPG (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QspGH-d4Zzk/Tw19OuC7jvI/AAAAAAAAIik/OF2SIUPSqaI/s1600/England_vs_Scotland_part_2_a.JPG)
I had trouble matching any London beers with Younger's 42/- and 60/-. Only one Truman beer had a similar gravity. Which makes it difficult to draw any meaningful conclusions. The Truman's beer has about 3 times as many hops per barrel as the Younger's 60/-. Oddly enough, both were pitched at exactly the same temperature - 58º F. Though the maximum fermentation temperature of the Truman beer was much higher. 14.5º F more, to be precise. But if we look at the hopping of Younger's 42/-, there's not much difference with the hopping of the Truman beer. Especially taking into account the lower gravity of the 42/-. You can see that the hopping rate per quarter (a good way of taking the beer's gravity out of consideration) is at 15 and 19.25 lbs, more than the Truman X Ale.
There's not much we can learn from that. Except that Younger hopped their weaker Milds at wildly differing rates. And that Younger brewed some Milds of lower gravity than those made in London.
Onwards to band two, 1070º-1080º:
Date
Year
Brewer
Beer
Style
OG
FG
ABV
App. Attenuation
lbs hops/ qtr
hops lb/brl
boil time (hours)
boil time (hours)
boil time (hours)
Pitch temp
max. fermentation temp
length of fermentation (days)
12th Feb
1845
Barclay Perkins
X
Mild
1070.6
9.26
3.26
3
57.5
69.5
23rd Jan
1849
Barclay Perkins
X
Mild
1071.5
7.79
2.68
3.5
58.5
72
19th Mar
1841
Whitbread
X
Mild
1074.0
1030.7
5.72
58.43%
9.09
2.74
2
2
3
64
72
7
8th Apr
1841
Whitbread
X
Mild
1075.3
1031.6
5.79
58.09%
7.29
2.20
1.5
2
3
64
73
7
22nd Apr
1841
Whitbread
X
Mild
1075.6
1028.8
6.19
61.90%
5.96
1.88
2
2
3
64
73
7
6th Apr
1841
Whitbread
X
Mild
1075.9
1029.1
6.19
61.68%
9.85
3.00
2
2
3
64
73
6
13th Feb
1841
Truman
X Ale
Mild
1076.2
1027.1
6.49
64.36%
6
1.95
60
74
10
7th Apr
1841
Whitbread
X
Mild
1076.5
1028.0
6.41
63.41%
9.36
3.09
2
2
3
64
73
8
14th Apr
1841
Whitbread
X
Mild
1076.7
1028.5
6.38
62.82%
9.42
3.14
2
2
3
64
73
8
13th Apr
1841
Whitbread
X
Mild
1076.7
1029.9
6.19
61.01%
7.53
2.44
1.5
2
3
64
73.5
6
20th Apr
1841
Whitbread
X
Mild
1077.0
1030.7
6.12
60.07%
7.45
2.36
1.5
2
3
64
73
6
14th Jan
1846
Truman
X Ale
Mild
1077.3
1023.3
7.15
69.89%
14.0
4.53
59
76.25
10
14th Mar
1846
Truman
X Ale
Mild
1079.8
1025.5
7.18
68.06%
6.0
1.94
59
76.5
8
Average
1075.6
1028.5
6.35
62.70%
8.39
2.71
2.10
2.00
3.00
62.0
73.2
7.5
4th Mar
1847
Younger, Wm.
80/-
Mild
1071
1030
5.42
57.75%
4.17
1.36
1.5
59
67
8
28th Feb
1848
Younger, Wm.
80/-
Mild
1071
1036
4.63
49.30%
4.00
1.86
1.25
1.25
57
67
8
11th Jul
1848
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1071
1032
5.16
54.93%
7.00
2.36
1.25
59
69
7
19th Jan
1849
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1071
1033
5.03
53.52%
3.85
1.25
1.25
57
65
8
7th Oct
1848
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1072
1036
4.76
50.00%
3.43
1.25
1.5
61
66
7
9th Oct
1848
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1072
1032
5.29
55.56%
3.18
1.05
1.66
57
69
8
29th Dec
1848
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1072
1035
4.89
51.39%
3.71
1.29
1.5
57
64
8
25th Jan
1849
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1072
1024
6.35
66.67%
3.48
1.18
1.25
56
65
7
16th Nov
1849
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1072
1032
5.29
55.56%
1.29
1.25
2
57
65
7
9th Jan
1849
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1073
1033
5.29
54.79%
3.54
1.18
2
56
67
8
4th Apr
1849
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1073
1034
5.16
53.42%
3.33
1.11
2
56
66
8
8th Sep
1849
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1073
1033
5.29
54.79%
6.00
2.03
1.25
1.25
56
69
8
8th Mar
1847
Younger, Wm.
80/-
Mild
1074
1037
4.89
50.00%
4.00
1.38
1.17
1.33
56
64
10
16th Mar
1847
Younger, Wm.
80/-
Mild
1074
1032
5.56
56.76%
8.00
2.74
1.5
1.5
58
67
8
19th Feb
1848
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1074
1037
4.89
50.00%
3.33
1.18
2
57
66
6
11th Mar
1848
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1074
1033
5.42
55.41%
3.25
1.14
2
58
66
6
3rd Apr
1849
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1074
1033
5.42
55.41%
4.00
1.37
1.25
56
66
9
7th Jun
1849
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1074
1033
5.42
55.41%
6.00
2.14
1.33
1.42
56
66
8
11th Sep
1849
Younger, Wm.
80/-
Mild
1074
1038
4.76
48.65%
6.00
2.05
1.25
1.33
55
68
9
15th Mar
1848
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1075
1033
5.56
56.00%
3.38
1.14
2
58
67
7
20th Mar
1847
Younger, Wm.
80/-
Mild
1076
1036
5.29
52.63%
4.00
1.44
1.33
1.33
58
67
8
6th Mar
1847
Younger, Wm.
80/-
Mild
1077
1033
5.82
57.14%
4.00
1.37
1.33
57
66
9
Average
1073.1
1033.4
5.26
54.32%
4.22
1.51
1.53
1.34
57.1
66.5
7.8
difference
-2.5
4.9
-1.09
-8.38%
-4.16
-1.20
-0.57
-0.66
-3.00
-4.9
-6.8
0.3
Sources:
Truman brewing record document numbers B/THB/C/122 and B/THB/C/127 held at the London Metropolitan Archives
William Younger brewing record document number WY/6/1/2/3 held at the Scottish Brewing Archive
Barclay Perkins brewing record document number ACC/2305/1/541 held at the London Metropolitan Archives
Whitbread LMA/4453/D/01/004 brewing record document number held at the London Metropolitan Archives
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-k74Vpvg7uWQ/Tw19tXzZd6I/AAAAAAAAIi0/JgxKITs7hQQ/s320/England_vs_Scotland_part_2_b.JPG (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-k74Vpvg7uWQ/Tw19tXzZd6I/AAAAAAAAIi0/JgxKITs7hQQ/s1600/England_vs_Scotland_part_2_b.JPG)
There's a bit more to work with in the case of the 80/-. I've plenty of London beers of a similar strength. There's no argument about the hopping: only one Younger beer has more hops than the London average. The least heavily-hopped London beer has 20% more than the average of Younger's beers. The average hopping rate of the London beers is about 50% more than the Scottish average. Younger's weaker Milds were generally more lightly hopped than equivalent London Milds in the 1840's.
Moving on to boil times.They're easy-peasy. The average boil times for the first and second worts were more than half an hour shorter in Scotland. Not really much more to say, except: Younger's boil times in the 1840's were much shorter than in England.
Fermentation temperatures are trickier. There's considerable variation amongst the pitching temperatures of the London brewers, between 58º and 64º F. Truman and Barclay Perkins both pitched a degree or two below 60º F, much like Younger. The big difference between England and Scotland is the maximum fermentation temperature. The average max temperature for the Younger's beers is almost 7º F cooler than the London average. The rise in temperature during fermentation was just short of 10º F for the Younger's beers. For London beers, it averaged about 1º F more. Yes, Younger's beers were fermented cooler, but the difference is considerably less than the 10º F usually quoted. And most of the fermentation was at temperatures above 60º F. I'm going to stick my neck out and say: suggests: in the 1840's Younger's Milds were fermented cooler than equivalent London beers, on average around 5 - 6º F.
And I've added a new field to compare: fermentation time. As you'd expect with their lower fermentation temperature, the Scottish beers took a little longer to ferment. Though not by a huge amount: less than half a day on average. But there were a couple of London beers with the same fermentation time - 10 days - as the longest Scottish time. The usual story is that Scottish fermentations could take twice as long as London ones. That does not appear to be the case. All I can say is: in the 1840's Younger's Milds did not take longer to ferment than equivalent London beers.
Almost forgot in all the excitement. Attenuation and ABV. Both are lower for the Scottish beers. Only one Younger's beer has attenuation of over 60%. That's the only one with greater attenuation than the least attenuated London beer. The most attenuated 80/- is still a touch below the least attenuated London beer. The ABV difference is significant - averaging just over 1% less than the London Average. So in the 1840's Younger's Milds were less attenuated and lower in alcohol than London Milds of a similar gravity.
Lot's more to go still. And that's just the 1840's. Think of how many more decades we have to go.https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5445569787371915337-3783122614996920062?l=barclayperkins.blogspot.com
More... (http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2012/01/england-vs-scotland-part-2a-1840s.html)
I bet you though (hoped more like) that I'd forgotten about my painstakingly detailed comparison of English and Scottish beers. Not true at all. I've just been busy elsewhere. Sorry, saving up these juicy titbits until later.
We'll start with Mild. Why? Because I sorted the table entries by style and Mild is the first alphabetically. That's a good enough reason for me.
I've split the beers into gravity bands under 1070º, 1070º-1080º, 1080º-1090º, 1090º-1110º, and over 1110º. First the kiddies' Milds.
How about this, I show you the table then explain what I think it tells us (if anything)? Sound Good? OK, here goes:
Date
Year
Brewer
Beer
Style
OG
FG
ABV
App. Attenuation
lbs hops/ qtr
hops lb/brl
boil time (hours)
boil time (hours)
boil time (hours)
Pitch temp
max. fermentation temp
length of fermentation (days)
5th Mar
1841
Truman
X Ale
Mild
1059.3
14
3.85
58
79.5
19th Apr
1848
Younger, Wm.
42/-
Mild
1043
1012
4.10
72.09%
15.00
2.65
1.33
59
66
4
17th Nov
1849
Younger, Wm.
42/-
Mild
1048
1014
4.50
70.83%
19.25
3.76
1.08
58
65
6
5th Mar
1847
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1061
1028
4.37
54.10%
4.15
1.13
1.33
58
64
5
13th Mar
1847
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1064
1033
4.10
48.44%
4.00
1.22
1.5
1.5
58
65
6
Average
1054.0
1021.8
4.27
61.37%
10.60
2.19
1.31
1.50
58.3
65.0
5.3
difference
-5.3
1021.8
4.3
0.6
-3.4
-1.7
0.0
-14.5
Sources:
Truman brewing record document number B/THB/C/122 held at the London Metropolitan Archives
William Younger brewing record document number WY/6/1/2/3 held at the Scottish Brewing Archive
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QspGH-d4Zzk/Tw19OuC7jvI/AAAAAAAAIik/OF2SIUPSqaI/s320/England_vs_Scotland_part_2_a.JPG (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QspGH-d4Zzk/Tw19OuC7jvI/AAAAAAAAIik/OF2SIUPSqaI/s1600/England_vs_Scotland_part_2_a.JPG)
I had trouble matching any London beers with Younger's 42/- and 60/-. Only one Truman beer had a similar gravity. Which makes it difficult to draw any meaningful conclusions. The Truman's beer has about 3 times as many hops per barrel as the Younger's 60/-. Oddly enough, both were pitched at exactly the same temperature - 58º F. Though the maximum fermentation temperature of the Truman beer was much higher. 14.5º F more, to be precise. But if we look at the hopping of Younger's 42/-, there's not much difference with the hopping of the Truman beer. Especially taking into account the lower gravity of the 42/-. You can see that the hopping rate per quarter (a good way of taking the beer's gravity out of consideration) is at 15 and 19.25 lbs, more than the Truman X Ale.
There's not much we can learn from that. Except that Younger hopped their weaker Milds at wildly differing rates. And that Younger brewed some Milds of lower gravity than those made in London.
Onwards to band two, 1070º-1080º:
Date
Year
Brewer
Beer
Style
OG
FG
ABV
App. Attenuation
lbs hops/ qtr
hops lb/brl
boil time (hours)
boil time (hours)
boil time (hours)
Pitch temp
max. fermentation temp
length of fermentation (days)
12th Feb
1845
Barclay Perkins
X
Mild
1070.6
9.26
3.26
3
57.5
69.5
23rd Jan
1849
Barclay Perkins
X
Mild
1071.5
7.79
2.68
3.5
58.5
72
19th Mar
1841
Whitbread
X
Mild
1074.0
1030.7
5.72
58.43%
9.09
2.74
2
2
3
64
72
7
8th Apr
1841
Whitbread
X
Mild
1075.3
1031.6
5.79
58.09%
7.29
2.20
1.5
2
3
64
73
7
22nd Apr
1841
Whitbread
X
Mild
1075.6
1028.8
6.19
61.90%
5.96
1.88
2
2
3
64
73
7
6th Apr
1841
Whitbread
X
Mild
1075.9
1029.1
6.19
61.68%
9.85
3.00
2
2
3
64
73
6
13th Feb
1841
Truman
X Ale
Mild
1076.2
1027.1
6.49
64.36%
6
1.95
60
74
10
7th Apr
1841
Whitbread
X
Mild
1076.5
1028.0
6.41
63.41%
9.36
3.09
2
2
3
64
73
8
14th Apr
1841
Whitbread
X
Mild
1076.7
1028.5
6.38
62.82%
9.42
3.14
2
2
3
64
73
8
13th Apr
1841
Whitbread
X
Mild
1076.7
1029.9
6.19
61.01%
7.53
2.44
1.5
2
3
64
73.5
6
20th Apr
1841
Whitbread
X
Mild
1077.0
1030.7
6.12
60.07%
7.45
2.36
1.5
2
3
64
73
6
14th Jan
1846
Truman
X Ale
Mild
1077.3
1023.3
7.15
69.89%
14.0
4.53
59
76.25
10
14th Mar
1846
Truman
X Ale
Mild
1079.8
1025.5
7.18
68.06%
6.0
1.94
59
76.5
8
Average
1075.6
1028.5
6.35
62.70%
8.39
2.71
2.10
2.00
3.00
62.0
73.2
7.5
4th Mar
1847
Younger, Wm.
80/-
Mild
1071
1030
5.42
57.75%
4.17
1.36
1.5
59
67
8
28th Feb
1848
Younger, Wm.
80/-
Mild
1071
1036
4.63
49.30%
4.00
1.86
1.25
1.25
57
67
8
11th Jul
1848
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1071
1032
5.16
54.93%
7.00
2.36
1.25
59
69
7
19th Jan
1849
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1071
1033
5.03
53.52%
3.85
1.25
1.25
57
65
8
7th Oct
1848
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1072
1036
4.76
50.00%
3.43
1.25
1.5
61
66
7
9th Oct
1848
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1072
1032
5.29
55.56%
3.18
1.05
1.66
57
69
8
29th Dec
1848
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1072
1035
4.89
51.39%
3.71
1.29
1.5
57
64
8
25th Jan
1849
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1072
1024
6.35
66.67%
3.48
1.18
1.25
56
65
7
16th Nov
1849
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1072
1032
5.29
55.56%
1.29
1.25
2
57
65
7
9th Jan
1849
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1073
1033
5.29
54.79%
3.54
1.18
2
56
67
8
4th Apr
1849
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1073
1034
5.16
53.42%
3.33
1.11
2
56
66
8
8th Sep
1849
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1073
1033
5.29
54.79%
6.00
2.03
1.25
1.25
56
69
8
8th Mar
1847
Younger, Wm.
80/-
Mild
1074
1037
4.89
50.00%
4.00
1.38
1.17
1.33
56
64
10
16th Mar
1847
Younger, Wm.
80/-
Mild
1074
1032
5.56
56.76%
8.00
2.74
1.5
1.5
58
67
8
19th Feb
1848
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1074
1037
4.89
50.00%
3.33
1.18
2
57
66
6
11th Mar
1848
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1074
1033
5.42
55.41%
3.25
1.14
2
58
66
6
3rd Apr
1849
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1074
1033
5.42
55.41%
4.00
1.37
1.25
56
66
9
7th Jun
1849
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1074
1033
5.42
55.41%
6.00
2.14
1.33
1.42
56
66
8
11th Sep
1849
Younger, Wm.
80/-
Mild
1074
1038
4.76
48.65%
6.00
2.05
1.25
1.33
55
68
9
15th Mar
1848
Younger, Wm.
60/-
Mild
1075
1033
5.56
56.00%
3.38
1.14
2
58
67
7
20th Mar
1847
Younger, Wm.
80/-
Mild
1076
1036
5.29
52.63%
4.00
1.44
1.33
1.33
58
67
8
6th Mar
1847
Younger, Wm.
80/-
Mild
1077
1033
5.82
57.14%
4.00
1.37
1.33
57
66
9
Average
1073.1
1033.4
5.26
54.32%
4.22
1.51
1.53
1.34
57.1
66.5
7.8
difference
-2.5
4.9
-1.09
-8.38%
-4.16
-1.20
-0.57
-0.66
-3.00
-4.9
-6.8
0.3
Sources:
Truman brewing record document numbers B/THB/C/122 and B/THB/C/127 held at the London Metropolitan Archives
William Younger brewing record document number WY/6/1/2/3 held at the Scottish Brewing Archive
Barclay Perkins brewing record document number ACC/2305/1/541 held at the London Metropolitan Archives
Whitbread LMA/4453/D/01/004 brewing record document number held at the London Metropolitan Archives
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-k74Vpvg7uWQ/Tw19tXzZd6I/AAAAAAAAIi0/JgxKITs7hQQ/s320/England_vs_Scotland_part_2_b.JPG (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-k74Vpvg7uWQ/Tw19tXzZd6I/AAAAAAAAIi0/JgxKITs7hQQ/s1600/England_vs_Scotland_part_2_b.JPG)
There's a bit more to work with in the case of the 80/-. I've plenty of London beers of a similar strength. There's no argument about the hopping: only one Younger beer has more hops than the London average. The least heavily-hopped London beer has 20% more than the average of Younger's beers. The average hopping rate of the London beers is about 50% more than the Scottish average. Younger's weaker Milds were generally more lightly hopped than equivalent London Milds in the 1840's.
Moving on to boil times.They're easy-peasy. The average boil times for the first and second worts were more than half an hour shorter in Scotland. Not really much more to say, except: Younger's boil times in the 1840's were much shorter than in England.
Fermentation temperatures are trickier. There's considerable variation amongst the pitching temperatures of the London brewers, between 58º and 64º F. Truman and Barclay Perkins both pitched a degree or two below 60º F, much like Younger. The big difference between England and Scotland is the maximum fermentation temperature. The average max temperature for the Younger's beers is almost 7º F cooler than the London average. The rise in temperature during fermentation was just short of 10º F for the Younger's beers. For London beers, it averaged about 1º F more. Yes, Younger's beers were fermented cooler, but the difference is considerably less than the 10º F usually quoted. And most of the fermentation was at temperatures above 60º F. I'm going to stick my neck out and say: suggests: in the 1840's Younger's Milds were fermented cooler than equivalent London beers, on average around 5 - 6º F.
And I've added a new field to compare: fermentation time. As you'd expect with their lower fermentation temperature, the Scottish beers took a little longer to ferment. Though not by a huge amount: less than half a day on average. But there were a couple of London beers with the same fermentation time - 10 days - as the longest Scottish time. The usual story is that Scottish fermentations could take twice as long as London ones. That does not appear to be the case. All I can say is: in the 1840's Younger's Milds did not take longer to ferment than equivalent London beers.
Almost forgot in all the excitement. Attenuation and ABV. Both are lower for the Scottish beers. Only one Younger's beer has attenuation of over 60%. That's the only one with greater attenuation than the least attenuated London beer. The most attenuated 80/- is still a touch below the least attenuated London beer. The ABV difference is significant - averaging just over 1% less than the London Average. So in the 1840's Younger's Milds were less attenuated and lower in alcohol than London Milds of a similar gravity.
Lot's more to go still. And that's just the 1840's. Think of how many more decades we have to go.https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5445569787371915337-3783122614996920062?l=barclayperkins.blogspot.com
More... (http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2012/01/england-vs-scotland-part-2a-1840s.html)