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28-10-2011, 07:23
Visit the Shut up about Barclay Perkins site (http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2011/10/william-youngers-porter-and-stout-1868.html)
There were some questions about William Younger's Porter and Stout grists in reaction to the last Let's Brew recipe (http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2011/10/lets-brew-wednesday-1868-william_26.html). Today we're going to look at them in more detail and hopefully provide fuller answers.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3m7DJi8J-ZI/TqkzUIqfLOI/AAAAAAAAIRY/EmMlajMW7TY/s320/Younger_Scotch_Stout.JPG (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3m7DJi8J-ZI/TqkzUIqfLOI/AAAAAAAAIRY/EmMlajMW7TY/s1600/Younger_Scotch_Stout.JPG)
Looking at Porters from outside London is a strange experience. I'm so used to the London way of doing things. It makes these beer look quite odd.
I mentioned in the original post that there were two obvious differences with London-brewed Porters:
Younger's were lower gravity
Younger's brewed one Porter and one Stout while London brewers had several Stouts
Looking in greater detail, there are further dissimilarities. The attenuation of Younger's Porter is low, a little either side of 60%. At the same period, Whitbread's Porter was 70-75% attenuated. And at least 7.5% ABV. While none of Younger's is even 4% ABV.
Then there are the grists. Again, the dissimilarities are striking. Younger's grists have more variation and the proportion of dark malts is higher in most cases. Younger's used amber malt but no brown malt. Amongst the London brewers it was the other way around. Younger's Porter was less heavily hopped but its Stout was hopped about the same as the London beers. (Using lbs per quarter to iron out gravity differences. Younger's Stout had 12 - 14 lbs per quarter, The London brewers - if we exclude the Export Stout - 12.5 yto 18 lbs.)
Looking at other details (anal-retentive is my middle name), Younger's boiling times were longer, but their pitching temperatures were about the same. Interestingly, Younger fermented their Porter and Stout differently to their other beers. They pitched 3 or 4º warmer and the fermentation time was shorter by a couple of days. It looks as if they are mimicing London practice in that regard.
One final point. Every single one of the Younger's beers, with the exception of the bottling Porter, was vatted. It's not as easy to tell how the London beers were treated, but I think it's safe to assume that anything with the word Runner in its name wasn't vatted.
Nothing more comes to mind so here are the tables:
William Younger Porter and Stout 1868 - 1869
Date
Year
Beer
Style
OG
FG
ABV
App. Attenuation
lbs hops/ qtr
hops lb/brl
dry hops (oz / barrel)
boil time (hours)
boil time (hours)
Pitch temp
max. fermentation temp
length of fermentation (days)
pale malt
black malt
amber malt
12th Sep
1868
Bg
Porter
1046
1020
3.44
56.52%
8.00
1.45
3
61º
69º
3 + 2
92.25%
7.75%
27th Apr
1869
BS
Porter
1041
1017
3.18
58.54%
7.69
1.18
2.5
3
61º
66º
2 + 3
43.43%
13.13%
43.43%
6th Feb
1869
P
Porter
1048
1018
3.97
62.50%
2.75
62º
67º
2 + 1
67.36%
10.18%
22.45%
11th Dec
1869
BS
Porter
1042
1018
3.18
57.14%
7.50
1.46
2.5
3
61º
67º
2 + 3
67.36%
10.18%
22.45%
21st Nov
1868
DBS
Stout
1062
1014
6.35
77.42%
12.22
3.47
2
3
62º
74º
3 + 4
81.25%
5.85%
12.90%
28th Nov
1868
DBS
Stout
1064
1018
6.09
71.88%
11.43
3.33
20.00
2.25
62º
73º
3 + 3
81.95%
5.63%
12.42%
3rd Dec
1869
DBS
Stout
1066
1019
6.22
71.21%
12.76
4.11
2.5
3
61º
75º
3 + 4
76.33%
5.50%
18.17%
4th Dec
1869
DBS
Stout
1066
1020
6.09
69.70%
14.23
3.74
2.5
3
62º
74º
3 + 4
73.43%
6.17%
20.40%
15th Dec
1869
DBS
Stout
1065
1018
6.22
72.31%
13.33
3.83
17.02
2.25
3
62º
72º
3 + 4
63.97%
6.04%
29.99%
27th Dec
1869
DBS
Stout
1067
1021
6.09
68.66%
14.23
3.78
2.25
3
60º
72º
4 + 3
62.47%
6.30%
31.23%
Source:
William Younger brewing record document WY/6/1/2/21 held at the Scottish Brewing Archive
Notes:
Assuming 336 lbs for a qtr of pale malt, 254 lbs for black malt and 280 lbs for amber malt
Fermentation time is fermentation + cleansing.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-XQmy1iZXSdk/Tqktk4gWY6I/AAAAAAAAIRI/4mwQsXDIDfQ/s320/William_Younger_Porter_and_Stout_1868_1869.JPG (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-XQmy1iZXSdk/Tqktk4gWY6I/AAAAAAAAIRI/4mwQsXDIDfQ/s1600/William_Younger_Porter_and_Stout_1868_1869.JPG)
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-P9wDahurCiE/TqkzKS0AWrI/AAAAAAAAIRQ/z0FCiD54FLk/s320/London_Porter_and_Stout_1865_1871.JPG (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-P9wDahurCiE/TqkzKS0AWrI/AAAAAAAAIRQ/z0FCiD54FLk/s1600/London_Porter_and_Stout_1865_1871.JPG)
London Porter and Stout 1865 - 1871
Date
Year
Brewer
Beer
Style
OG
FG
ABV
App. Attenuation
lbs hops/ qtr
hops lb/brl
boil time (hours)
boil time (hours)
boil time (hours)
Pitch temp
pale malt
brown malt
black malt
caramel
sugar
13th Jan
1868
Whitbread
K
Porter
1057.1
1016.6
5.35
70.87%
19.91
5.08
1.5
2
2
64º
79.87%
16.10%
4.03%
10th Jan
1868
Whitbread
P
Porter
1048.8
1011.9
4.87
75.57%
9.91
2.23
1.5
2
2
64º
55.58%
15.76%
5.25%
23.41%
24th Aug
1868
Whitbread
SS
Stout
1082.3
1029.9
6.93
63.64%
13.67
5.52
1.5
2
2.5
62º
72.65%
14.64%
3.66%
9.05%
24th Aug
1868
Whitbread
SSS
Stout
1101.4
1048.8
6.96
51.91%
13.67
6.80
1.5
2
2.5
62º
72.65%
14.64%
3.66%
9.05%
14th Oct
1868
Whitbread
xp S
Stout
1070.9
1023.5
6.27
66.80%
20.05
6.62
1.5
2
2
62º
79.87%
16.10%
4.03%
18th Mar
1865
Barclay Perkins
TT
Porter
1058.2
1018.5
5.25
68.20%
15.14
3.69
65.5º
83.41%
13.10%
3.49%
5th Jul
1870
Truman
Runner
Porter
1056.8
1016.6
5.31
70.73%
10.3
2.64
62º
85.34%
9.77%
4.89%
21st Dec
1870
Truman
Bottling Porter
Porter
1060.4
1013.9
6.16
77.06%
18.2
5.14
60º
86.06%
9.29%
4.65%
23rd Nov
1870
Truman
Country Runner
Porter
1062.3
1011.9
6.67
80.89%
13.7
3.53
59º
76.01%
8.21%
4.93%
10.86%
16th Mar
1871
Truman
Keeping
Porter
1067.3
1016.6
6.71
75.31%
16.5
4.84
58º
89.53%
9.67%
0.81%
6th Jul
1870
Truman
Running Stout
Stout
1072.0
1020.8
6.78
71.15%
14.0
5.03
58º
88.88%
6.95%
4.17%
4th Jul
1870
Truman
Double Stout
Stout
1079.5
1022.2
7.59
72.13%
12.5
5.14
60º
89.29%
6.98%
3.72%
4th Jul
1870
Truman
Imperial
Stout
1083.7
1023.5
7.95
71.85%
12.5
5.40
60º
89.29%
6.98%
3.72%
17th Nov
1870
Truman
Double Export Stout
Stout
1092.0
1020.8
9.42
77.41%
12.5
5.89
58º
81.28%
14.63%
4.10%
Sources:
Whitbread brewing records document numbers LMA/4453/D/09/061 and LMA/4453/D/09/062 held at the London Metropolitan Archives
Barclay Perkins brewing record document number ACC/2305/01/546 held at the London Metropolitan Archives
Truman brewing record document number B/THB/C/72 held at the London Metropolitan Archives
Notes:
Assuming 336 lbs for a qtr of pale malt, 254 lbs for black malt and brown malt
https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5445569787371915337-8135305652568173940?l=barclayperkins.blogspot.com
More... (http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2011/10/william-youngers-porter-and-stout-1868.html)
There were some questions about William Younger's Porter and Stout grists in reaction to the last Let's Brew recipe (http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2011/10/lets-brew-wednesday-1868-william_26.html). Today we're going to look at them in more detail and hopefully provide fuller answers.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3m7DJi8J-ZI/TqkzUIqfLOI/AAAAAAAAIRY/EmMlajMW7TY/s320/Younger_Scotch_Stout.JPG (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3m7DJi8J-ZI/TqkzUIqfLOI/AAAAAAAAIRY/EmMlajMW7TY/s1600/Younger_Scotch_Stout.JPG)
Looking at Porters from outside London is a strange experience. I'm so used to the London way of doing things. It makes these beer look quite odd.
I mentioned in the original post that there were two obvious differences with London-brewed Porters:
Younger's were lower gravity
Younger's brewed one Porter and one Stout while London brewers had several Stouts
Looking in greater detail, there are further dissimilarities. The attenuation of Younger's Porter is low, a little either side of 60%. At the same period, Whitbread's Porter was 70-75% attenuated. And at least 7.5% ABV. While none of Younger's is even 4% ABV.
Then there are the grists. Again, the dissimilarities are striking. Younger's grists have more variation and the proportion of dark malts is higher in most cases. Younger's used amber malt but no brown malt. Amongst the London brewers it was the other way around. Younger's Porter was less heavily hopped but its Stout was hopped about the same as the London beers. (Using lbs per quarter to iron out gravity differences. Younger's Stout had 12 - 14 lbs per quarter, The London brewers - if we exclude the Export Stout - 12.5 yto 18 lbs.)
Looking at other details (anal-retentive is my middle name), Younger's boiling times were longer, but their pitching temperatures were about the same. Interestingly, Younger fermented their Porter and Stout differently to their other beers. They pitched 3 or 4º warmer and the fermentation time was shorter by a couple of days. It looks as if they are mimicing London practice in that regard.
One final point. Every single one of the Younger's beers, with the exception of the bottling Porter, was vatted. It's not as easy to tell how the London beers were treated, but I think it's safe to assume that anything with the word Runner in its name wasn't vatted.
Nothing more comes to mind so here are the tables:
William Younger Porter and Stout 1868 - 1869
Date
Year
Beer
Style
OG
FG
ABV
App. Attenuation
lbs hops/ qtr
hops lb/brl
dry hops (oz / barrel)
boil time (hours)
boil time (hours)
Pitch temp
max. fermentation temp
length of fermentation (days)
pale malt
black malt
amber malt
12th Sep
1868
Bg
Porter
1046
1020
3.44
56.52%
8.00
1.45
3
61º
69º
3 + 2
92.25%
7.75%
27th Apr
1869
BS
Porter
1041
1017
3.18
58.54%
7.69
1.18
2.5
3
61º
66º
2 + 3
43.43%
13.13%
43.43%
6th Feb
1869
P
Porter
1048
1018
3.97
62.50%
2.75
62º
67º
2 + 1
67.36%
10.18%
22.45%
11th Dec
1869
BS
Porter
1042
1018
3.18
57.14%
7.50
1.46
2.5
3
61º
67º
2 + 3
67.36%
10.18%
22.45%
21st Nov
1868
DBS
Stout
1062
1014
6.35
77.42%
12.22
3.47
2
3
62º
74º
3 + 4
81.25%
5.85%
12.90%
28th Nov
1868
DBS
Stout
1064
1018
6.09
71.88%
11.43
3.33
20.00
2.25
62º
73º
3 + 3
81.95%
5.63%
12.42%
3rd Dec
1869
DBS
Stout
1066
1019
6.22
71.21%
12.76
4.11
2.5
3
61º
75º
3 + 4
76.33%
5.50%
18.17%
4th Dec
1869
DBS
Stout
1066
1020
6.09
69.70%
14.23
3.74
2.5
3
62º
74º
3 + 4
73.43%
6.17%
20.40%
15th Dec
1869
DBS
Stout
1065
1018
6.22
72.31%
13.33
3.83
17.02
2.25
3
62º
72º
3 + 4
63.97%
6.04%
29.99%
27th Dec
1869
DBS
Stout
1067
1021
6.09
68.66%
14.23
3.78
2.25
3
60º
72º
4 + 3
62.47%
6.30%
31.23%
Source:
William Younger brewing record document WY/6/1/2/21 held at the Scottish Brewing Archive
Notes:
Assuming 336 lbs for a qtr of pale malt, 254 lbs for black malt and 280 lbs for amber malt
Fermentation time is fermentation + cleansing.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-XQmy1iZXSdk/Tqktk4gWY6I/AAAAAAAAIRI/4mwQsXDIDfQ/s320/William_Younger_Porter_and_Stout_1868_1869.JPG (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-XQmy1iZXSdk/Tqktk4gWY6I/AAAAAAAAIRI/4mwQsXDIDfQ/s1600/William_Younger_Porter_and_Stout_1868_1869.JPG)
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-P9wDahurCiE/TqkzKS0AWrI/AAAAAAAAIRQ/z0FCiD54FLk/s320/London_Porter_and_Stout_1865_1871.JPG (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-P9wDahurCiE/TqkzKS0AWrI/AAAAAAAAIRQ/z0FCiD54FLk/s1600/London_Porter_and_Stout_1865_1871.JPG)
London Porter and Stout 1865 - 1871
Date
Year
Brewer
Beer
Style
OG
FG
ABV
App. Attenuation
lbs hops/ qtr
hops lb/brl
boil time (hours)
boil time (hours)
boil time (hours)
Pitch temp
pale malt
brown malt
black malt
caramel
sugar
13th Jan
1868
Whitbread
K
Porter
1057.1
1016.6
5.35
70.87%
19.91
5.08
1.5
2
2
64º
79.87%
16.10%
4.03%
10th Jan
1868
Whitbread
P
Porter
1048.8
1011.9
4.87
75.57%
9.91
2.23
1.5
2
2
64º
55.58%
15.76%
5.25%
23.41%
24th Aug
1868
Whitbread
SS
Stout
1082.3
1029.9
6.93
63.64%
13.67
5.52
1.5
2
2.5
62º
72.65%
14.64%
3.66%
9.05%
24th Aug
1868
Whitbread
SSS
Stout
1101.4
1048.8
6.96
51.91%
13.67
6.80
1.5
2
2.5
62º
72.65%
14.64%
3.66%
9.05%
14th Oct
1868
Whitbread
xp S
Stout
1070.9
1023.5
6.27
66.80%
20.05
6.62
1.5
2
2
62º
79.87%
16.10%
4.03%
18th Mar
1865
Barclay Perkins
TT
Porter
1058.2
1018.5
5.25
68.20%
15.14
3.69
65.5º
83.41%
13.10%
3.49%
5th Jul
1870
Truman
Runner
Porter
1056.8
1016.6
5.31
70.73%
10.3
2.64
62º
85.34%
9.77%
4.89%
21st Dec
1870
Truman
Bottling Porter
Porter
1060.4
1013.9
6.16
77.06%
18.2
5.14
60º
86.06%
9.29%
4.65%
23rd Nov
1870
Truman
Country Runner
Porter
1062.3
1011.9
6.67
80.89%
13.7
3.53
59º
76.01%
8.21%
4.93%
10.86%
16th Mar
1871
Truman
Keeping
Porter
1067.3
1016.6
6.71
75.31%
16.5
4.84
58º
89.53%
9.67%
0.81%
6th Jul
1870
Truman
Running Stout
Stout
1072.0
1020.8
6.78
71.15%
14.0
5.03
58º
88.88%
6.95%
4.17%
4th Jul
1870
Truman
Double Stout
Stout
1079.5
1022.2
7.59
72.13%
12.5
5.14
60º
89.29%
6.98%
3.72%
4th Jul
1870
Truman
Imperial
Stout
1083.7
1023.5
7.95
71.85%
12.5
5.40
60º
89.29%
6.98%
3.72%
17th Nov
1870
Truman
Double Export Stout
Stout
1092.0
1020.8
9.42
77.41%
12.5
5.89
58º
81.28%
14.63%
4.10%
Sources:
Whitbread brewing records document numbers LMA/4453/D/09/061 and LMA/4453/D/09/062 held at the London Metropolitan Archives
Barclay Perkins brewing record document number ACC/2305/01/546 held at the London Metropolitan Archives
Truman brewing record document number B/THB/C/72 held at the London Metropolitan Archives
Notes:
Assuming 336 lbs for a qtr of pale malt, 254 lbs for black malt and brown malt
https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/5445569787371915337-8135305652568173940?l=barclayperkins.blogspot.com
More... (http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2011/10/william-youngers-porter-and-stout-1868.html)