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RogerB
19-01-2010, 09:46
Doing a bit of research for the Lost Pubs Project website brought up an old local pub in Dartford called the Masons Arms - shut for some years now. In the day when I could see straight and my hands didn't shake so much I was part of 2 sucessful darts teams in the Windmill, Dartford. One night we were playing an away game at the Masons and a huge fight broke out amongst the customers with tables and chairs flying everywhere. It was probably the biggest non football ruck I have ever witnessed in a pub, something like the old wild west saloon brawls that virtually ended up in the street outside. I should hasten to add that it was nothing to do with us and we didn't get involved, in fact to my knowledge I have never thrown or taken a punch in a pub in my life, yet.

I also remember sitting in the Windmill once and a guy came in and for some private reason started to punch the living daylights out of another guy who just sat there taking it. When the punches stopped he looked up and said "if that's the best you can do you'd better f*ck off now" and carried on with his pint. The aggressor looked stunned and promptly left. A treasured pub moment.

Any other punch up memories out there...

hopwas
19-01-2010, 10:02
Any other punch up memories out there...

Too many to mention memorable punch ups.

I'll be back after I get back from Birmingham later today.

Hoppy

hondo
19-01-2010, 10:29
cctv pictures just in

122

oldboots
19-01-2010, 10:37
I obviously haven't lived, I've never seen a big pub fight, I'm the one under the table. :eek:

The closest I got to being involved was a time I was going to an upstairs bar when five blokes rushed past me and when I got to the door at the top I had to step over the guy they'd just bottled, still that was in Southampton.

runningdog
19-01-2010, 10:58
Any other punch up memories out there...

I'll say. I bet you saw this coming MrB, but then I'll not be the only one. Years ago, 1980's I should think, I'm just running on memory here, there was a pub called the Rossmore Arms, just outside Poole. It was a nice looking psuedo-Tudor sort of place, from the outside it it look a bit upper-market, genteel even. Wrong. Inside it could be the pub from hell.
It was during my Guinness days, they did a decent pint of the stuff so I was often there lunchtimes. Trouble was, the Rossmore was in the middle of council-estateland, smack between two rival areas, they argued and fought at the drop of a hat. More of a problem were the travellers from the site a mile or so away and their rivals from another estate about two miles up the road. Many of these guys were bare-knuckle fighters and serious ones at that. The locals were hard, the travellers harder, the boxers harder still. Add the police and students from the WallyColly nearby and something was always in the air.
Round one was during a darts match, the visiting team contained a son of one of the boxers. They were too good for the locals, white-washed them, won the gallon as well. Some of the locals followed the lad into the carpark, what they intended I don't know but in the end they beat him up. It was 8-1 or 3-1 depending on whose side the teller was on. The lad, it seems, gave a good account of himself. The police took him home, told everyone not to do anything silly, then went away and settled down to wait. The landlord boarded up his windows.......:drinkup:

Sorry about this but I've got pop out, will regale you with Rounds 2 and 3 later:o:mad::drinkup::drinkup:

aleandhearty
19-01-2010, 11:00
cctv pictures just in

OK. Here's a challenge. Can anybody name the film? I couldn't enlarge the thumbnail without it blurring too much, but is that Ronald Reagan in the days when he was compos mentis?

RogerB
19-01-2010, 11:24
I can't even see a thumbnail!

I thought he appeared as a newspaper reporter in the Bogart boxing movie The Harder They Fall but a quick scan of the Internet Movie Data Base website doesn't back me up.

Conrad
19-01-2010, 12:20
Well I have no idea what the picture is of, don't think it is Ronnie though looking at it in a higher res:
123 (http://blog.icepick.co.za/index.php/2009/03/10/10-strange-sports-from-around-the-world/)

As to bar fights, sadly been in pub where some lass was glassed, have to admit I kept my nose out so no idea what that was about (Dave was there as well), and back in my student days I was evicted from the union bar for sort of starting a fight (I side-stepped as someone tried to give me a vigorous push).

Edit: Click the thumbnail to see the larger size image.

oldboots
19-01-2010, 12:35
OK. Here's a challenge. Can anybody name the film? I couldn't enlarge the thumbnail without it blurring too much, but is that Ronald Reagan in the days when he was compos mentis?

I thought it might be James Stewart in Destry Rides Again, but looking at it a bit closer it may still be Ronnie

"the president's brain is missing" Reagan or perhaps Robert Ryan in one of his many westerns. :confused:

Of course it could be Running Dog having a fine old time in his USA days :D

RogerB
19-01-2010, 12:43
Ah. I can see what you're all on about now! :whistle:. I do like my old westerns but no idea on the pic at the moment.

aleandhearty
19-01-2010, 13:40
In the seventies and early eighties there used to be an absolute hole of a bar/ nightclub, in Wakefield, called Heppy's. If I say it used to hold 'fish and strip' events I'm sure you get the idea. Even on 'normal' nights the admission ticket was redeemable for a burger, or a chip butty. As I say, a class joint.

One night whilst I was shuffling on the dancefloor, a young woman nearby went to berate her boyfriend. He promptly lamped her one and she was lifted clean off her feet. Amazingly, she got up apparently unscathed and went and had another go at him! Again she went flying across the floor. Getting up this time she decided enough was enough and left. I've never forgotten how tough that young lass must have been and the fact that ten seconds later it was like it had never happened.

Oggwyn Trench
19-01-2010, 14:09
The funniest one i remember was in the Blue Pig in Trench , about 6 of us were sitting around the bar chatting when a lad in his early 20s walked in , " my girlfriends left me " he announced " so i`m going to take it out on one of you , come on hit me " he pushed one of the lads at the end of the bar and was told to "f**k off , he went around everybody with the same response till he got to Cannon at the end of the bar . Cannon was in his late 50s and about 5 foot 5 tall , but was an old school trucker from the days before power steering , his forearms are bigger than my thighs , "come on granddad hit me" screamed the lad , so he did , the crunch of fist on jaw was matched by the crunch of the door breaking from 12 stone of KOd lad hitting it horizontaly . Canon turned around finished his pint and said " well he did ask me to hit him" we all cracked up , funny i still see the lad around but he seems very sheepish.

ROBCamra
19-01-2010, 15:37
In the seventies and early eighties there used to be an absolute hole of a bar/ nightclub, in Wakefield, called Heppy's. If I say it used to hold 'fish and strip' events I'm sure you get the idea. Even on 'normal' nights the admission ticket was redeemable for a burger, or a chip butty. As I say, a class joint.

One night whilst I was shuffling on the dancefloor, a young woman nearby went to berate her boyfriend. He promptly lamped her one and she was lifted clean off her feet. Amazingly, she got up apparently unscathed and went and had another go at him! Again she went flying across the floor. Getting up this time she decided enough was enough and left. I've never forgotten how tough that young lass must have been and the fact that ten seconds later it was like it had never happened.

Are you sure it wasn't called "Hoppys" :D :whistle:

Eddie86
19-01-2010, 18:08
We've had a guy walk in, punch one of the semi-regulars onto the floor with one punch, turn around and walk out again.

When the semi-reg got up, we asked what that was about on a quiet Sunday afternoon. His reply:

'O, I deserved it. Surprised it wasn't last week actually'

Nothing more was said about it!

hopwas
19-01-2010, 21:01
Are you sure it wasn't called "Hoppys" :D :whistle:

You called?... :whistle:

runningdog
19-01-2010, 22:20
Edit: Click the thumbnail to see the larger size image.

Nah, it ain't Ron and it ain't Jimmy. Not that I know who it is, there's something scratching the back of me head, but I can't quite get to it. Don't hold yer breath though,lke the old grey mare, me memory ain't what it used ter be, an it never was much cop.
Sorry to keep everyone waiting for the next instalment of the Rossmore saga, but one of me dogs is badly injured and I'm waiting for a call from the vet..........

arwkrite
19-01-2010, 23:13
Considering I was a copper for seven years it may seem strange that I was never involved in a large pub brawl. But I was trained by old school coppers most who had done brave deeds in WW2 and could not see the point of being finished off by a bunch of drunks when the Germans had tried and failed. If you walked slow enough and went the long way round it was normally all over bar the shouting. Landlords were not normally bothered because it would not be mentioned as a case of disorder at the Licensing Sessions. I do remember a gypsy wedding in Wem making an awful mess of the town function room. The family heads , I understand, payed up for the damage and so the caravans were allowed on their way.Well it was only a family misunderstanding:whistle:
Most importantly it was unusual for the combatants in pub fights to use lethal weapons. In small towns there is no where to hide and you are probably beating the c""p out of your cousin anyway.:love:

Conrad
20-01-2010, 11:30
I was wondering if you would have any stories knowing that you were an x-copper.

Amuses me, your version sounds far more like the sort of Police work seen in Life on Mars, which is also the only place I have seen a Party Seven.

runningdog
20-01-2010, 11:32
Right, while it's all quiet on the canine front, I will carry on with the tale of the demise of the Rossmore Arms. Sorry, lads the doors are locked and the windows small.
Everything went very quiet, it got to the point that the landlord was hoping they'd come soon so he could sell some beer. When they did come there were only four of them, even so the outnumbered barstaff and customers together. As about the only cabbie in town who would pick any of them up, they left me out of it. They knocked the landlord and his two mates about for a while, I think they thought they werwe being gentle. Then the police arrived, three of them, one of them a female officer who looked about 14. There was a brief chat, nobody got arrested and we all went home.
The police got loads of flak for taking no action and perhaps it should have ended there, I thought it had. Until I went there on the Sunday evening, on the door were two travellers, well travelling brick walls really, who were only letting their friends in. I was a local, as such I wasn't really welcome. But, they were trying to keep the their idea of a low profile and. in those days. I didn't do low profile plus I had two lurchers with me who not averse to bringing their teeth to the party. After an hour or so it got a bit tasty and me an me dogs beat a hasty, if tactical, retreat and set off home across the common. Thats when I met some of the locals, hellbent on getting their pub back. The rest is legend.
The local lads were mob handed and, as the saying goes, loaded for bear. I've never seen anything like it, there must have been 80 or so combatants wedged into two fairly small bars with an overspill into the car park. The boxers had their fists, their mates made do with anthing they could. There were dogs, axe handles the odd knife or two

Sorry, that was the vet.........

arwkrite
20-01-2010, 12:33
Conrad, I was a copper in the late 60's till mid 70's. A child raised on Dixon of Dock Green ,a teenager who loved "Z Cars". What a shock to the nation that was but as I found out later the actors portrayed a bunch of fairies compared with real Liverpool Coppers. Runningdog should remember the era well cause hes a bit older than me.
Being a copper then was very different to the job now.More of you on the beat, temperamental PYE two piece radios just coming in , you thought nothing of going out on patrol without a radio. Pop in a local shop and the owner never failed to give you use of the phone to call the station. The Station Sergeant could always do it in reverse so we were not in the dark ages. If you came across trouble you were honour bound to deal with it.Back down and the local villains would walk all over you. Whether you lived in a big city or a rural area this held true. If it meant a beating so be it but the villain would know some time in the future he would meet another copper with a score and a matter of pride to settle. A bit like Brothers in Arms but without heavy artillery and collateral damage. There were less rules then and we were expected to use our commonsense. That was more important than having a Uni. degree.
In the last ten years more than 3000 offences have gone on "the book" whereby you can end up with a criminal record and seriously damage your future propects. Most people do not realise the a modern Caution is recorded as being guilty of an offence and there fore you have a criminal record. In my day a Caution would vary from a clip around the ear to a stern warning off the Inspector but most were of the unofficial " I'll be watching you" type.

I am not knocking modern day Police Officers who may not like the term copper. I came in at the end a Policing Era and would not like to be in todays hidebound and over regulated job. I often did my patrol in shirt sleeves no need then for Kevlar jackets. If you got shot they would give you a posthumous George Medal or if you survived a spell behind the Station desk.

Just to give this thread some plausibility coppers back then were known for drinking quite heavily. A number were known alcoholics. Suicides seemed frequent.

Life on Mars ? That ain't the half of it.

:drinkup:To a lot of good men who now walk a crime free beat.

Conrad
20-01-2010, 12:53
Just to give this thread some plausibility coppers back then were known for drinking quite heavily. A number were known alcoholics. Suicides seemed frequent.
:D

I think we should give up believing anything round here has to have plausibility. Thanks for that, it is a subject I actually find quite interesting, I have to admit to regularly popping in to read Inspector Gadgets (http://inspectorgadget.wordpress.com/) blog. I frequently disagree with what he says, but always find it an interesting insight, not a job I envy them these days, mind you I wouldn't have wanted to do it back when you did either :) I might have broken a nail or something.

rd - hope the dogs ok?

hopwas
20-01-2010, 13:39
Right I have knack turn up in pubs in wrong place and wrong time. dont ask me why!

I have quite few memorable punch ups and one of real proper old fashioned brawl in Bull Ring Tavern in Birmingham. I was about order my first pint of the day, suddenly around 20 chavs burst in and started throwing fists with rival gang who was drinking in pub. I was in middle of fight and somehow avoided being punched in face. Escaped through fire dorr in back of the room. As I exited, bar stool went through the glass and couple of cars swerved to avoid the stool. Wisefully I escaped into nearby busy market in order to avoid being interviewed by police.

One year later, after watching West Brom Vs Plymouth and I went back to Brum for quick pint. I decided go to The Newts by New Street Station and ordered pint of bitter. As I started to drink, I could see two set of supporters started to taunt each other. They were Birmingham and Spurs fans. One of fans threw punch and suddenly descended into massive bar brawl which western film would be proud of. Glass ashtrays, chairs and pint glass being thrown in all directions. One glass ashtray just missed my face by inches. I had to run the gauntlet to exit door and leaving my full pint..

arwkrite
20-01-2010, 13:43
A chap took over a good pub in a rural town. He was of good character but no use as a landlord by reason he could not control his customers. The good ones left and all the toe-rags in town moved in, helping themselves to drinks and doing whatever they wanted. We visited and ejected a few but could not be there all the time.It was already on the cards his licence would be objected to next time it came around for renewal.
During a night shift I was told to visit the pub as a phone caller said there was a problem. I walked in the bar, clocked a few drinkers ( at 2am !!!) told them to get out before my ballpoint pen went on a feeding frenzy. I had noticed a strong smell of petrol and one of the departing drinkers said you had better look in the cellar.Down the steps I went thinking perhaps his customers had done for him and the petrol smell now overpowering. There sat the landlord soaked in petrol from the can by his side. "Got a light", he said, " I soaked my match box with the petrol and they won't strike." Pillock, must have got the idea from Buddhist monks who were doing the same in Saigon, Vietnam at the time. He was luckier, disappearing in the back of an ambulance never to be seen again. The pub never again opened as such it became a private hotel with guests only bar. Two night later I attended a car sales lot after someone tried siphoning petrol with a cigarette in his mouth. Being dead this one was not so chatty.

Conrad
20-01-2010, 15:10
Once again, Hoppy demonstrates why you never invite him to a pub you like :)

Two night later I attended a car sales lot after someone tried siphoning petrol with a cigarette in his mouth. Being dead this one was not so chatty.
Shame they didn't have Darwin awards (http://www.darwinawards.com/) (not sure about that site, but should give the idea) back then, that has to be as good as any of the nominations I normally hear. Glad I didn't have to see that though.

Oggwyn Trench
20-01-2010, 18:41
Considering I was a copper for seven years it may seem strange that I was never involved in a large pub brawl. But I was trained by old school coppers most who had done brave deeds in WW2 and could not see the point of being finished off by a bunch of drunks when the Germans had tried and failed. If you walked slow enough and went the long way round it was normally all over bar the shouting. Landlords were not normally bothered because it would not be mentioned as a case of disorder at the Licensing Sessions. I do remember a gypsy wedding in Wem making an awful mess of the town function room. The family heads , I understand, payed up for the damage and so the caravans were allowed on their way.Well it was only a family misunderstanding:whistle:
Most importantly it was unusual for the combatants in pub fights to use lethal weapons. In small towns there is no where to hide and you are probably beating the c""p out of your cousin anyway.:love:

Wem carnival is notorious for punch ups , its as if at 3 o`clock some one says fight time and all the pubs empty , the pubs at the bottom of the street start fighting each other and anyone left standing joins forces and head up the street to start on the pubs at the top of the street , for some reason its not held anymore !!

runningdog
20-01-2010, 20:53
[QUOTE=arwkrite;4931]A chap took over a good pub in a rural town. He was of good character but no use as a landlord by reason he could not control his customers. The good ones left and all the toe-rags in town moved in..... QUOTE]
I thought you were describing BitE for a minute..........:whistle:
Yes I do know what you mean about cops back then. Until the 70's you had to be 6'4" before you could get into the Bournemouth force, and I grew up in the days of the bobby's cape.

Thanks Conrad, she ain't good but it could have been worse, well I thought it was. I will get back to the Rossmore saga when I'm a bit more composed. Sorry about the serial element, it wasn't intentional..........:drinkup::drinkup:

arwkrite
20-01-2010, 22:05
I managed to get a cape off a retiring Sergeant. Nice and warm..much better than those rubbish raincoats that Harold Wilson had us wearing. I was quite short for a copper 5.9'' but was a karate nut as a teenager and I had skinny elbows...nasty things in your ribs.
Wish the dog all the best andtake it easy.

Soup Dragon
20-01-2010, 22:31
i could have punched Sam Alladyce tonight - what a moaner that man is - always has been. Always liked Blackburn, i so hope they ditch him as i can't stand the bloke

Oggwyn Trench
20-01-2010, 22:36
A good mate of mines Grandad was a Copper in the 40s / 50s , he taught us how to inflict excruciating pain to someones ribs/back without leaving a mark , he became a Landlord and no one ever caused trouble in his pub .

hondo
21-01-2010, 08:01
I managed to get a cape off a retiring Sergeant. Nice and warm..much better than those rubbish raincoats that Harold Wilson had us wearing. I was quite short for a copper 5.9'' but was a karate nut as a teenager and I had skinny elbows...nasty things in your ribs.
Wish the dog all the best andtake it easy.

police do seem to be getting younger & smaller

136

oldboots
21-01-2010, 08:09
Just wondering did we ever find out what the film was?

RogerB
21-01-2010, 08:46
Just wondering did we ever find out what the film was?

No - I think we're all still working on it.

arwkrite
21-01-2010, 09:21
What about Tom Mix ? The style of dress is that worn in the early cowboy films. The Ten Gallon Hat was popular then but was later replaced by the Stetson.The shirts also became less fussy.I wonder where Hondo obtained the image? That could provide a clue.

runningdog
21-01-2010, 10:39
What about Tom Mix ? The style of dress is that worn in the early cowboy films. The Ten Gallon Hat was popular then but was later replaced by the Stetson.The shirts also became less fussy.I wonder where Hondo obtained the image? That could provide a clue.

I don't think it was our Tommy, he wasn't that tall, more your Audie Murphy type, same for Roy Rogers. Never saw either of them in a check shirt, but you've nailed down the period I'm sure of that..........

hondo
21-01-2010, 11:58
I just grabbed it of the internet. I've been checking but no info on who it is or what film.:(

Soup Dragon
21-01-2010, 12:32
What about Tom Mix

Wasn't Tom Mix (number 6, for the bingo lot) killed by his own suitcase?

hondo
21-01-2010, 13:45
:eek:

On October 12, 1940, while driving his 1937 Cord Sportsman through the Arizona desert he took a turn too fast, a suitcase broke loose and struck him in the head and his car plunged into a ravine. The ravine was later named "The Tom Mix Wash" in his honor. A plaque at the location reads: "TOM MIX January 6, 1880 - October 12, 1940 Whose spirit left his body on this spot and whose characterization and portrayals in life served to better fix memories of the old west in the minds of living men.".

also appears on the Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band sleeve :whistle:

Soup Dragon
21-01-2010, 15:06
hondo - you are amazing

apart from Hibernian for the cup, you remain the only person on the forum that doesnt actually speak, you post comic clips and Tom Mix comments - you would make an excellent archivist

arwkrite
21-01-2010, 15:12
Watching an old cowboy film on Movies 4 Men 2 ( yes I have better things to do but can't be bothered) and thought I had it cracked ," Lone Ride Ambushed" but no , wrong shirt. This bloke has wore the same shirt for the entire film. I reckon his horse smelt better than he did.
Thanks for the info on Tom Mix and the bizarre manner in which he died. Anyone recall the name of the actress who died when her long scarf caught in the rear wheels of the care she was driving? I thought it was Jean Harlow but she died of uremic poisioning caused by kidney failure.The memory is really going thses days.

Soup Dragon
21-01-2010, 15:15
Isadora Duncan i think Mr A

arwkrite
21-01-2010, 15:36
Cheers Soups thats the one. Known for her dancing so I believe.

Soup Dragon
21-01-2010, 15:45
Cheers Soups thats the one. Known for her dancing so I believe.

If you hang on for half an hour, Mr A, hondo will paste a bit of You-Tube footage of the incident!

I have found some real bizarre incidents when dealing with historic coroner cases - one was the death of a 'dwarf' (PC would now say vertically challenged gentleman) who, whilst loading canvass scenery on the back of a lorry after his comedy troop had finished performing, was blown into the air by a gust of wind that turned the scenery into a kite - he was dropped on his head from a distance and killed instantly - that was in the 20s i think

hondo
22-01-2010, 08:59
the grim reaper returns :moremad:

quite a gal miss Duncan never a dull moment

Adieu, mes amis. Je vais la gloire! . Adieu, mes amis. Je vais l'amour as she may or may not have said :love::pray:

arwkrite
23-01-2010, 00:43
Must be something about dancers. I wandered into a bar in the Dordogne and the place was full of stuff about Josephine Baker. I had heard of her but did not realise what a hero she was. Surprising what you find out about in bars.

oldboots
23-01-2010, 10:15
Surprising what you find out about in bars.

The common room of the University of Life....

runningdog
23-01-2010, 11:25
The common room of the University of Life....

:D...I'll drink to that...:drinkup:

arwkrite
23-01-2010, 14:03
Runingdog ,is there anything you won't drink to ( not counting M of P., Tax Collectors and wheel clampers)? . Just interested thats all.