Plymouth Gin, should it be removed? [Archive]

Conrad

10-05-2011, 15:51

I think the forum is a better place for your comment Farway, it is no different from any complaint review, eg not a review.

As to the venue, it is the sort of thing that I think is fair game as long as it is clearly marked, we have a museum pub on somewhere don't we?

At this point though, if no one has left a decent review on it I am happy to delete, so will await Old Blue's reccy.

As an aside to those who have been chatting on the Pubs without published photos thread, this is a classic example, it was added with a photograph, so not a guarantee of calibre.

Farway

10-05-2011, 15:59

I had a horrible feeling my comments on this one might re-ignite the 'what's allowed to be on the site' debate. I'd also be interested in others' views, and will try to find out tomorrow whether it's actually possible to get a beer either in the cocktail bar or brasserie bits!

It was not just your comments OB, I went past on Saturday and had serious misgivings about this listing, and I also have same about the White Rabbit cafe bar (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/66811/) ,very much closed & barred on Saturday PM, and only seems to be a bus station cafe, with no seating, but as I was only a grockle then local knowledge should prevail in this instance

Conrad

10-05-2011, 16:12

It was not just your comments OB, I went past on Saturday and had serious misgivings about this listing, and I also have same about the White Rabbit cafe bar (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/66811/) ,very much closed & barred on Saturday PM, and only seems to be a bus station cafe, with no seating, but as I was only a grockle then local knowledge should prevail in this instance
I think you may have got the White Rabbit's number slightly wrong: link (http://www.whiterabbituk.com/), which isn't to say it should be on the site :)

Old Blue

10-05-2011, 17:20

I have a lot of misgivings about inconsistency on cafe/bars and bar/restaurants generally. There seem to be loads on the site. Is there a previous thread that got anywhere on that?

I'm alternately toying with (a) proposing an entry for Duttons Cafe Bar in Plymouth, on the grounds that you can get a draught beer there, albeit out of a keg, and it is slightly more of a pub than this one http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/66801/, or b) deleting the latter on the grounds its obviously a cafe bar not a pub.

And slightly uncomfortable about this http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/53279/ being marked as closed whilst lots of similar restaurant/bars retain their listing.

Conrad

10-05-2011, 17:35

It is ground that is frequently stepped over, most recently with the Egham United Services Club (http://forums.pubsgalore.co.uk/showthread.php?6758-Egham-United-Services-Club-should-we-delete).

It is impossible to be consistent, and I think that has to be accepted. Basically if a listing has content then it is far less likely to be deleted, if it is a picture or review then we can be convinced to delete it with a justification. Where there is a review from one of our regular reviewers however I am far more likely to say sod it it can stay on.

I think the thing to keep in mind is that the site is only as good as its contributors, so for me it is far more about them rather than have a directory listing of buildings that no one has any inkling of what sort of place any of them are.

oldboots

10-05-2011, 18:14

Millay

10-05-2011, 22:54

I suppose an answer to this perenial question is to add categories, so that establishments, hopefully only those actually selling alcohol to the public, have some sort of indication of what they are in the "pub" details not just in any review (most non-pubs don't have reviews)

The categories could include; Pub, Club (pay on entry/members only/tennis/rowing/golf/tiddly-winks etc), Hotel bar, Cafe-Bar, Restaurant/Bistro/Brasserie, Museum, Cafe (bus station / rail station / transport caf' /greasy spoon) and so on. It should be searchable of course, so those of us just looking for pubs to drink in can find them and those who just like photographing drinks outlets can be accommodated as well.

Unless I'm missing the irony in your post oldboots my response is no no no. How much more administratively burdomsome do we want to make this site for Conrad and Dave.

From a general perspective, if a venue is included on the site and, irrespective of reviews/photos or the lack of them, we want to visit it then we should do so. If it no longer exists then we should mark it as closed, if it does exist then we should leave a review so that others may be enlightened by our personal opinion.

If we choose not to visit it then fine, but someone else must have decided it is worthy of inclusion so who are we to decree otherwise. The concept of trawling through the site looking for places that we think shouldn't be on there based on driving past it, what someone else says, looking on Google or simply ones own personal interpretation of the word 'pub' baffles me.

Threads like these seem to be becoming more prevalent on the forums and in my opinion the site is poorer for it.

gillhalfpint

11-05-2011, 07:56

Well said Millay. If it's on site with a statement as to what kind of establishment it is, anyone looking gets the relevant gen. End of story. They can make their own minds up as to whether it's a place they want to go to.

Conrad

11-05-2011, 08:37

I have no problem with oldboots suggestion, when I read it initially it made sense. If we could do it in a way similar to areas then we can keep it low maintenance for me and Dave.

Thinking about it a bit more though I think there would be debate on what some venues are. Also there is the issue that I think broadly we are all keen to keep PuG about what we believe are pubs, by adding these categories I can see we would invite museum cafes on by the back door.

I think the way we are working at the moment where we make exceptions as they appear is fine. The only thing I think is that we need to make it clear in the listing that it requires an entry fee of some sort. At this point I don't think filters are needed as I would imagine anyone planning a crawl from the towns pages will look at the pubs summary before making a decision.

Millays attitude towards PuG reflects mine though, enjoying the site and allowing others to do the same is the key thing.

aleandhearty

11-05-2011, 10:18

From a general perspective, if a venue is included on the site......someone else must have decided it is worthy of inclusion so who are we to decree otherwise.

Threads like these seem to be becoming more prevalent on the forums and in my opinion the site is poorer for it.

Firstly, I'd like to echo your sentiment about not overloading Conrad & Dave.

However, I think your argument is a bit simplistic. There are still hundreds of listings that were inherited with the original database that just aren't relevant to the site e.g a B&B with or without photograph is still a B&B. Furthermore, I believe the site has to have some common consensus and core values to let people know what they are working towards. Just because the site is largely community based doesn't necessarily equate with it being all inclusive.

The nature of the site means that realistically we all need to help C&D monitor the content and people will only do that if they know where they stand. Should this venue be included? http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/24230/ Dennis Lloyd obviously thinks it's worthy of inclusion.

Finally I'd like to turn your last point on its head. I think such discussions show the site is evolving and indicate the passionate involvement in Pug, which can only be a good thing.

oldboots

11-05-2011, 10:21

I thought it was "a modest proposal". ;)

In the end I shouldn't mind what is or isn't on the site, Conrad&Dave's site=Conrad&Dave's rules; however I think that one of the better things about this site, as opposed to some we could all name, is the desire for accuracy and quality in reviews and photos among contributors, it does get let down by long lists of venues that nobody wants to review.

Conrad

11-05-2011, 10:42

I agree that there is no problem with these sort of discussions, evolve is a good word, and the site needs to keep doing it.

With regards to The Fort, what a fantastic review :). From my perspective, if someone asks to remove the venue I am happy to remove it, it requires a fee to get in, and so far has not been praised by a regular reviewer (or to put it blatantly, someone we would rather didn't leave the site).

oldboots is right about the long list of venues that no one wants to review, hence I feel more flexible about venues people do want to review. Although instead of review I would say contribute, as I do try and give the photographers representation.

Farway

11-05-2011, 13:22

With regards to The Fort, what a fantastic review :). From my perspective, if someone asks to remove the venue I am happy to remove it, it requires a fee to get in, and so far has not been praised by a regular reviewer (or to put it blatantly, someone we would rather didn't leave the site).

oldboots is right about the long list of venues that no one wants to review, hence I feel more flexible about venues people do want to review. Although instead of review I would say contribute, as I do try and give the photographers representation.

Some places regular contributors just would not go into to review surely? No doubt we all know of pubs in our areas that only a stranger built like the Teminator with the ability to kill as per Kill Bill karate punch would enter. The Fort I think could be a step too far for most, certainly me, but the review is honest, and does state entrance fee required, so whilst it may not appeal to many it just may be the place for some casual visitors to PuG

Old Blue

11-05-2011, 17:28

If it's on site with a statement as to what kind of establishment it is, anyone looking gets the relevant gen. End of story.

That's precisely what I was trying to do. In retrospect I probably shouldn't have started with the words 'this is not a pub' as that evidently led others to think I was asking for it to be deleted. However, my recce today confirmed you can't just get a beer there, so I think this becomes a simple delete. If a member who actually used it wanted to put it back on with a review as an entry which may be of interest to others, even if not a pub, I wouldn't have a problem with that.

Conrad

11-05-2011, 17:33

That's precisely what I was trying to do. In retrospect I probably shouldn't have started with the words 'this is not a pub' as that evidently led others to think I was asking for it to be deleted. However, my recce today confirmed you can't just get a beer there, so I think this becomes a simple delete. If a member who actually used it wanted to put it back on with a review as an entry which may be of interest to others, even if not a pub, I wouldn't have a problem with that.
Now gone and agree with everything you said.

Strongers

11-05-2011, 18:11

Some places regular contributors just would not go into to review surely? No doubt we all know of pubs in our areas that only a stranger built like the Teminator with the ability to kill as per Kill Bill karate punch would enter. The Fort I think could be a step too far for most, certainly me, but the review is honest, and does state entrance fee required, so whilst it may not appeal to many it just may be the place for some casual visitors to PuG

Until I read the review of the Fort I thought that I would go and have a beer in any establishment. I've walked into estates at dusk to visit the local pub and thought that I would never make it out of the area alive let alone the pub. One night I ran down a national speed limit A-road with no path to reach a Harvester that wasn't listed on here. I've had someone threaten and swear at me from a pub doorway as I walked past so I went into the pub through the side door only to get into a conversation with the same moron at the bar.

BUT, I would never go into a pub naked wearing only my trainers as I get really smelly feet if I wear no socks!

Rex_Rattus

11-05-2011, 22:10

And slightly uncomfortable about this http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/53279/ being marked as closed whilst lots of similar restaurant/bars retain their listing.
I asked for this one to be closed, and did so because it is not longer a pub called The Cricketers, but a restaurant (NOT a restaurant/bar) called Tryst. But I don't have strong views on whether it should be closed - if you think it should be re-opened then put in the request, but with a name change as well. I take a slightly different view with restaurants that retain the original name, such as this one: http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22065/ Perhaps I should have asked for that one to be reopened, as I think it has a stronger case than The Tryst - but I didn't, and just posted a comment saying what sort of establishment it now is. I think that suffices to tell people who look at the page what it's like now, and I guess does the trick. Actually I don't think it matters too much, but if others do I'll go along with the consensus.

Old Blue

12-05-2011, 12:59

Thanks Rex, I was wondering about that - though some friends of mine have apparently been successful in getting a beer in the Tryst. I might give it a go myself next time in the area, just to satisfy my curiosity. I may also cheat by taking an attractive young lady with me, to maximise my chances!

I am sure you are right that when a pub becomes something else, it is better to close off the pub without changing it's name to whatever it has become, to preserve the historical pub record.

Coming back to Old Boots' and others' points about loads of stuff on the site that no-one wants to review - it strikes me that an easy way to clear lots of it off would be a mass delete of all Cafe Rouges, La Tascas, and probably about a dozen other chains people could think of that obviously aren't pubs. Few are reviewed, and where they are usually just by someone pointing out it's not a pub. I was toying with the idea of starting a thread proposing that, though there may well have been a previous one from before my time. Only drawbacks I can think of are (a) if photographers want them on, or (b) if we lost a lot of previous pub history by doing that - though I can't see we would if they are only listed as the non-pubs they are now. Would appreciate any thoughts.

Strongers

12-05-2011, 13:21

Cafe Rouge and La Tasca were discussed on this thread (http://forums.pubsgalore.co.uk/showthread.php?1481-Cafe-Rouge).

Conrad

12-05-2011, 15:43

Thanks Strongers.

I will need to chat with Dave to get a consensus, but broadly I am amenable to deleting them.

It does raise an interesting dilemma, technically with many of them you can walk in and get a pint without paying entrance. Whilst I am becoming less fixated on rules, it would be nice to have a justification for deleting them (I know that could be considered a little hypocritical).

There is a cross-section of photography on them, and the photographers aren't really represented on the forum, which is awkward, but if we can justify it I am pretty much at the point where I am willing to delete them.

The other question is can anyone remember reading a decent review of one? And what would we do if we did receive a decent review of one.

At what point does a foody pub become a restaurant with a licence? I think Le Tasca has crossed that point, but I have been in pubs I would primarily go in to eat that I still consider pubs.

Farway

13-05-2011, 07:19

I class myself mainly as photographer & occasional reviewer, and have submitted photo of a cafe rouge, TBH I have never been in one, and it never even crossed my mind that it was anything other than a place you could just get a drink in

Although it may upset the sensibilities of the CAMRA crew I think they should stay

Never seen a La Tasca so unable to comment on them

Round here there are many foody pubs, and like Conrad I go in to eat mainly, but some of them do in fact have real ale, one of which is Hinton Arms (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/13222/) which ticks all boxes although it can never be a "local" as there are just not that many dwellings there to support it these days

Conrad

13-05-2011, 10:39

I have the opposite problem, I have never seen a Cafe Rouge, I think it is over 5 years since I went in a La Tasca, and the only reason I would have bought a drink there is whilst waiting for a table, but it may just be me.

I am equally happy to let them stay, but it would be a pity if they are never reviewed, which I suppose is at the back of my mind.

Blackthorn

13-05-2011, 13:49

I have the opposite problem, I have never seen a Cafe Rouge.

Haven't you ever been to Cabot Circus? Or walked up Park Street? :)

Conrad

13-05-2011, 13:56

Haven't you ever been to Cabot Circus?
3 times I think, or to put it another way, not if I can help it.

Or walked up Park Street? :)
Now this is a bit more of a mystery, off to look at a map and work out how blind I am.

Edit: Ok I have seen that one, obviously if I was out for a drink in that area I would go to the very fine JDW 5/6 doors away (just kidding)

Al 10000

13-05-2011, 15:31

Although it may upset the sensibilities of the CAMRA crew I think they should stay

I dont think these eating establishment should stay on the site and i am not a member of camra or in the camra crew.

I have never been in either La Tasca or Cafe Rouge and would'nt dare go in one of these places just for a drink as i dont think i would be made welcome.

Conrad

13-05-2011, 15:49

I dont think these eating establishment should stay on the site and i am not a member of camra or in the camra crew.

I have never been in either La Tasca or Cafe Rouge and would'nt dare go in one of these places just for a drink as i dont think i would be made welcome.
Can you describe why you wouldn't dare go in one for a drink Alan. I feel the same, but I couldn't say the exact reason for it, which makes it a little hard to decide where a pub becomes a restaurant and vice-versa.

Al 10000

13-05-2011, 15:59

The only way to describe it is i would feel very uneasy going in one of these places.As most people on the site know i will go in any open pub whatever it looks like and i have no problem going in Slug & lettuces or Yates's but i just think these places are too far down the SIT DOWN and WAIT for a MEAL route i must admit this is a guess because i have as said before i have never been in one and probably never will.

Farway

13-05-2011, 16:12

Can you describe why you wouldn't dare go in one for a drink Alan. I feel the same, but I couldn't say the exact reason for it, which makes it a little hard to decide where a pub becomes a restaurant and vice-versa.

Like Al I have never been in, mainly because there are perfectly adequate [note, not good] pubs nearby, but to my mind they serve a purpose for families / couples who would never set foot in a pub, for many reasons, drunken swearing or yobs being one that springs to mind, thus it gives a safe feeling to wife / girl friend for coffee / wine but does allow for a pint at the same time

I guess they fall into the Harvester type of mould, you know what to expect, decent behaviour suitable for families, unlike some of the worse 'spoons / yates' or back street boozers

I think this site should cater for all tastes, including those who just want bottled Belgian beer for instance, and to my mind removing Cafe Rouge diminishes PuG's usefulness for the non pub & non real ale aficionado

To my mind, any eyes looking at PuG are surely worthwhile having?

Conrad

13-05-2011, 16:22

I like Al's comments and they reflect my feeling on these places, I have to admit though that a new rule that you have to be able to 'stand up' and drink your drink rather than being forced to sit down for it might be a stretch :).

Agree with all your points Farway, and more than happy for the 2 named to stay on the site (with the proviso I hope someone reviews them one day), but I am still wondering as a concept when something changes from a pub to a licensed restaurant. Actually as I type it I suppose it is the old determination that it is somewhere you can't go into unless you buy food.

Edit: I am also happy for them to go, so truly on the fence, I suppose what I am really saying is that where we are getting contributions then those are venues I really value.

Strongers

13-05-2011, 19:33

I've been into the Cafe Rouge in Hampstead and Chiswick and didn't bother adding a review to either as Cafe Rouge is a chain of French restaurants/bistros.

For anyone interested, I did enjoy the food but the onion soup was a bit rich for my liking. The wine was naff and the waiter smelt of garlic!

Millay

13-05-2011, 20:47

I think this site should cater for all tastes, including those who just want bottled Belgian beer for instance, and to my mind removing Cafe Rouge diminishes PuG's usefulness for the non pub & non real ale aficionado

To my mind, any eyes looking at PuG are surely worthwhile having?

Right behind you on that one Farway, I think it's far too easy to forget that there are many many more users of the site than those of us who use the forums. Just because most of us on here have similar tastes and viewpoints we should be careful about building something that only suits the minority.

Maldenman

14-05-2011, 07:21

I have no issue either way whether such places remain on here, its not as if their presence has a detrimental effect. As for reviews however my fourpenneth is that as is clear here, most of the regulars on here regard them primarily as restaurants and so are unlikely to add reviews. Likewise if the populace at large feel tempted to comment, I'd say they are more likely to Google for a restaurant review site than a pub one.

Rex_Rattus

14-05-2011, 10:41

I've been in both Tasca and Cafe Rouge establishments, but always to eat, and to be honest it would never have occurred to me to review them on here as I view them as restaurants. But others have confirmed that you can go into these places just for a drink, and as Millay says, just because most of the forum users have similar tastes regarding ale and pubs, we shouldn't ignore those who have different tastes. I'm always amazed by how many people are in the Slug and Lettuce outside Clapham Junction Station as I walk past to the (far superior, in my opinion) Falcon next door. So my inclination would be to leave them on here, but I have no strong views and would certainly feel no great sense of loss if Conrad does decide to remove them.

gillhalfpint

14-05-2011, 15:07

A Slug and Lettuce, Leicester I think, had a beer festival, so like a lot of chains, including JDW's, a lot depends on the outlook of the person running the establishment.

Lady Grey

14-05-2011, 15:35

I am a bit of a traditionalist who much prefers the public house environmet as apposed to all singing and dancing establishments. There is a La Tasca in my neck of the woods, but I have no plans to review it or add new photos. Anyone else is free to do so.

Millay

15-05-2011, 07:02

To revert back to the original subject of this thread (and get us away from Cafe Rouge and La Tasca!) I wouldn't have had any problem if the Plymouth Gin Distillery listing had stayed as I think it served a purpose for the users of the site. It's rather like the Scotch Whisky Heritage Centre (http://www.scotchwhiskyexperience.co.uk/whisky-tour/index.php) in Edinburgh that I've visited a couple of times and considered adding. They both offer similar things, a guided tour of the distilling process plus samples and a bar at the end. Whilst I'm not suggesting we should become some sort of tripadvisor site I do think a listing would be useful to users. Let's take a user, maybe overseas based, who is visiting Edinburgh, staying near the castle and looking for pubs to get that typical Scottish experience. Hopefully they'd find the likes of the Halfway House, the Bow Bar and the Blue Blazer, but as someone who has an interest in drinking in pubs I'd have thought they'd be interested to see that there is a place dedicated to scotch whisky nearby. We do of course need to be wary of being too 'commercial, but the presence of these two establishments, that are so intrinsically linked to pub culture, along with photos and a brief overview, can only add to the wide appeal of the site in my opinion.

Tin Hat please !

Al 10000

15-05-2011, 14:14

If we are going to widen the appeal of the site why not add all the distilieries with visitor centres thats probably another 50 venues on the site, then to help people who want an early morning drink we could add all the supermarkets as these also sell beer and not forgetting all the off licences this should add a further 5000 or 6000 to the site.
Then we could add summer fairs and fates which have occasional licences and what about all the licenced restaurants there a few chinese and indian ones in the town i live in that i could add,that should help anyone visiting the site locate somewhere to get a drink.

I always thought this was Pub site but i maybe wrong.