PDA

View Full Version : The relationship between CAMRA and publicans



NickDavies
10-02-2011, 20:05
Following on from the Rhydspence discussion I was lead here (http://www.theroyaloakrusper.co.uk/page1.php?post=67) by another pub review website.

It's an odd sort of relationship really. Without taking sides in this little tiff it must not be uncommon. Publicans are not going to turn down a listing in the GBG, let alone winning a regional or national award. It means more customers, sometimes lots more. However they're rather less keen on being told how to run their businesses which is how, I'm afraid, CAMRA often comes across.

I like the CRAPO idea.

oldboots
10-02-2011, 21:37
Yes a fairly typical attitude from a licensee, pretty much all of them think CAMRA are a bunch of tossers, useful enough for free publicity or taking money off when they drink that beer that's a pain in the arse to look after, what's wrong with a decent consistent beer that you plug in and forget about anyway? No messing about just take delivery, plug it in, sell it, bank the proceeds. Of course Licensees are always convinced they know what's what in spite of the fact that 30 of them go bust every week, still CAMRA hasn't run any pubs for 30 years now so they know bugger all.

At least CAMRA bashing is the current fashion, everyone says its time has past, craft keg is the coming thing, doing anything about pub closures shouldn't happen except perhaps by bands of dedicated locals, waste of space since you get real ale everywhere, blah blah blah.

Well don't worry, once JDW pull the rug on the voucher scheme membership will plummet, the tiny percentage of active members will die out and everything will come good again just like in the Sixties when nobody bothered about shite beer - they just drank bottled beer and the nice new keg beers and lagers instead, nobody except a bunch of mad, socially inadequete, bearded, greater bellied, sandal wearing hobbits. If only they hadn't bothered, we'd have all been better off, just like the rest of the world where they don't have this bollocks.

Good riddance I say, nobody needs some bunch of know it all tossers telling pubco mugs how to run their business while it lasts or moaning about pints that are actually half litres or whinging about crap pubs shutting, and it's only crap pubs that shut, or putting on their bloody awful beer festivals where you can't get a seat or a decent cold pint of Carling just that beer with twigs in.

It's a drinking club for a load of old blokes who know nowt and they should mind their own business and drink what everyone else does in the kind of pubs real landlords run. Perhaps then publicans can get shot of pongy beer with bits in and get on with making money, 'cos running a pub's just a business after all.

Conrad
10-02-2011, 22:24
oldboots, if it is not rude to ask, what is your relationship with CAMRA (genuine question, not having a poke)?

I don't know enough about it, but my feeling from the little I do know is that CAMRA is actually becoming a victim of its success. Real Ale is experiencing a real rejuvenation and whilst there is a ways to go I don't think it has a need to feel threatened at the moment. I think that maybe they are just taking on various issues that they think (rightly or wrongly) they should address, and I think that sometimes these issues are in conflict.

To take that page (http://www.theroyaloakrusper.co.uk/page1.php?post=67) as an example, the first issue mentioned is a corker, it is good that Tesco are promoting a well marketed RA like Brewdog and ties in with the whole original point of CAMRA, but they are now evolving to the point where they are trying to help pubs and you can see a pubs frustration when CAMRA then goes and promotes a supermarket. I just think that they need to sort out what their mission is focus on it and act on it in a positive manner.

At times they are inevitably going to be in conflict with licensees and there are certainly licensees out there who need a wake up call, so I think the sort of thing that Ed talks about in his latest blog (http://studentbrewer.blogspot.com/2011/02/publicans-trade-group.html) is very sensible so that publicans can have their own voice.

My frustrations with the Good Beer Guide can be summed up through this thread (http://forums.pubsgalore.co.uk/showthread.php?2932-For-list-tickers-with-a-copy-of-the-good-beer-guide&highlight=roger+protz). I would love for this site to promote the Good Beer Guide, and my personal belief is that it would help sell copies of the GBG, sadly I am not willing to risk litigation and they are refusing to return my calls so to speak.

This article is an interesting read (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/1db39caa-2e6e-11e0-8733-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1DGN497WW) and alludes to my peeve with CAMRA, they seem to go towards negative tactics too easily, so taking the recent themes:


I would rather they were open about the GBG and allowed us to show GBG listings, I think it would help the books sales and help the listed pubs sales, and is a positive strategy.
With the Rhydspence Inn, why not send out a letter saying "Try the Rhydspence Inn, and if it is a pub you would like to drink at again object to the planning application for fear you lose the opportunity". Hopefully it would generate traffic for the pub and still achieves the aim of sending planning letters. Again this is what I think is a positive strategy.


To be clear this is all just my fairly uneducated opinion, and long time CAMRA members will be able to offer far more intelligent answers I hope.

Millay
11-02-2011, 04:14
This article sounds like a bitter rant to me, from someone who is put out by not being shortlisted for National PotY, despite having been awarded the local PotY for a number of years. CAMRA's main aim is surely to campaign for a wider availability of quality real ale, wherever that may be, not to save failing pub businesses. However if their research tells them that a high proportion of pub closures are those that would fall under the, poorly thought out, CRAPO banner then surely it's only right that they should try to protect those pubs. This does however have to be a side issue and not their primary focus which should remain real ale.

By defining CRAPO as an organisation which would seek out "proper pubs selling hand crafted brews with old fashioned sets of values where people meet and talk and pass the time of dayover a draught of good ale" the writer shows the sort of blinkered attitude that so many have nowadays that the only good pubs are the ones that they like. If there were to be a shiny new bar in a busy shopping centre, with loud music, frequented by the 18-30 crowd, showing daytime TV instead of racing from Wincanton and having video games instead of a dartboard or pool table, BUT they had a bank of 4 ever changing real ales in top condition then CAMRA would support it because CAMRA has no particular axe to grind when it comes to pubs. CRAPO on the other hand would not support it as it does not fufil the narrow ideals of the writers perfect pub. CRAPO name, CRAPO idea.

ROBCamra
11-02-2011, 08:11
If you want reasoned answers then don't come to me.

This landlord is simply being a complete tw*t.

Unless he personally knows all 545 members of his local CAMRA how does he know only 6 use the pub. Lots of us don't advertise the fact.

If you don't want to be in the GBG, just say so, it's no problem, you will be removed, although your takings will go down.

A landlord going to another pub !!!!!!! You're having a laugh. Most landlords never leave the joint even on their nights off. Especially not to visit a local rival where they actually have to pay for their beer.

They then moan that other landlords don't visit THEIR pub.

Pub landlords are a bunch of moaning b*stards even when they're doing well from the trade. :moremad::moremad::moremad:

oldboots
11-02-2011, 08:44
CAMRA's main aim is surely to campaign for a wider availability of quality real ale, wherever that may be, not to save failing pub businesses. However if their research tells them that a high proportion of pub closures are those that would fall under the, poorly thought out, CRAPO banner then surely it's only right that they should try to protect those pubs. This does however have to be a side issue and not their primary focus which should remain real ale.

The CAMRA hobbits interfere in pubs because no pubs = no real ale.

In a free market how beer is treated and sold in the pub is only for the landlord to decide, and how the business is disposed of when it fails or a better opportunity comes along is up to the owner alone. Incidentally they shouldn't be interfering in brewery business either, what goes into beer and how it's made is a matter for the head brewer. It really is no concern of the punters and most of them don't care anyway. The customers have the choice; drink this here and if you don't like it then drink that there. Real Ale is a tiny niche market and will probably slowly wither away once CAMRA dies out.

The last thing needed is another organisation of interfering tw4ts who know nothing, but then CRAPO hasn't got a chance of starting, they'd never find anyone to run the thing, after all CAMRA can hardly find anyone to operate their local covens or whatever a meeting of hobbits is called.

ETA
11-02-2011, 09:22
CAMRA's biggest problem is its size and the fact that it now has allowed a large parasitic HQ with a lot of politically motivated individuals to set quotas, direct unpopular campaigns and drain funds from the branches rather than concentrate on supporting branch activity and trying to achieve consistency across the Country.

I agree with the point that if a quota of 17 pubs is given, and only two exceptional pubs are there, you will get 15 average pubs in the GBG. I've seen this in many areas on my travels, whereas I've also seen excellent pubs omitted becasue the quota is too small. Ommissions also occur because landlrods fall out with branch members, or branches simply don't get to all the pubs in their area. I accept that where an area is geographically large (eg Highlands) it may not be possible for a quorum of branch members to visit each pub every year, but there are ways of mitigating this - Highland Branch does so by actively encouraging visiting members from other branches to comment on and score pubs, for example. (I should say I'm not a Highland Branch member but have helped out in this way).

However, despite its faults, let's keep CAMRA in perspective - it is a volunteer organisation which has an interest in pubs and beer and does do a lot of good in some areas - running festivals, providing a nationwide network of strangers to meet for a beer, being another set of people to meet outside work, being a source of information about pub and beer related issues, and so on. It doesn't write the rules, and publicans are free to pick and choose how much support they give, and how much advice they heed. As for the JDW discount scheme, I'm all for it as it ensures I recover my membership each year without even going near a beer festival.

trainman
11-02-2011, 10:56
I often feel guilty about never having been a CAMRA member as we ought to be grateful for its significant contribution to pretty well saving real ale from the dark days of the 70s. No reason, either, not to be a member because, as has been pointed out, the spoons vouchers pay back the membership fee. The organisation may have some skewed areas of focus (full pint club...) but its activities, generally, must surely be beneficial for beer drinkers.

I couldn't find the current shortlist for national poty, any ideas?

Royal Oak Rusper was listed in final 4 a couple of years back, along with KIT, Stockport Crown, and Spreyton's Tom Cobley, the latter of which escaped a tm visit due to closure for a staff jamboree the very weekend I was down that way, most frustrating but I suppose 3 out of 4 ain't bad.

Soup Dragon
11-02-2011, 12:43
I am in CAMRA, but don't get chance to take an active part and i am not really sure i would want to.

I think there are a lot of good people in it, but also some not so good, as with any other organisation! There are issues i have about GBG inclusions - Spoons, well, one in 3 pints are decent, 1 in three pure sh**, yet they get in because the beer is cheap and the members likely go there more often, i guess. I never use the JDW vouchers - i just want to contribute to help those that do do something in CAMRA.

I would take a review written here by any of the regulars more seriously than a CAMRA review in their magazine. Ale Monster's reviews (he doesnt post on forum) are so good, i already know where i will sit when i go in a place!

Conrad
11-02-2011, 13:24
Ok, this blogpost (http://raisethebeerbar.blogspot.com/2011/02/camra-campaign-for-real-alienation.html) is doing the rounds on twitter.

Whilst I was reading it I was tempted to chuck it in one of our other threads because I felt the first half of the post with the letter was hilarious, what an outrageous letter and the quoting of CAMRA is superfluous and nothing to do with why I find it so funny.

The second half however is a reasoned complaint about CAMRA directly rather than the stupid letter and raises some more points that are interesting. Something we haven't touched on is that CAMRA in some ways is stifling beers evolution in this country. I suppose arguably fair enough given it is about Real Ale but I was lucky enough to try a pint of Brooklyn lager a couple months back and it was a real eye opener, a lovely pint that showed how a lager could be interesting. Just because it is a lager though it would be frowned upon by many.

It would certainly seem oldboots is right and CAMRA bashing is in danger of becoming a sport, sadly I find myself frequently agreeing with the bashes though.

Quinno
11-02-2011, 13:34
Something we haven't touched on is that CAMRA in some ways is stifling beers evolution in this country. I suppose arguably fair enough given it is about Real Ale

Arguably?? It's in the name!

If the craft keg people want to form and organise their own version of CAMRA, then they're welcome to and I'm sure the two will rub along fine. However, promoting craft keg beer alongside real ale is not (and should not) be what CAMRA is about.

Would post a longer rant but am off out :)

Conrad
11-02-2011, 13:45
Arguably?? It's in the name!
By that token they shouldn't have anything to do with pubs, they are already involved beyond their name.

Edit: Everything else you say is fine, but it is nothing to do with their name.

Brewguru
11-02-2011, 13:46
Kind of following on from Conrad, CAMRA is stiffling beer evolution if it thinks Real Ale is the only possible beer format. As he says there are now some very interesting craft keg beers. I see this not as a return to the bad old days of keg but more an evolution into a new format. Kegging beer requires alot of capital investment in equipment which is why only large breweries have done it in the past. Now a new wave is dawning with breweries like Thornbridge and Brewdog kegging their beers. Down here Moor Brewery does it as well. Is CAMRA going to throw them out of competitions like the Champion beer of Britain because they keg?

oldboots
11-02-2011, 14:06
That band wagon just keeps rolling, this one from a brewer presumably aggrieved that CAMRA won't advertise his "craft beer" for free. Craft beer is a tiny, tiny subset of the tiny niche market for real ale, important only to a load of bloggers, twitterers and brewers like Meantime and Greenwich who miss out on CAMRA support. Maybe this (http://zythophile.wordpress.com/2011/01/29/why-extremophiles-are-a-danger-to-us-all/) is where they're going to end up?

If CAMRA is so out of touch and sleepwalking into oblivion why do these brewers and bloggers get so upset about it not supporting a nebulous concept like craft beer? As I said below (or above) it's a shame CAMRA aka The Hobbits, ever existed then we wouldn't have to put up with this tosh.

I did love this bit though,

"At branch level you rule by fear, I know licensees who are afraid of addressing their concerns to CAMRA branches as they fear their business will suffer as a result, you have become a toothless self-interest group riddled with politics & resistance to change."

So why are licensees scared of something toothless? Watch out for the (toothless) Beer Police!

oldboots
11-02-2011, 14:14
Is CAMRA going to throw them out of competitions like the Champion beer of Britain because they keg?

Only their kegged beer as it doesn't meet CAMRA's definition of Real Ale; it's their competition so it's their rules.

Conrad
11-02-2011, 14:24
That band wagon just keeps rolling, this one from a brewer presumably aggrieved that CAMRA won't advertise his "craft beer" for free. Craft beer is a tiny, tiny subset of the tiny niche market for real ale, important only to a load of bloggers, twitterers and brewers like Meantime and Greenwich who miss out on CAMRA support. Maybe this (http://zythophile.wordpress.com/2011/01/29/why-extremophiles-are-a-danger-to-us-all/) is where they're going to end up?
Shouldn't a pressure group like CAMRA be prepared to support or engage with a tiny, tiny subset of a tiny niche market for real ale though? Certainly a more interesting proposition than worrying about whether your glass is full.


I did love this bit though,

"At branch level you rule by fear, I know licensees who are afraid of addressing their concerns to CAMRA branches as they fear their business will suffer as a result, you have become a toothless self-interest group riddled with politics & resistance to change."

So why are licensees scared of something toothless? Watch out for the (toothless) Beer Police!
Yeah that bit was poorly thought out, stuck out like a sore thumb to me. The truth is CAMRA has some finely honed teeth.

Paris_Hilton
11-02-2011, 14:30
Only their kegged beer as it doesn't meet CAMRA's definition of Real Ale; it's their competition so it's their rules.

You beat me to it OB

Eddie86
11-02-2011, 16:07
You beat me to it OB

Hence SIBA organising one this week featuring 50 kegged beers from the UK.

Paris_Hilton
11-02-2011, 16:29
Hence SIBA organising one this week featuring 50 kegged beers from the UK.


Correct me if I'm wrong but SIBA is a trade organisation for brewers, and I quote from their website 'formed in 1980 as the Small Independent Brewers’ Association, to represent the interests of the emerging new wave of microbrewers'.

As such they will push their product and encourage all to drink it in the same way as the big brewers did in the past. They may well have a kegged beer festival this weekend, presumably to try to convert us all to keg beer as, as has been mentioned before, kegged is easier to keep that cask ales etc etc.

CAMRA is an independent organisation, not funded, nor therefore influenced, by the brewers. CAMRA's mission is to protect the interests of cask ale drinkers.

Like someone (OB?) said of CAMRA, their competition, their rules.

oldboots
11-02-2011, 17:14
Correct me if I'm wrong but SIBA is a trade organisation for brewers, and I quote from their website 'formed in 1980 as the Small Independent Brewers’ Association, to represent the interests of the emerging new wave of microbrewers'.


Quite, so wouldn't it be their job to promote "craft beer" from the likes of Summer Wine, rather than an organisation set up to promote cask conditioned beers and the places it is sold?

What ever happened to the Licensed Victuallers Association? They were supposed to look after landlord's interests.

Quinno
11-02-2011, 17:31
By that token they shouldn't have anything to do with pubs, they are already involved beyond their name.


Pubs are the only place that can sell real ale to the general public - the two are inter-related. Simples.

Quinno
11-02-2011, 17:32
Hence SIBA organising one this week featuring 50 kegged beers from the UK.

Good on them - but they are there to promote trade for microbreweries in general not specifically real ale. I might even try a few....

Conrad
11-02-2011, 17:43
Pubs are the only place that can sell real ale to the general public - the two are inter-related. Simples.
I am given to understand that bottle conditioned RA is RA, at least that is what the little CAMRA logo on the side of the bottle I saw at Asda said.

Also why try and save pubs by suggesting they become restaurants as in one of our recent examples?

Quinno
11-02-2011, 18:01
I am given to understand that bottle conditioned RA is RA, at least that is what the little CAMRA logo on the side of the bottle I saw at Asda said.

Also why try and save pubs by suggesting they become restaurants as in one of our recent examples?

Bottle conditioned stuff is technically RA, but frankly is never as good as the real deal. I think most of us would agree on that?

A restaurant that serves ale/beer/wine/cider whatever to Joe Bloggs is preferable to a house, wouldn't you say? That is, of course, if Joe Bloggs was ever interested in using the pub in the first place.

Conrad
11-02-2011, 18:06
And a house is preferable to a derelict building.

But these facile debates do nothing to alter the fact that CAMRA's mission has already spread beyond it's campaigns name which is all I said.

Eddie86
11-02-2011, 18:07
Correct me if I'm wrong but SIBA is a trade organisation for brewers, and I quote from their website 'formed in 1980 as the Small Independent Brewers’ Association, to represent the interests of the emerging new wave of microbrewers'.

As such they will push their product and encourage all to drink it in the same way as the big brewers did in the past. They may well have a kegged beer festival this weekend, presumably to try to convert us all to keg beer as, as has been mentioned before, kegged is easier to keep that cask ales etc etc.

CAMRA is an independent organisation, not funded, nor therefore influenced, by the brewers. CAMRA's mission is to protect the interests of cask ale drinkers.

Like someone (OB?) said of CAMRA, their competition, their rules.

Sorry - I should have made myself clearer. What I meant was it's not CAMRAs job, hence SIBA doing it. I quite agree CAMRA should be about real ale. Not quite sure about RAIB though...

gillhalfpint
11-02-2011, 18:30
Just got back in from Fleetwood fest so catching up on all todays posts.

On pub allocation to GBG I heard that if you had an allocation of 15 say and only had 2 good enough to put in, you should put in the 2 and pool the other 13 centrally rather than put poor pubs in.

A branch then with an allocation of 15 and a lot more decent pubs worthy of entry could draw from the central pool.

Sounds a good idea, but no branch wants to put so few entries in, as the next year they would likely get a reduced allocation.

PaulOfHorsham
11-02-2011, 19:45
Pubs are the only place that can sell real ale to the general public - the two are inter-related. Simples.

Sorry, Quinno, but that's nonsense wrong (must mind my manners :rolleyes: ). While pubs clearly form the majority of real ale selling venues, it's perfectly possible to buy direct from the brewery and from real ale off-licences - we have both here in Horsham. CAMRA also have their own festivals.

Now about this Fast Cask (http://www.thepublican.com/story.asp?storycode=66624) thing that Marston's are pushing...

Crossste
12-02-2011, 12:07
Just got back in from Fleetwood fest so catching up on all todays posts.

On pub allocation to GBG I heard that if you had an allocation of 15 say and only had 2 good enough to put in, you should put in the 2 and pool the other 13 centrally rather than put poor pubs in.

A branch then with an allocation of 15 and a lot more decent pubs worthy of entry could draw from the central pool.

Sounds a good idea, but no branch wants to put so few entries in, as the next year they would likely get a reduced allocation.

I didn,t know that each area had an allocation, having never been a member of CAMRA. That system has to be flawed. Comparing say Rochdale or Oldham to Halifax or Huddersfield the former have very few good real ale pubs whereas the other two areas have a plethora of good quality real ale pubs. Why should a good quality pub be omitted as it is over quota when a sub standard pub be included as it falls in a different area.

Wittenden
12-02-2011, 19:04
Good thread. I'm not a current CAMRAmember, though joined back in the early days-1974 I think. With the growth in sites like this, and beer blogging generally, i found I got all the beer/pub info I needed, and living so far out, I never got to a meeting.
They do a good job, promoting real ale, as indeed they should, but do seem to get bound up in minutiae, as most democratic/voluntary bodies do. I felt, when I was an active member, that there was a busy body element-goes with the territory I suppose. I never enjoyed that elemnt of the campaign, and I'm sure landlords hate it as well. A prime example is the Rhyspence Inn business.
I found Conrad's link to the chippy Yorkshire brewer hilariuos on many counts, especially as he griped about lack of "support" for "progressive " beers:keg is keg, and real ale, real ale.Most beer drinkers, I'm sure would not condemn any beer without trying ,but one can't expect CAMRA to campaign for beer that isn't "real".I must admit I've not tried one of these new wave kegs,a) because I've vivid memories of how goddamn awful keg was, and b )because I've rarely come across them.Of course "Kevin" is a prat, but its equally wrong to condemn UK (and Kentish!) hops as dull. My neighbour has recently planted a garden of Goldings to meet demand-much of his production is exported to the US craft brewers!
To say CAMRA has stifled development of English beer is pretty good rubbish-when I started drinking Porter was a thing of the past,mild was on its uppers,Old ales and Barley wines were not particularily common, and goldes/blondes unknown, as were seasonals.
I feel better for that!

Conrad
12-02-2011, 19:24
Just to do a drive by posting as I am only at the computer for 5 minutes.

It would just be lunacy to suggest that CAMRA has stifled development of English beer, a healthy question is always what more can it do though. I do wonder if promoting pubs to serve a craft beer that they know they can store for a long time where they will never sell enough RA is a good attempt at providing a gateway drug. No axe to grind either way, without a doubt a line has to be drawn somewhere and it more than makes sense that they stick to their definition of RA, but I just found that one an interesting proposition.

I do also feel there is that sniffy element, but I hesitate to bring that up because it runs the danger of taking "Kevin" seriously and I really wouldn't want to tar CAMRA with him.

Edit: Before I get pulled up on it, I very deliberately used past tense in this post, and it was intended that I was using present/future tense in my earlier post.

Wittenden
13-02-2011, 00:56
This post:http://edsbeer.blogspot.com/2011/02/craft-beer.html#comments
throws some light on the vexed question of "craft beer". Ed seems to have views about beer that chime with my own;he's also brewer at Old Dairy,just up the road, so he must be a good egg.

Quinno
14-02-2011, 12:30
Sorry, Quinno, but that's nonsense wrong (must mind my manners :rolleyes: ). While pubs clearly form the majority of real ale selling venues, it's perfectly possible to buy direct from the brewery and from real ale off-licences - we have both here in Horsham. CAMRA also have their own festivals.


I would suggest that the combined sales from all brewery shops and festivals barely makes a dent in the overall figures. A pub is (usually) open 12-11 most days of the week, 363/4/5/6 says a year. The thrust of my point still stands - pubs are the main (and often only) place for the vast majority of normal punters to buy a good pint of real ale.

Conrad
14-02-2011, 14:44
This post:http://edsbeer.blogspot.com/2011/02/craft-beer.html#comments
throws some light on the vexed question of "craft beer". Ed seems to have views about beer that chime with my own;he's also brewer at Old Dairy,just up the road, so he must be a good egg.
Indeed a good post, and in a similar although tamer vein: HardKnott Dave (http://hardknott.blogspot.com/2011/02/what-is-craft-beer.html).

Quinno
14-02-2011, 15:59
Indeed a good post, and in a similar although tamer vein: HardKnott Dave (http://hardknott.blogspot.com/2011/02/what-is-craft-beer.html).

Best comment I've seen on the whole thing is:

"At least with real ale you know where you stand regardless of what's trendy." :D

I think, ultimately, that so-called craft brewers are going to have to go head-to-head with mega kegged beers in order to change attitudes towards keg beers in Britain. Simply trying to slip into CAMRA through agitation and then hope to change CAMRA's raison d'etre is, I would think, doomed to fail. (I consider myself a CAMRA 'moderate' and I would resist such moves). Like I said, I'm sure CAMRA could rub along just fine with some form of 'loose coalition' where the craft brewer lot have mobbed together and organised themselves independently but attempting to get CAMRA to change the Real Ale bit to 'nice beer that isn't (insert long-winded disclaimer here)' isn't going to happen in the foreseeable. Collective memories about Double Diamond/Red Barrel/Hoffmesiter are just far too long.

The point that a number of the blog squad seem to forget is that real ale (and the associated battle to revive it) is uniquely British. The Americans can call their beer sector what they like, really.

EDIT: I think that this polemic-free post sums up pretty much what the debate is about. (http://hardknott.blogspot.com/2011/02/what-is-craft-beer.html)

Conrad
15-02-2011, 22:54
Indeed a good post, and in a similar although tamer vein: HardKnott Dave (http://hardknott.blogspot.com/2011/02/what-is-craft-beer.html).
Lots of guff...........
EDIT: I think that this polemic-free post sums up pretty much what the debate is about. (http://hardknott.blogspot.com/2011/02/what-is-craft-beer.html)
I was about to congratulate you on an excellent post that got me thinking till I noticed you had edited to post a link to the article that you had quoted from my post :confused:, if I didn't know better I would think you weren't listening to me :p.

Quinno
16-02-2011, 00:06
I was about to congratulate you on an excellent post that got me thinking till I noticed you had edited to post a link to the article that you had quoted from my post :confused:, if I didn't know better I would think you weren't listening to me :p.

LOL, blame the fact that I was posting from work in a (relative) hurry. I'll take the initial compliment, though :cheers:

EDIT - Tandlemans' take is interesting (http://tandlemanbeerblog.blogspot.com/2011/02/different-quality-same-problem.html)

Conrad
17-02-2011, 10:56
LOL, blame the fact that I was posting from work in a (relative) hurry. I'll take the initial compliment, though :cheers:

EDIT - Tandlemans' take is interesting (http://tandlemanbeerblog.blogspot.com/2011/02/different-quality-same-problem.html)

Tandleman is the one who refused to link to PG (http://forums.pubsgalore.co.uk/showthread.php?2300-Site-promotion&p=12569#post12569) on the basis that "Pub websites tend not to share CAMRA's aims and aspirations". So I really don't rate his ability to see past his prejudices and research anything. Which is a pity as the piece read quite well.

Going back to the post I like though now that I have 5 minutes to spare, this bit hit a chord:

Like I said, I'm sure CAMRA could rub along just fine with some form of 'loose coalition' where the craft brewer lot have mobbed together and organised themselves independently but attempting to get CAMRA to change the Real Ale bit to 'nice beer that isn't (insert long-winded disclaimer here)' isn't going to happen in the foreseeable. Collective memories about Double Diamond/Red Barrel/Hoffmesiter are just far too long.
I think you are right, it just isn't going to happen (and I had appreciated that even before I read Tandlemans piece that simply reinforced it).

Which left me thinking about the original post referencing Kevin that kicked all this off. It is post that is guilty of all the things that irritate me about CAMRA, it focuses purely on the negative and doesn't really try and draw any positives. Far better if they had just outed Kevin and thrown him to CAMRA bloggers to tear up, thus creating a bit of a positive vibe about their message rather than just trying to butt horns with CAMRA.

runningdog
20-02-2011, 20:49
I've stayed out of this thread until now as I hold no brief for CAMRA nor any beef with them either. But I have to admit to a distressing ignorance of the nuances around the term 'craft beer', so I'm seeking enlightenment, in particular in relation to bottled beer.
I drink a lot of the stuff, living where, and how I do, I don't have a lot of choice, it's that or drive around with a constant nervous twitch. Any old how, I like the stuff. Now, I don't keep it in a fridge, my 'stock' lives in a cupbard that remains cool pretty well all the year round. Five minutes ago I capped a bottle of Wickwar's Station Porter, an hour or so ago I did the same with a bottle of Old Peculiar. Both, I find, are very 'moreish', neither carries CAMRA's 'This is real ale' label, both are easily recognizable as being little different from their cask relatives.
So, here's my question, are these craft beers? If the answer is yes, why? and if not, why not?

PS...Adnam's Broadside tastes a 100 times better out of a bottle than from a pump, and it's not just the strength..........
:cheers::cheers::drinkup:

oldboots
21-02-2011, 09:00
Craft beer is a fairly meaningless term in this country, it came from the USA where it may mean something but they have a different beer culture as you know. I like this from Oh Good Ale

"In practice the term “craft beer”, in the UK, hardly ever means anything more than “beer I like, made by brewers I like”; on the rare occasions it does mean something more, it seems to mean “beer which is particularly good because it’s ridiculously strong/undrinkably bitter/macerated with raspberries/all of the above”."

Although Pub Curmudgeon might be closer with this

"“Craft beer” is a label given by beer snobs to beer that they feel entitled to be snobbish about."

I say if you like the beer carry on supping and who cares what others call it.

CAMRA encourages brewers to put this "This is Real Ale" on bottle conditioned beers, that is those that are unfiltered/unpasteurized and have some yeast in so there is a secondary fermentation.

runningdog
21-02-2011, 09:15
Craft beer is a fairly meaningless term in this country........
I say if you like the beer carry on supping and who cares what others call it.
Thanks, 'ob', you've, sort of, confirmed the conclusions I've been drawing for myself. 'Carry On Drinking The Stuff' is what I intend to do, even if the BMA put a POISON label on the bottles..........:D:D