Chain Pubs

[Al 10000]

Hi Conrad,

Since i have now found out that you are not that struck on Wetherspoons pubs why are these pubs identified on the pubs main page as being a Wetherspoons pub the same goes for Toby Carvery and Slug and Lettuce.

This is not done for large independant brewerys eg Robinsons, Arkells or Palmers.

[Conrad]

I am not happy that we do promote JDW in that way on the pubs page, as far as I know it is the only one we afford that honour to. Toby Carvery, where we know their name we prefer that, and Slug & Lettuce are only known as Slug & Lettuce (I think).

As you correctly state though it is free branding that no one else is getting. Some of our members are keen that we put their names like that though (I suspect in honesty because BITE does it that way [not a dig at those correcting]), and as ever where the request is made strongly enough we go with it. On the whole it improves the quality of our data, sadly though I am not happy that we are helping their branding specifically (as in whilst not affording their competitors the same honour).

In the long term I would like to make it so that we gather the information about any pubs we can, right down to these ones where the owner owns a couple of pubs. It is not an easy change though as it involves free text entry, so for the sake of argument what happens if someone puts one pub as "Wetherspoons", another uses "Weatherspoons" and a third uses "JDW" despite them all being the same thing. Dealing with this is a major hurdle to a lot of our changes (including the currently ongoing area changes).

Hope that answers it :)

[trainman]

I am not happy that we do promote JDW in that way on the pubs page...

I thought it acted as a warning just as much as a promotion...

[Al 10000]

Hi Conrad,

Thanks for the quick reply.

It was bugging me as i am not that struck on Wetherspoons and they are the last pub company that needs advertising wheras small independants like Bathams, Holdens and Donnington get none.

Regarding ex Bite users this is Pubs Galore not Bite.

I hope i dont upset anybody saying these things and thats my two penneth worth for today.

[Al 10000]

I thought it acted as a warning just as much as a promotion...

Hi Trainman i was going to say that but wanted to keep my message short.

[Conrad]

Regarding ex Bite users this is Pubs Galore not Bite.
With this quirk the prime perpetrators are BITE haters and were here long before the exodus, I do however think in this instance they felt it was something BITE did better than us.

[Strongers]

I thought it acted as a warning just as much as a promotion...


Hi Trainman i was going to say that but wanted to keep my message short.

Ha, make that three of us!

[Soup Dragon]

When i review a pub i will tend to say what chain or brewery own it - Banks's, Bathams, Holdens, Spoons, Sizzling etc as a part of the description of the exterior i tend to start with - with me it very much acts as a general part of the description - every Ember Inns is the same near enough!

[rpadam]

I would happily acknowledge the pub ownership for any 'chain', be that Wetherspoon, Greene King or (say) Arkells.

All seems like useful information to me...

[Paris_Hilton]

Ha, make that three of us!

Four!

[arwkrite]

I do not think that any Ex Biter needs to be told that this site is named Pubs Galore.
In my experience those ex members of the Dark Side are capable of reading ,writing and pretty good at arithmetic.

Chain pubs are a fact of life and it is a personal matter whether you love'em or hate'em. If I know the owners of a pub I will try to mention it in my review. I do not consider it as advertising the brand but informing the reader with another snippet of information ,which may save a wasted journey should the reader dislike pubs under that brand.
Are we perhaps becoming a little paranoid about a certain pub chain that is a success across our nation. By its very popularity it has shown it is giving a lot of drinkers what they want. No one forces customers through its doors except perhaps the Chancellor and his damn tax increases. There are plenty of smaller pubs about still. Mr Martins pubs are a successful marketing phenomena which plenty of people like, but not to everyones taste .



Managed to get through that without mentioning Wetherspoons, 'Spoons or JDW once.........BLAST IT.:muppet:

[Conrad]

Sorry the BITE thing was my fault, what I was trying to say is that I think where BITE performs better than us (as they arguably do by showing this chains name) we can end up with an inferiority complex and try and compensate.

They simple solution is just that we show any chain we can find, which we will do eventually (although please don't ask us to start changing all the pubs names).

[NickDavies]

Sorry the BITE thing was my fault, what I was trying to say is that I think where BITE performs better than us (as they arguably do by showing this chains name) we can end up with an inferiority complex and try and compensate.

They simple solution is just that we show any chain we can find, which we will do eventually (although please don't ask us to start changing all the pubs names).

Bite might just perform better if they got it right. Click on chain pubs and you'll get a fascinating list of chains, many defunct. How long since Walkabout (41 pubs, it says) was treated to the humane killer.

Though they're all chains, there's a big distinction between branded chains, like JDW, Pubcos like Punch Inns and brewery tied pubs like Greene King. All down to individuality really.

[Al 10000]

I would happily acknowledge the pub ownership for any 'chain', be that Wetherspoon, Greene King or (say) Arkells.

All seems like useful information to me...

I agree with you on that and i always say in my reviews which brewery owns the pub including Spoons,what i was trying to get at was that the only brewery or pub co that gets its name in large letters at the top of the pubs page is Wetherspoons which i disagree with.

[Conrad]

Interestingly we have an M&B PR company contacting us with some of the M&B pubs details, so that should give us a starter for 10 on theirs when I have time to do this (albeit the list they have just sent we have sent back because the Nicholsons Beer Festival thread (http://forums.pubsgalore.co.uk/showthread.php?5221-Nicholsons-Beer-Festival) is more up to date :D)

[Farway]

Four!

five

[runningdog]

I'm with 'rpadam' on this. If I know the chain or pubco and it is relevant, in it goes. It's simply information and something I like to see if using reviews, looking for somewhere to go. After all, if you were reviewing a car you wouldn't miss out the make or model, would you?
:drinkup::drinkup:

[Alesonly]

Yes Please do Name them all if possible especially if its a Scream Edwards Or Harvester then I can then avoid them at all cost. Theres certain Pubs we all like too avoid.

[NickDavies]

Yes Please do Name them all if possible especially if its a Scream Edwards Or Harvester then I can then avoid them at all cost. Theres certain Pubs we all like too avoid.

and if it's a Harvey's or Hook Norton so we can be waiting eagerly on the doorstep.

[Strongers]

I also always name the the if I know what it is, but many chain pubs on the high street have no mention in any of their literature of who owns/manages the pub.

[NickDavies]

I also always name the the if I know what it is, but many chain pubs on the high street have no mention in any of their literature of who owns/manages the pub.

They can be very secretive, and with good reason. M&B often do their best to hide their ownership. This was once an ancient coaching inn before they FUBARd it:

http://www.thebellgodstone.co.uk/

Own web address, a few sister pubs, just a local chain? But click on Terms and Conditions (ignoring doomed attempt by staff to look decorative):

http://www.thebellgodstone.co.uk/terms-and-conditions/ and the game is up.

Another example

http://www.homecountiespubs.co.uk/dukeofyork/ - again you might think they are a reasonably wholesome regional chain but click around a bit and you find they are related to Brunning and Price and thus part of The Restaurant Group, famous for such horrors as Frankie and Benny's and Garfunkel's. No wonder they keep quiet about it.

[Conrad]

Looking at the bottoms of their menus to see the small print and you will frequently find the chain written there.

[Strongers]

Looking at the bottoms of their menus to see the small print and you will frequently find the chain written there.

If it is not obvious this is the first place I look, but alas many a time the name is missing.

[runningdog]

The Duke of York might be a cheap place to eat, the Pie and Mash seems to be free and there's no ale to tempt you into having a beer..........:drinkup:

[Alesonly]

Looking at the bottoms of their menus to see the small print and you will frequently find the chain written there.

As I said in another thread recently Wetherspoons seem too be copying this with there new Yellow & Gold Menus No where on the menu dose it say Wetherspoons only in the small print on the back. Ive Also noticed the signage on the Pubs that they have just decorated on the outside its now all in Black & Gold with Freehouse In larger letters and Wetherspoons in small letters if at all..

[Old Blue]

As a fairly new user of this excellent site, and a novice pub reviewer, I'd also find it very useful to be able readily to see the 'chain' to which a pub belongs. However, I'm not sure where this might end up.

Some complications down the road I suspect. Are we talking about branding, ownership, or beer supply? Different and occasionally conflicting things. Do we intend just to identify homogenous chains of plastic pubs (sorry JDW) or do we envisage ending up with all non-independents being identified by way of a brewery or PubCo label? Would this be useful information or detract unhelpfully from the individuality of pubs within those empires that allow automony? And would, for example, an independently owned pub that got its main supplies from a particular brewery get that brewery's label?

I also wonder whether we could end up unwittingly promoting the chains to the detriment of independents. I see independence as a virtue in itself, and in an ideal world I guess labelling them as "Independent" would help address this. But I don't see how we could make that work, given the difficulty in defining the term, and in distinguishing between genuine independents and those which masquerade as such but are actually owned by fiendish investment banks whose long term plans have nothing to do with proper beer.

Maybe I'm overcomplicating this and the best way forward is to start identifying some obvious chains and see how it goes. But I'd much appreciate others' views on this.

[Al 10000]

I dont think any chain pub should have their name at the top of a pub listing i think its fair enough for these to be named in a review.

Regarding chain pubs Conrad would have a full time job keeping up with their constant name changing,having read some reviews in the London area Taylor Walker are making a come back did'nt they have something to with Ind Coope years ago!! and i car'nt ever remember them brewing beer and i am not far off 50 years old.

Most of these pub chains belong to a larger chain at the end of the day, i see lots of reviews and posts about Nicholsons i am sure they are not a chain on their own.

These pubcos or chains only started after the beer orders in the late 80s stated that no brewery should own more than 2000 pubs (not sure if that figure is correct)so what did the large brewerys do they closed the brewery down and created a Pub Co or chain pub and these ex large brewerys did'nt have to dispose any of their pubs and today they probably have a larger amount of pubs than they did back in the late 80s.
This makes me very :moremad: thinking about it and this is the reason i have over the years tried to do as many independant brewery pubs as possible.

[Rex_Rattus]

Welcome to the club Saki; good to have you on board. You're right, some pubs will be very difficult, if not impossible, to categorise. But where it is possible, specifically in the case of J D Wetherspoon, I find it very useful information, and my view is that we shouldn't let the fact that some pubs are difficult to categorise prevent us from categorising those chain pubs where the provenance is straightforward. But this is about the pub's heading on its page, and earlier in the thread you can see where Conrad has articulated his take on the issue. But however this pans out, we can always say in our reviews what if anything we know about who owns or runs the pub; whose beer it sells, etc etc. I always tend to do this in my reviews, as do most others, as I reckon this sort of thing can be very useful for potential visitors.

[Farway]

On a positive note about chain pubs, whilst the corporate branding may stop them supplying real ales, local brews etc it also means they are normally disabled / child / car parking / food / coffee friendly, which to many is an asset, thus naming the chain in the listing helps many, and as said before, serves as a warning to others

Not all pub users want real ale, or even alcohol, some just want a cup of coffee, maybe a sandwich and a chat, thus CAMRA likes will conflict with Mumsnet I suspect

[oldboots]

It can be extremely difficult to know who owns which pub. In our neck of the woods an unmarked pub is likely to be a Sam Smiths but might be a freehouse or a Punch Tavern. Black Sheep and Theakstons have their name on lots of pubs but only own one and two respectively. Enterprise and Ember are usually easy to spot and there are some surpising pubs in the Enterprise chain. Punch and Admiral, amongst others, often sell tranches of pubs they can't find mugs to run, sometimes they own a pub but lease to other chains/small brewers (see the Fleece in Otley). I like the warning given about JDW (is that make it six?) and I try to indicate the owner/chain in the reviews where I can.

BTW I remember the seventies when Watneys painted their pubs any colour but red and took down all their corporate branding after the Red Revolution failed.

[Conrad]

As a fairly new user of this excellent site, and a novice pub reviewer, I'd also find it very useful to be able readily to see the 'chain' to which a pub belongs. However, I'm not sure where this might end up.
Hi Saki/Old Blue,

Welcome to Pubs Galore, myself and Dave M are the admins of the site so if you have any problems, suggestions or questions feel free to ask us.

With the chains, when we get there it will just be something that members can correct on the site, and once we have them we can show all the pubs in a chain in a town which would be good for the various chain promotions that we are seeing these days.

Enjoy your stay :)