View Full Version : Who should decide if a pub stays or goes?
Shamelessly stealing a question from Ed's blog (http://studentbrewer.blogspot.com/2011/01/who-should-decide-if-pub-stays-or-goes.html).
I found it quite interesting, but then I would as I am frequently known to be bemused by what CAMRA do.
The comments are getting nicely heated, and Ed is promising to add more of his own thoughts later.
oldboots
31-01-2011, 19:16
I've followed the arguments on Ed's Blog and the CAMRA forum and I don't think there's an easy answer to the question even without going into the pros and cons of the Rhydspence Inn.
While I would normally defend a person's rights to dispose of their own property as they see fit there is the point that a pub has a social amenity dimension, especially in rural areas, and every effort should be made to preserve that, the difficulty is to reconcile this with the owners rights.
We have all, probably, had experience of a failed pub that has become a success with a new owner so the argument that the present owner is the best judge of a pub's viability is at best rather suspect. Sadly there are also cases where an owner has deliberately run down a pub to “prove” it un-viable and gain planning permission for a change of use. Most of us in rural areas have also had the experience of various people complaining that the local pub is going to close, the most vocal of course being those who visit once a year, if ever, a classic example of “use it or lose it” being ignored.
The most problematical point is that of value, that is when a pub is worth more as a house or development site than as a business, especially a failed business. So should a community lose a valuable amenity for private profit? That is certainly the way of the world but “society” must decide if it puts more than a monetary value on certain things and arrange planning law in accordance.
As far as CAMRA is concerned it is a consumer organisation and has a set of objectives laid out in its “Memorandum and Articles of Association” in accordance with the Companies Act 1985. The most relevant objective for pub preservation is probably;
To ensure in every manner possible that producers and retailers of beer act in the best interests of the customer.
A closed pub is not usually in the best interests of the customer.
The central policy statement applicable is that CAMRA believes pubs should not be closed for purely economic reasons because of their social and community asset and amenity aspects.
Those fundamental points are the basis for campaigning about pub closures, not some whim to keep failed pubs open at all costs or portray some poor landlord as an evil, selfish, mean-spirited profiteer.
The possibility of CAMRA owning pubs still exists in its “Memorandum and Articles of Association” but, even supposing it could raise the loans required, should it? Should the Consumers Association run corner shops? Or rogue trader TV programmes become decorators, builders and plumbers? CAMRA did run a number of pubs in the mid 1970s through a subsidiary, I visited the Fox in Bristol then and thought it was a good pub but I don't know its trading history, I couldn't comment on CAMRA's expertise in running pubs, I can only vouch for the quality of their beer festivals and management of an annual income of over £2 million.
The sad fact of course is that recent social and economic changes mean we have too many pubs for the available customer base so we all need to get out and drink in pubs a lot more. Let's make pub closures history!
Strongers
31-01-2011, 20:46
I’m against any pub being closed that I haven’t visited yet;)
On the CAMRA note, I think that they do a great job on the ale front which apparently wouldn’t be here anymore if it wasn’t for them, but I’ve been behind the bar during one of their meets and if their ale consumption was the norm the pub would have folded. The yoof of today may get slated, but one 20 year old on alcopops will spend the same in an evening as a whole tribe of sandal wearing beardies!:whistle:
I've followed the arguments on Ed's Blog and the CAMRA forum and I don't think there's an easy answer to the question even without going into the pros and cons of the Rhydspence Inn.
While I would normally defend a person's rights to dispose of their own property as they see fit there is the point that a pub has a social amenity dimension, especially in rural areas, and every effort should be made to preserve that, the difficulty is to reconcile this with the owners rights.
We have all, probably, had experience of a failed pub that has become a success with a new owner so the argument that the present owner is the best judge of a pub's viability is at best rather suspect. Sadly there are also cases where an owner has deliberately run down a pub to “prove” it un-viable and gain planning permission for a change of use. Most of us in rural areas have also had the experience of various people complaining that the local pub is going to close, the most vocal of course being those who visit once a year, if ever, a classic example of “use it or lose it” being ignored.
The most problematical point is that of value, that is when a pub is worth more as a house or development site than as a business, especially a failed business. So should a community lose a valuable amenity for private profit? That is certainly the way of the world but “society” must decide if it puts more than a monetary value on certain things and arrange planning law in accordance.
As far as CAMRA is concerned it is a consumer organisation and has a set of objectives laid out in its “Memorandum and Articles of Association” in accordance with the Companies Act 1985. The most relevant objective for pub preservation is probably;
To ensure in every manner possible that producers and retailers of beer act in the best interests of the customer.
A closed pub is not usually in the best interests of the customer.
The central policy statement applicable is that CAMRA believes pubs should not be closed for purely economic reasons because of their social and community asset and amenity aspects.
Those fundamental points are the basis for campaigning about pub closures, not some whim to keep failed pubs open at all costs or portray some poor landlord as an evil, selfish, mean-spirited profiteer.
The possibility of CAMRA owning pubs still exists in its “Memorandum and Articles of Association” but, even supposing it could raise the loans required, should it? Should the Consumers Association run corner shops? Or rogue trader TV programmes become decorators, builders and plumbers? CAMRA did run a number of pubs in the mid 1970s through a subsidiary, I visited the Fox in Bristol then and thought it was a good pub but I don't know its trading history, I couldn't comment on CAMRA's expertise in running pubs, I can only vouch for the quality of their beer festivals and management of an annual income of over £2 million.
The sad fact of course is that recent social and economic changes mean we have too many pubs for the available customer base so we all need to get out and drink in pubs a lot more. Let's make pub closures history!
Firstly, can I thank you for a dignified and intelligent response - something that is hard to come by these days.
I accept that there is a history of landlords misleading people RE the viability of their business, but I don't believe that landlords should be portrayed in such a way as default. At the risk of being very offensive, if 80% of violent muggings were commuted by purple people with tangerine hair, would you accept every single purple person with tangerine hair being strip searched each time they were seen in public?
As I've just responded on the CAMRA forum, it's more the tone of the piece that upsets me, coupled with the questions:
How many Hereford CAMRA members had visited the Rhydspence in the last year? This really tickles my conkers, that a group supposedly about saving pubs only gives a *pint* when the pub is about to be shut down. And then they feel the need to tell the landlord it's his fault. Have they bothered to find out about his personal life in any small way whatsoever, in case that may have something to do with it?
I consider myself a slightly successful publican, given that it's a family business and we're still doing reasonably well 4 years after taking over. But in all honesty, if it starting going wrong, we decided to sell at market prices and nobody took it on, to then be labelled a cheat and be told it was my fault the pub had lost its customers, I'd go nuts.
I always accept responsibility - on the quiet nights like tonight when your nearly empty you start thinking 'what have I done wrong?'. When you take the dog for a walk, and see the other pubs just as quiet, there is a little relief, although I still drive myself to break the mould. But to have a consumer group tell you your the reason its all gone horribly wrong...
Your last sentence is something I'd like to nick as my signature if I may!?
Cheers
I would be far more upset with CAMRA if they were not campaigning about pub closures.
Strongers
31-01-2011, 21:03
How many Hereford CAMRA members had visited the Rhydspence in the last year? This really tickles my conkers, that a group supposedly about saving pubs only gives a *pint* when the pub is about to be shut down. And then they feel the need to tell the landlord it's his fault. Have they bothered to find out about his personal life in any small way whatsoever, in case that may have something to do with it?
A couple of pubs were due to close in North West London in the past couple of years and the locals all banded together, with help from the local CAMRA members, and both pubs are still open. I think that the weight of the local support coupled with the direction of CAMRA worked really well, but if there is no local support I would hope that the planning application department will use their common sense.
Nothing worse than others becoming offended on your behalf!
I would be far more upset with CAMRA if they were not campaigning about pub closures.
I actually disagree with this, I think that pubs are fairly academic to CAMRA. CAMRA should be interested in Real Ale, if it were interested in pubs I would suggest it devote a little less time to promoting the evil empire (otherwise known as JDW) and helped those plucky rebels in their independent real ale promoting pubs (sorry really enjoying the image of Tim Martin in a death star now). Or paying huge amounts to battle the beer tie on monopoly grounds (I have yet to understand how it constitutes a monopoly to force your product out at uncompetitive prices so that people buy from others).
It seems ridiculous to say that a business should sell itself for less than it is worth, even if that worth is in the form of residential.
Would it be sensible of me to suggest that CAMRA enter a program of house building so that it is not economical for landlords to convert their pubs into residential? Which to me makes as much sense as telling them they shouldn't be allowed to make money in a legal manner that is accepted in most other trades.
* Disclaimer, I in no way hate JDW as much as this post implies, and I would most certainly welcome their advertising money :)
I actually disagree with this, I think that pubs are fairly academic to CAMRA.
We they don't, and to quote from the 'Pub Campaigning' page on their website:
"The British pub is a cornerstone of our way of life, more popular than restaurants, clubs, cinemas or other entertainment. Whether you drink real ale or not, CAMRA works to protect the nation's pubs. CAMRA is not just about beer. We think the best place to enjoy a decent pint is in the pub and so we campaign in many ways to promote quality pubs. "
I agree.
Ok, another one of those where I knew that I would regret being over dramatic in my phrasing.
It is sensible that they care about pubs, and even better that they promote quality pubs (although would be better if they allowed us to promote their promotion of quality pubs :moremad: :moremad:).
Trying to keep open a failing pub though? And by failing I mean no one wants to run it as a pub and it is uneconomical to do so.
Trying to keep open a failing pub though? And by failing I mean no one wants to run it as a pub and it is uneconomical to do so.
That's one angle on this, but the other is trying to close a viable pub because it is worth more as residential (in rural areas and villages) or as an 'express'/'local' supermarket (in the suburbs). Run it down, market it as a business but at an inflated price, claim it's unviable, get planning permission for a change of use and kerching - you're in the money!
Not always easy to tell which is the case...
Strongers
31-01-2011, 22:35
Not always easy to tell which is the case...
At the risk of sounding too serious;), I think that was Eddies point in his disgust at the wording of the CAMRA email that had no real content backed up by hard facts, but did have some assuming remarks towards a landlord they had not met and a business they had not visited.
That's one angle on this, but the other is trying to close a viable pub because it is worth more as residential (in rural areas and villages) or as an 'express'/'local' supermarket (in the suburbs). Run it down, market it as a business but at an inflated price, claim it's unviable, get planning permission for a change of use and kerching - you're in the money!
Not always easy to tell which is the case...
I need to do my homework on a bit of this tomorrow (as in I really don't understand the protection it gets for usage).
If the building is special then it should be listed (and in this case is), just to cover that one.
If you can make more money by making it residential then I don't blame anyone for trying/doing it, that to me still marks the business as uneconomical. Hence my quip about maybe CAMRA should build houses, it would after all solve this problem?
I just genuinely don't see this as their problem, it will come as no surprise to anyone who has followed my ramblings that I think it is far better to promote good pubs and convince people in that way to get out and visit pubs and enjoy real ale; rather than to start campaigns that at best are actually statements on social policy (assuming the landlord has run the place down to profit on residential), to at worst having accused someone who has given it a good try of being incompetent.
Edit: Felt I better add a smiley after reading Strongers post in case anyone thought I was getting moody
:D
oldboots
01-02-2011, 09:20
Your last sentence is something I'd like to nick as my signature if I may!?
Cheers
why not I did (from the recent Economist piece on pubs by a journalist whose name I don't know but ought to credit :o, it only says Obituaries Editor)
I think that line is very pertinent to this discussion and reflects my passion for pubs which I know is shared here and in CAMRA. I don't think anyone would defend keeping pubs open at all costs and we have to face the fact that this country is over-pubbed for the available market and some pubs will close.
Hereford CAMRA should only have published that letter if they were sure of their facts and you are correct actions speak louder than words.
Paris_Hilton
01-02-2011, 09:27
It seems ridiculous to say that a business should sell itself for less than it is worth, even if that worth is in the form of residential.
Something is only worth what people are prepared to pay to buy it. If the business has not sold for £750k in 4 years, then it's not worth £750k.
Ultimately it's the free market that decides whether a pub closes or not. If it is popular it will stay open, if it is not it will close.
If people are prepared to take on a viable business, they will, if they are not they won't.
I can understand CAMRAs concerns, but it seems to me that the business is no longer viable due to its location, customer catchment area, running cost etc. Therefore the current landlord has every right to close the door.
Strongers
01-02-2011, 10:12
Something is only worth what people are prepared to pay to buy it. If the business has not sold for £750k in 4 years, then it's not worth £750k.
Ultimately it's the free market that decides whether a pub closes or not. If it is popular it will stay open, if it is not it will close.
If people are prepared to take on a viable business, they will, if they are not they won't.
I can understand CAMRAs concerns, but it seems to me that the business is no longer viable due to its location, customer catchment area, running cost etc. Therefore the current landlord has every right to close the door.
I agree, but over the last few years a lot of popular local pubs have closed due to pressure and money from development companies. Thankfully, in London at least, it is much harder to get a 'change of use' on a property - be that pub, residential, nursery.....
NickDavies
01-02-2011, 10:57
Let's do some sums. What's a reasonable income for two people? £50,000 is about average these days with both working, rather more in the south east. To actually make that you are going to have to take over the counter say £150,000? - that's a guess and I'll stand corrected. That's £3000 a week, or, if you are "wet-led" about 1000 drinks a week you have to sell working all hours without any help. Gastrification is the other route, if there's enough of a market or you're very good at it. Many gastropub owners aren't very good at it and in any case you'll get it in the ear from Camra if beer becomes an afterthought. You've ruined the pub anyway.
It had always been the case that few taking on very small or rural pubs made it their main source of income. Some (traditionally ex footballers and policemen) did it as a retirement passtime, in other cases one half of a couple went out and earned a steady salary, and in the real olden days it was often what farm workers wives did.
I think these day peoples' expectations are different, and few people want to enter that end of the pub trade - and probably needing a whopping bank loan to get there - with no expectation of a decent income.
Ultimately it's the free market that decides whether a pub closes or not. If it is popular it will stay open, if it is not it will close.
Whilst I'd usually use the free market argument myself, there always has to be consideration given to 'irrational acts'.
Eg:
-Pub Cos attempting to flog off prime property assets with no interest in making a pub successful
-A string of crap landlords blighting a decent pub (usually installed at the behest of the pub co above)
-Daft ties on beer and massive rent hikes (pub co/brewery again)
Ultimately, whilst some pubs are simply beyond economic viability and will close and not be much missed, I personally think there are a significant number that have closed because they have not been given the chance to be successful over the last 25 years. That's the real tragedy.
Imagine if Greene King had sold the ailing Nags Head in Reading off to a property developer in 2006?
I shall start my post with the trite comments:
..., I couldn't comment on CAMRA's expertise in running pubs, I can only vouch for the quality of their beer festivals and management of an annual income of over £2 million.
The £2 million point is clearly a matter of opinion, and in my opinion very wrong as demonstrated by the fact they are proposing to increase membership fees and remove the vote on raising them :p, probably for another ill-conceived and faulty moan at the monopolies commission.
Imagine if Greene King had sold the ailing Nags Head in Reading off to a property developer in 2006?
I'm guessing the current owner would have done very well in a different but possibly slightly less desirable property.
Whilst it is desirable to keep classic pubs, it is the publican that makes them a success.
I agree, but over the last few years a lot of popular local pubs have closed due to pressure and money from development companies. Thankfully, in London at least, it is much harder to get a 'change of use' on a property - be that pub, residential, nursery.....
I have kind of accidentally backed myself against this argument and right into the free market one. That said whilst I hate to see these old pubs converted I am not sure that I disagree with it. As I was alluding to in prior posts, I think this is part of a different problem which is the lack of housing stock in the UK (speaking as someone who will probably never be able to afford to buy). Were this problem to be sorted out we wouldn't have to worry about property developers ruining perfectly viable amenities.
But to go to the specific point raised in Ed's blog, the bit that really really gets my goat is this:
If there was only ever going to be one time in your life that you were prepared to write a letter (or e-mail) to the Council planners then this should be it. We cannot allow such an important pub, with such history and potential, to be killed off like this. If we lose the Rhydspence Inn then a precedent might be set meaning that none of our pubs would be safe from speculation in the future.
I despise this tactic, telling people who have never visited the pub and will never visit the pub that they should put in objections and suggest the business is viable :moremad:.
It is a little close to home as I live next door to the Rovers stadium who have put in successful plans to change their stadium, that requested to allow 750 new residents into the area on the basis they would sign a piece of paper saying they didn't own a car (that they openly admitted they couldn't enforce). It was passed after using the get 6000 fans to write in tactic (although I can't say if they were influenced). And equally City who I support have applied for planning and are using similar tactics to try and railroad the local residents (I refused to sign) where they are planning to build (and the local residents have countered with the equally despicable village green provision).
It is a little close to home as I live next door to the Rovers stadium who have put in successful plans to change their stadium, that requested to allow 750 new residents into the area on the basis they would sign a piece of paper saying they didn't own a car (that they openly admitted they couldn't enforce). It was passed after using the get 6000 fans to write in tactic (although I can't say if they were influenced). And equally City who I support have applied for planning and are using similar tactics to try and railroad the local residents (I refused to sign) where they are planning to build (and the local residents have countered with the equally despicable village green provision).
Get this man a Swampy mask :D
Get this man a Swampy mask :D
Screw that, knock all the trees down and build houses I say ;)
arwkrite
01-02-2011, 13:29
The Rhydspence is a a charming property and was well used back in the 1960's when I first came to Herefordshire. A whiff of scandal back in the the 50's with a murder of a female guest who was a mistress of some one or other. An old coaching stop its a picture in black and white.
It sounds as if it has fell to the ills of so many country pubs/inns. The place does not have a surrounding village of any size to support it so the travelling public would be its mainstay.The main road is not one of the busiest. A lovely spot but I would not want to run the place on a bank loan.
oldboots
01-02-2011, 17:43
The £2 million point is clearly a matter of opinion, and in my opinion very wrong as demonstrated by the fact they are proposing to increase membership fees and remove the vote on raising them :p, probably for another ill-conceived and faulty moan at the monopolies commission.
I didn't actually say they'd spent it entirely wisely although I think you infered that, I may have been guilty of a nasty politician's trick there. :D
They might splurge some money on the Full Pint campaignif they realise the MMC/OFT claim is a loser :rolleyes:
I despise this tactic, telling people who have never visited the pub and will never visit the pub that they should put in objections and suggest the business is viable :moremad:
Why?
You may have never have had cause to visit a particular hospital, but one day you might be very grateful that somebody took the trouble to campaign that it was still open.
Same applies to other community facilities such as post offices, village shops, museums, art galleries, churches, castles, forests, beaches, wilderness areas, rural train and bus services, or whatever...
For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not saying that there are no 'basket case' pubs that have no chance of a viable future but in many cases all it takes is one chancer to destroy a community amenity that has served its purpose for decades (and often centuries), and with the right management can continue to do so in the future.
With regard to the particular case of the Rhydspence Inn, I can certainly accept that the original posting contained some unfortunate and inappropriate wording. However, I think that the same can be said about some of the responses to it. Also, I am (perhaps wrongly) dubious about the motives of an owner who closed his pub because that naughty CAMRA boy called him some rude names in the playground.
Remember - "Once they are gone, they will be lost forever" - and be very careful what you wish for.
Why?
You may have never have had cause to visit a particular hospital, but one day you might be very grateful that somebody took the trouble to campaign that it was still open.
Same applies to other community facilities such as post offices, village shops, museums, art galleries, churches, castles, forests, beaches, wilderness areas, rural train and bus services, or whatever...
Interestingly the majority of those however I pay my taxes for and don't expect a private owner to cough up good money after bad for, which for me is a clear distinction.
Well I've been told to drop in on the CAMRA forum. I've spent the last few days drafting and re-drafting an open e-mail to Hereford CAMRA.
At the end of the day, it matters little to me if this 'pub' stays open or not. What does matter to me is the attitude of a local branch of CAMRA towards one of the licensees in the area.
oldboots
04-02-2011, 08:18
This is what the local CAMRA branch says, it's on the CAMRA Forum (http://forum.camra.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1104&p=9574#p9574) but I couldn't find it on the branch website (http://www.herefordcamra.org.uk/)
"STATEMENT FROM HEREFORDSHIRE CAMRA:
We will be sending a detailed report of our findings in due course to Herefordshire Council Planning Department. This information will then be in the public domain for all to see. Regrettably, it is felt inappropriate to share this information with a wider audience at this juncture.
This report will contain detailed evidence, including fully attributable sources, to support our claim that the marketing of the property has been inadequate. However, in so doing, it is not our intention to pass judgement on the owner for his actions.
The matters raised will then be judged by the planning authority on their respective (planning) merits.
Those who disagree with our views are free to make their own submissions to the planners in Hereford.
ENDS"
Well that is helpful then. I'm guessing their next suggestion is that the pub could also deploy drinks to any town in Britain within 45 mins. :p
Can I just check if something about that response is just bothering me or has anyone else picked up on this:
Doesn't it sound like the kind of thing a pubco would do?
I'm reading it as saying 'We have people who know what they are talking about, but we don't want you to know who they are in case you actually have a point and can prove it.'
It hadn't occurred to me, but yes I could see a pubco doing it.
My reading of it doesn't even suggest they have people who know what they are talking about. But yes, definitely we won't tell you in case you poke holes in it. A feeling made worse by the fact that it presumably doesn't enter the public domain until the enquiry is complete.
I've been having a look at the full planning application and one thing that jumped out at me as being the possible CAMRA 'proof' that the valuation is unrealistic.
The pub has been on the market in recently for £750,000. In the literature for the pub it is explained that the turnover in 2007 was £225,000.
There are also details from when the pub was on the market in 2001. At that time it had a turnover of £317,000 but was only on the market at £550,000.
From the owner's covering letter submitted with the planning application:
"Further to previous correspondence with Mr Simon Withers, I enclose an application for change of use on my property. Currently the Rhydspence is operating as a roadside Inn and I wish to return it to residential use... If change of use were granted, it would be my intention to restore the building to it's original status as a character residence."However, from the owner's website for the Rhydspence Inn:
"The Rhydspence Inn is, and probably always has been, a hostelry. The building dates from 1380 with extensions built in the 17th and 20th centuries. Regrettably there are no Records or Documents to substantiate any claims, but the style of building, size and location are a clear guide. We are fairly certain that the inn was built to provide comfort for travellers and pilgrims from Abbey Cwmhir to Hereford Cathedral."Mr Glover's change of tack seems pretty transparent to me...
Reading that I have to admit it is the bit from the web site that reads like a lie.
Also what has that got to do with it being a viable business? Or is it that you are concerned about the welfare of the travellers and the pilgrims?
oldboots
05-02-2011, 17:26
Or is it that you are concerned about the welfare of the travellers and the pilgrims?
I think the point is more about the veracity of the person supplying the "evidence"
I think the point is more about the veracity of the person supplying the "evidence"
Quite!
And my point is its called marketing. It wouldn't surprise me if the owner of the pub had never read that idiot blurb that was on the web site.
And even if they have I think it just illustrates the fact that they know a bit about selling. Terms like "there are no Records or Documents to substantiate any claims" roughly translate as this is a complete load of b*llshit I have made up for the tourists who want to be sold to.
Or do you really buy your bread from Marks & Spencers because it isn't just bread?
Edit: In fact, thinking about it if anything that demonstrates he has made a go of his business, why have a web site let alone one that sounds like it is trying to sell if you are trying to run a business into the ground?
Terms like "there are no Records or Documents to substantiate any claims" roughly translate as this is a complete load of b*llshit I have made up for the tourists who want to be sold to.
And, equally, my point is that the viability issue might roughly translate as this is a complete load of b*llshit I have made up for the planners so that I can convert my unique and historic inn and sell it as a fancy millionaire's residence for a fat profit!
And, equally, my point is that the viability issue might roughly translate as this is a complete load of b*llshit I have made up for the planners so that I can convert my unique and historic inn and sell it as a fancy millionaire's residence for a fat profit!
It might be, CAMRA are saying it is and telling me that I should complain and haven't even managed to provide marketing bullshit to justify their claims.
oldboots
06-02-2011, 13:46
This document (http://www.camra.org.uk/download.aspx?o=182043) is the test that CAMRA (should) apply in these cases, whither Herefordshire did in this case we don't know but it would be silly of them not to have before raising a planning objection or going into print.
I think my disdain for that document can be summed up by asking why they haven't asked how long a piece of string is? I did only glance over it though so I might of missed the bit where they define at what point viability is arrived at.
Regardless though, the questions asked in it are perfectly valid, and have nothing to do with my issue.
If I walk up to you, point at someone and tell you to punch them, are you right to punch them? Whilst CAMRA may have perfectly valid reasons for thinking that pub is viable maybe they should try sharing them?
oldboots
07-02-2011, 08:23
If I walk up to you, point at someone and tell you to punch them, are you right to punch them?
I don't think you analogy reflects this situation at all, the invitation to object was sent to a CAMRA forum specifically about campaigning against pub closures and presumably read by people who share the aims of CAMRA and didn't just join for the Wetherspoons vouchers. It is not about being told to commit some random act but an invitation to exercise your right to object to something if you feel it is wrong. A better analogy might be if I pointed out some antisocial behaviour and asked you to phone the police.
In a thread where we have compared hospitals to pubs I feel my exaggeration is a modest one.
I still think a fairer analogy however would be if you walked up to me and pointed at a youth walking down the street and told me to phone the police. Where is the evidence of a crime in this?
There seems a real aversion in the replies to tell me what was done wrong, no shortage of innuendo though. To my mind giving up on a business that can't work isn't a crime. I am working from a position of presumption of innocence here, would be nice to know others still believed in that right.
And whilst comparisons to violence might seem unfair. If I was in a situation where I was haemorrhaging money, and upon trying to solve it I discovered that rumours and innuendo were being spread that might jeopardise my latest attempt to get into a situation where I was in control of my own destiny again - I know I would feel like it was a bloody big kick in the bollocks from those people.
oldboots
07-02-2011, 09:55
I too would like to see the evidence for the viability of the pub and the alledged overpricing of the business but I don't think we'll see that until the application is heard. Herefordshire CAMRA acknowledges that this man's business has failed, it also believes that someone else can make a better job of it as a pub and would like to see that avenue fully explored as it believes this hasn't happened, nothing wrong in that view is there?
This is just an objection to a planning application after all.
Nothing wrong with having a view at all.
There is something very wrong with accusing people of things and asking others to act on it without being willing to provide evidence.
oldboots
07-02-2011, 10:42
As far as I can see all he's been "accused of" is having a failed business, which appears to be true and unchallenged by anyone; and like lots of others trying to gain the best price for an asset, nothing really wrong in that and it should be easily proved or disproved without CAMRA's evidence.
It is the job of consumer organisations to ask their members to object to something the organisation has a policy against, the members don't actually have to respond if they don't agree or don't think the case has merit. The planning department will dismiss objections that don't stand up, that's their job.
What CAMRA policy has been broken?
(Don't point me at the document again, tell me what part of that document merited the mail they sent out).
Where is the evidence so that I can decide whether or not the case has merit?
Where in CAMRA's original text did it suggest you don't actually have to respond?
oldboots
07-02-2011, 12:54
What CAMRA policy has been broken?
(Don't point me at the document again, tell me what part of that document merited the mail they sent out).
Well it's a policy not a CAMRA "law" so I don't think it can be broken. It's not in the Pub Viability Test document, which is a specific tool, but section 14 of CAMRA's External policy document is dedicated to Pub Preservation, section 14.6 is the most relevant to this but it's not in the public domain so I can't quote from it. The details of the Save Our Pubs campaign are found here (http://www.camra.org.uk/page.aspx?o=294840), but there are a lot of documents and are mainly about how to campaign. The Detailed Guidance link in Campaigning to Save a Pub shows the way to object, the bit about letters is in the Planning Application Detailed Guidance link in the section below it:
"1.12
Your main method of submitting your comments on the application will be to write a letter to the Chief Planning Officer. Most Councils will also accept comments by email. Always mention the address of the property, and what is being proposed; also include in your letter the Council’s application reference number. If your comments are submitted in time, they will be fully considered when the decision is made. Most applications these days are delegated to senior planning officers, but under some circumstances (for instance, a very controversial application) the decision may be made by a planning committee.
1.13
The more people who write, the more notice may be taken of what you say, although you should write your own individual letter and not sign photocopies of the same text. Petitions are of limited value if a lot of people who have signed obviously live a long way away."
So the letter sent out was to raise awareness and follow the advice in 1.13. Section 1.5 in the Detailed Guidance link - Campaigning to Save a Pub may also explain CAMRA Herefordshire's actions.
Where is the evidence so that I can decide whether or not the case has merit? The starting point would be to compare the details here (http://www.thepublican.com/property_details.asp?ac=319657&ref=ad) with similar properties on sites of pub agents like Sidney Phillips or Fleurets. I don't think the asking price is more than 20% above what looks a market value. You could check out Trip Advisor (http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g616266-d602634-Reviews-Rhydspence_Inn-Whitney_on_Wye_Herefordshire_England.html) to see if that adds up (50-50 in my opinion if you read the reviews and don't just look at the scores). Other review sites are available:D
Where in CAMRA's original text did it suggest you don't actually have to respond?
"If there was only ever going to be one time in your life that you were
prepared to write a letter (or e-mail) to the Council planners then this
should be it. "
This looks optional to me.
Ok, this is actually going to be my last post in this thread because it is actually pissing me off.
Let me draw up a purely hypothetical situation, this is completely made up, and any similarities to people living or dead is purely coincidental.
----------------------------------------------
Some pub loving soul buys up an inn over 10 years ago, it is a decent plot where he is going to live and do his job, it costs a lot of money so he knows it is a risk as he mortgages himself in as far as he can, but he has a business plan and knows he can make a go of it.
Sometime later in 2001 he feels unable to run with it, maybe it is a family issue, maybe it is just becoming too much work, maybe even he is just testing the water, but it is a profitable business so he knows he is doing something right. So he puts his home and business on the market for £550k. Sadly no one shares the dream he did when he set it up - so eventually he just decides he should go on with it.
Some years later and during this time the business has turned from profit to loss, he has tried all he can think of and even followed the advice of a local pressure group that tried to help (let’s call them VID-E-O). Despite all this though he is losing money; what with staff costs and the increased need for staff as he is becoming to unfit to do all the work required, fuel bills have gone up, and everyone seems to go abroad for their hols. Anyway, he is losing tens of thousands of pounds a year, but it is still a running business, and he lives in it, and at least house prices have doubled in the last 10 years, so the bank is willing to extend his loans. But it has gotten to the point that he needs to sell it, he knows he can’t turn it around and it would be better for him to cash in and live somewhere with less stresses.
So on the market it goes for a perfectly fair amount, I mean it is still a house, his house in fact. But no one buys it, so he reduces it and reduces it until it gets to £750k, somewhat less than the doubling of prices you might expect for house value, but hey, the business needs a little bit of work now. He can’t take it any lower though, because he needs to pay off the debts, and be able to live wherever he moves to. And for goodness sakes, if that inn is viable it is worth that.
Sadly no one buys, so desperate to stop adding to his debt, and give himself a chance in retirement he comes up with plan B, if he can convert his large Inn to residential he can make more than enough money to sort things out. So whilst he loves pubs, he thinks to hell with it, I need the money, I need to get out of here, and if anyone else loved pubs surely they would have bought it, it is a fair price. So planning for conversion goes in.
His local villagers are a mixture of supportive and not - so the 50% who did regularly come into his Inn lodge complaints (both of them). Fair enough he thinks I would do that. Then the local VID-E-O group who he had listened to sent out a letter to a 1000 local followers, of which a 100 send in complaints (he only wishes he has sold that many pints in the last month). And the planning he put in is rejected, he doesn’t know why really, but he wonders why he was VID-E-O’d.
Fast forward 2 years. His lovely Inn is closed, the bank owns it but doesn’t know what to do with it as the roof begins to rot away. The man who this story is about is bankrupt and happily or otherwise living off state benefits. But the pub was saved (Yay another glorious win for VID-E-O).
---------------------------------------------------------------
Now look, this is all clearly b*****t, and I apologise sincerely for where I collided with the truth. And whilst I don’t believe a word of what I just wrote I believe it as much as anything else that has been written in this thread.
It is important to me to know why I am doing things, or why I am being asked to do things, I think it serves no purpose to blindly sh*t on people.
And here is a final kicker question, assume for a second that story was true. Who in their right mind would buy a country pub?
And here is a final kicker question, assume for a second that story was true. Who in their right mind would buy a country pub?
:D
Although I wouldn't touch any pub with a really long stick that doesn't have a minimum of 3 dozen houses and a couple of shops within 'walking' distance
oldboots
09-02-2011, 08:08
Ed, I read your blog but it wouldn't let me post a comment otherwise I'd have said this there rather than here.
Some things bother me about this, 10 years without making a profit, I wonder how he funds that? I would have thought bankruptcy would have occured after about three years of no profit in a small business. Surely his bank would have given up by then?
Have property prices varied that much in Herefordshire and why would someone be willing to sell a million pound business for £350k?
Old Blue
09-02-2011, 08:16
The 100 people in Conrad's hypothetical example would be perfectly capable of keeping the pub open, if only they could bring themselves to drink in it, instead of writing letters about it.
The 100 people in Conrad's hypothetical example would be perfectly capable of keeping the pub open, if only they could bring themselves to drink in it, instead of writing letters about it.
Indeed. They've had 20 years to 'save' it by using it.
Ed, I read your blog but it wouldn't let me post a comment otherwise I'd have said this there rather than here.
Some things bother me about this, 10 years without making a profit, I wonder how he funds that? I would have thought bankruptcy would have occured after about three years of no profit in a small business. Surely his bank would have given up by then?
Have property prices varied that much in Herefordshire and why would someone be willing to sell a million pound business for £350k?
Erm, I don't know why a comment wouldn't get through on the blog - I don't know enough about how that works - sorry!
I can only presume that over the years he put more and more in from personal funds, selling off assets etc. It is his home as well as business. But the truthful answer is I don't know.
Old Blue
10-02-2011, 07:34
Ed
I'm sort of coming round to being with Conrad on this one. Several posters have helpfully dug into the available facts to see whether either side of the story stacks up, but unless anyone has additional gems still to share, it does seem you could read it either way. So I'm thinking maybe it's time we all agree to give the landlord the benefit of the doubt and move on?
However, that doesn't help at all with the underlying question of what, if anything, can be done to address the relentless demise of proper pubs, it just means we've identified that "CAMRA having a go at the publican on the internet" isn't likely to be the ticket. Wondering if we should move on to a new thread on the wider subject.
OB
Ok, I hate posting after flouncing out the room, but it feels like I should add this as I want to make sure it gets seen.
Old Blue - Ed has already tried to answer your question (http://studentbrewer.blogspot.com/2011/02/publicans-trade-group.html) last night on his blog, speaking personally I hope it goes somewhere. Also I am not sure if you saw his further post on the Rydspence (http://studentbrewer.blogspot.com/2011/02/more-on-rhydspence.html) which old boots followed up on earlier in the thread.
You should feel free to start the thread with the question about pubs, I think the one thing we have shown in this thread is that we have no shortage of opinions, which is good :)
http://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/news.ma/article/89699
Old Blue
12-02-2011, 11:12
Old Blue - Ed has already tried"]tried (http://studentbrewer.blogspot.com/2011/02/publicans-trade-group.html) to answer your question last night on his blog, speaking personally I hope it goes somewhere.
Ah, sorry Ed, I hadn't discovered Blog Tracker. I hope this goes somewhere too. I'm new to this web forum lark, so please bear with me whilst I get the hang of it...
Ah, sorry Ed, I hadn't discovered Blog Tracker. I hope this goes somewhere too. I'm new to this web forum lark, so please bear with me whilst I get the hang of it...
Pleasure to have more voices discussing different point of views. It is quite strange keeping up with who said what where, with comments on the blog, here, CAMRA forum and email :o
Presented without comment, article starts on page 3.
http://www.herefordcamra.org.uk/latest_LR.pdf
arwkrite
30-03-2011, 13:34
A number of pubs in Herefordshire have been refurbished and reopened. It would appear that a couple of chaps have both money and faith to invest in local pubs. I do not know who they are but the local pub list would be shorter without their efforts. Well done and the best of luck to them.
Oggwyn Trench
30-03-2011, 18:14
A number of pubs in Herefordshire have been refurbished and reopened. It would appear that a couple of chaps have both money and faith to invest in local pubs. I do not know who they are but the local pub list would be shorter without their efforts. Well done and the best of luck to them.
I have noticed a few pubs reopening in Herefordshire , like this one http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/72935/ just up the road from you
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