Cross Keys temperance inn near Sedbergh, Cumbria

[sheffield hatter]

Not sure if the Cross Keys temperance inn should be on Pubs Galore. OK, yes, it's a public house, but on the other hand, you can't get an alcoholic beverage there for love nor money. Check it out at: www.cautleyspout.co.uk. Here's a brief history (from the same website):

"Following a jolly evening at the Cross Keys a relative of a local family by the name of Buck was being helped home in the direction of Ravenstonedale by the then Landlord. It would seem that this relative fell down the river banking. In an attempt to assist him the Landlord fell into the river Rawthey and subsequently drowned. On the 27th October 1902 the Cross Keys was sold by auction at the Bull Hotel, Sedbergh, for £900.00 to Mrs Sarah Buck of Ravenstonedale. Mrs Buck re-sold it to Mrs Edith Adelaide Bunney who removed the liquor license, with the result that since 1902 the Cross Keys has been a Temperance Inn."

What do other users think?

[aleandhearty]

Debatably, you could argue that the site is about actual pubs first and what they serve, second. It is a grey area, but given the historical context of the place and the beautiful setting, I think it deserves to be be listed. It's not completely 'dry'. They have a BYO policy, with free corkage and glasses supplied.

[Conrad]

Debatably, you could argue that the site is about actual pubs first and what they serve, second. It is a grey area, but given the historical context of the place and the beautiful setting, I think it deserves to be be listed. It's not completely 'dry'. They have a BYO policy, with free corkage and glasses supplied.
+1, site is about pubs really I think although the forum is full of Real Ale imbibers.

[Rex_Rattus]

As you know we have gone over the question about what constitutes a pub, and what should qualify for inclusion on the site, ad nauseum. I've taken the view that in order to qualify for inclusion an establishment should sell alcoholic beverages, primarily because I wouldn't want to see the site full of cafes and sandwich bars. But I agree with A&H; this is a special case and should be included. I hope that when it is listed that Sheffield Hatter posts a recommendation about the history and, perhaps even more importantly, points out that it doesn't sell alcohol in order to warn any unwary travellers!

I might even ask for The Turk's Head down at Wapping to be included. This is now a cafe, but housed in an old pub with all the original pub signage still in place.

[RogerB]

The Temperence pubs were an integral part of the country's drinking history and I have no problem acknowledging their part on this site. I recall some time ago (may have been on the other channel) bringing up the subject of a Muslim pub somewhere around Manchester way which is to all intents and purposes a pub albeit sans alcohol. One could argue that such pubs are of interest to some sections of the community and therefore worthy of inclusion although I would hope the first person to review such a place underlines the appropriate shortcomings.

[Wittenden]

In my worst nightmares I wonder about the future of the pub in a dry England:would we go to the pub soley for the company and the wide choice of soft drinks or food?I'm not sure.I dothink that the Temperance pubs are an important part of the equation,and although I've never been in the Cross Keys, its a fine looking place, in a wonderful part of the Dales

[rpadam]

Not sure if the Cross Keys temperance inn should be on Pubs Galore. OK, yes, it's a public house, but on the other hand, you can't get an alcoholic beverage there for love nor money. Check it out at: www.cautleyspout.co.uk. Here's a brief history (from the same website):

"Following a jolly evening at the Cross Keys a relative of a local family by the name of Buck was being helped home in the direction of Ravenstonedale by the then Landlord. It would seem that this relative fell down the river banking. In an attempt to assist him the Landlord fell into the river Rawthey and subsequently drowned. On the 27th October 1902 the Cross Keys was sold by auction at the Bull Hotel, Sedbergh, for £900.00 to Mrs Sarah Buck of Ravenstonedale. Mrs Buck re-sold it to Mrs Edith Adelaide Bunney who removed the liquor license, with the result that since 1902 the Cross Keys has been a Temperance Inn."

What do other users think?
As the person who suggested that the pub should be added, I would of course say that it should be listed on the site!

However, I will admit that there is a minor technical difference between this and the remaining 99.998% of listed pubs in that it doesn't actually sell any beer...

However, even bearing that in mind, it is in all other respects a pub and (in my opinion) fully deserving its place on this site - which is, after all, Pubs Galore rather than Beer-serving Pubs Galore!

[Conrad]

Pubs Galore rather than Beer-serving Pubs Galore!

Be careful of that defence, it can come back to haunt you, I know ;)

[Al 10000]

However, even bearing that in mind, it is in all other respects a pub and (in my opinion) fully deserving its place on this site - which is, after all, Pubs Galore rather than Beer-serving Pubs Galore![/QUOTE]

In my opinion a PUB is an establishment that serves beer and other alcoholic drinks and i would say that 99.998% of people using the Pubs Galore site and the Forum do this because of their love of Beer and Pubs. :cheers::drinkup:

[Conrad]

If by beer you mean lager then you are probably right, but I would be happy to guess that 90%+ of the main site users are drinkers of the fizzy stuff, they are just less likely to review and even less likely to be on the forum.

Why show closed pubs if we are only interested in if they serve beer though?

[Al 10000]

Hi Conrad,

Yes you are right this site is about pubs past and present and as you know i do put pubs on from the past so i hold my hands up and say sorry about that last comment i had my head in a real ale bubble yet again and did'nt think what most people use this site for.

:whistle: Alan.

[sheffield hatter]

I have now visited the Cross Keys Temperance Inn, intending to take a photo and write a review. The photos have been uploaded, and if you look carefully you will see a man standing near the door in one of the photos. As I approached the door, intending to go in for a drink, he accosted me thus:

"Can I help you?"

Now, I've had this question put to me a number of times in a number of different ways, but this one clearly had the intonation which implies: "You seem to have gone astray and are encroaching on private property. Now f*** off before I set the dogs on you!"

I replied that I had been taking a photo of the pub and now wanted to go in for a drink. The landlord (for it was he) said "It's not a pub". I said that I realised that it did not serve alcohol but that I understood one could go in and purchase a non-alcoholic drink. He then told me there was a private party on - there was no notice of this outside as I have seen on numerous other occasions when a (proper) pub hires all or part of itself out like this.

I said this shed new light on his offer to help me, because clearly he had no intention of helping me. He said he thought I might have been one of the party, or was seeking directions. The tone of voice used made it clear that he didn't expect me to believe this, and didn't care either.

I said that it was a shame I couldn't come in for a drink, as the pub was listed on a website called Pubs Galore and that if it wasn't possible to get a drink then it might be delisted. (This was just a bluff, of course!;)) He said "Fine", and went inside.

Luckily I had already purchased some non-alcoholic beverages from the alcohol-free shop (http://www.alcoholfree.co.uk/):) in Failsworth on my way to Cumbria, so I was able to drown my sorrows later.

What do others think about a review based on the above? How much can I leave in or what should I leave out? I like Rex Rattus's idea about adding something of the history of the place (from my first post last December), and obviously I won't give it a rating, having failed miserably in my attempt to buy a drink. I'm disappointed not to have made it inside, of course, but I now have no desire whatsoever to go back for a second attempt. He might threaten me with a shotgun next time. :eek:

Any volunteers?

[Old Blue]

I think that's an excellent review, SH. Suggest you just post it and then knock back some Henderson's Relish straight out of the bottle if you're still feeling temperate.

[aleandhearty]

What do others think about a review based on the above? How much can I leave in or what should I leave out? I like Rex Rattus's idea about adding something of the history of the place...

I think most of us agreed that the criteria for inclusion were largely based on its historical significance and so a potted history is a given. After your rather unfortunate experience I don't think some mention of what happened is unreasonable. A great shame, after just trying to do the guy a favour.

[trainman]

I think it should be posted as set out above. Litigious concerns have been mooted elsewhere, but any site of this ilk surely ought to be to warn punters of pubs to avoid, as well as commending those to visit. If this idiot is so disinterested in customers, it'll hardly matter. One has to wonder how such folk find themselves in a service industry, or any people-facing role.

[Strongers]

I think that most of us would get grumpy if we had to spend all day everyday in a pub with no beer.

[trainman]

I think that most of us would get grumpy if we had to spend all day everyday in a pub with no beer.

Agreed, but we choose NOT to, and therefore mostly avoid venting our acohol-less spleen.

[sheffield hatter]

Thanks to all for their comments, encouragement and commiseration. (I decided to swerve the "Henderson's Relish straight out of the bottle", though.) I have now posted the review. If anyone has any further comments on or suggestions for amendments to the review, I would be happy to consider them.

Cheers