Micro-breweries and 'ticking' culture: Counter-productive regarding real choice?

[aleandhearty]

This is a topic that’s arisen socially quite a lot recently, in one guise or another. Perhaps it says something about the current buoyant state of the real ale market that the question can be asked at all? I suspect even three or four years ago there would have been no need.

A couple of weekends ago the wife and I were sat in one of our favourite pubs and worked across the six pumps. All the beers were in reasonable condition, at the very least, but two of them were downright unpleasant regarding flavour and the other four very bland, with little distinguishing character. Although it wasn’t quite a ‘John Smith’s man’ moment, my wife commented ‘Wouldn’t it be nice just to have something we know?’ To my surprise, I actually felt the same way.

With yet two more microbreweries rumoured to be opening soon in West Yorkshire, I live in a county that offers incredible choice, both from local producers and those available from surrounding areas. However, what is that choice based on? I think there’s a reasonable case for saying that a fair percentage of beers produced just aren’t up to snuff and that ‘ticking’ culture has a lot to answer for. The ingrained belief that new beers drive the market is debatably backfiring.

In my opinion there are two main problems. Some micros don’t have enough technical skill or experience to offer consistent quality in their brews; and secondly, by constantly initiating miniscule changes to hopping rates etc to create a ‘new’ beer, a ‘core range’ of beers for the drinker to latch onto and appreciate is often missing, or neglected. Of course, beers do evolve and there has to be room for experimentation. For example, I particularly admire how Roosters and Abbeydale use the respective Outlaw and Dr. Morton’s labels for their more left-field beers.

I’m sure some will argue that the market is self-regulating, regarding which breweries will survive and that the occasional boring session in a pub is a small price to pay for such diversity. However, I’m not entirely convinced. What do others think?

[ETA]

I agree that to a certain extent the market self-regulates, but to take that as the definitive way to control what is on offer risks decending into the 1970s scenario of decent beer's being supressed by the megakegs.

Personally, I like a mix of both. It's always good to try a new beer, and a "tasting" session is a good way of spending a night out when in the right company. But equally, it is a pleasant, comforting (and veyr low stress) experience to walk into my local and enjoy a steady, predictable pint with people who lie just to the left of the CAMRA-lagerlout continuum.

So, in all, well done to the experimental micros, you have a definite niche, but please don't pretend to the thrones off the more established brewers who continue to provide so much pleasure to a much wider section of society.

[Soup Dragon]

I think, if you go into a pub with 6 handpulls (aka handpumps) and they all taste blandish to crap, that is the fault of the pub for putting them on together.

I am always going to chose a pint of Bathams MILD over Hobbyflabs Christmas Bonfire XB, however, i may ask for a sample, rather than risk wasting a pint, or even a half.

[Quinno]

I have an antipathy to breweries who appear to brew like Starbucks - eg to my mind make a vast VAT of 'regular' beer and then add basically something akin to syrup to change the flavour a little, then badge it with some tossy steam train or animal and call it part of a 'series'. Like Archers (RIP ha ha). I can think of a few others...

[trainman]

Not having a dig at Little Ale Cart there Quinno? Their beers seem similar, but all good.

Maybe I've been lucky enough to mostly avoid the blandest of micro offerings, but I do understand the argument for the 'safety' of a recognised reliable, especially when drinking with others who may not be as, let's say, curious, as me. That's why my bank of 5 featured Tiger, though it could equally have been Landlord.

[ROBCamra]

I have an antipathy to breweries who appear to brew like Starbucks - eg to my mind make a vast VAT of 'regular' beer and then add basically something akin to syrup to change the flavour a little, then badge it with some tossy steam train or animal and call it part of a 'series'. Like Archers (RIP ha ha). I can think of a few others...

That'll be Cottage then? ;) I can't remember a really good beer from Cottage and supposedly I've had loads of different ones.

[trainman]

That'll be Cottage then?

Hmm, I can't say I've ever been a fan of Cottage either, or Pilgrim or Dorking brews.

[RogerB]

That'll be Cottage then? ;) I cant remember a really good beer from Cottage and supposedly I've had loads of different ones.

I think I have just had one cottage beer rebadged 25 times. I don't mind them but they are generally very bland.

I agree with A&H to the extent that micros are in danger of flooding the market but to survive they need to get a decent portfolio of ales into the system. The problem is that in some places (like Yorkshire) there are so many that it is becoming hard to make comparisons between breweries and beers as they become much of a muchness - I'm sure the real beer tasting experts are having their skills stretched to the limit when it comes to trying to make them all sound different. Luckily I don't have access to that many although some of the newer Kent Breweries are beginning to filter out in my direction. At the moment it is quite exciting to see new beers and breweries cropping up in my area but I can understand the downside of it as well.

[oldboots]

I have to admit it gets on my wick that small brewers with a brewing capacity of about two polypins claim to make a range of different ales as well as seasonals and specials. Our local CAMRA branch has a beef about the room all these so-called core brews take up in the GBG, space that ought to be devoted to pubs selling the stuff. I think a lot of this culture has to do with appealing to tickers and the naturally curious. Using unusual or themed names is a micro breweries attempt to differentiate their products from any other microbrewery, especially if they haven't been around very long, ordinary sounding X's Bitter or Y's Stout don't stand out from the crowd, fancy pump clips is another method used of course. The names sometimes stick, which I suppose means the marketing has worked, for example Cottage are always associated in my mind with any railway themed name even if they didn't brew it.
Another thing, as others have already said, is an unbalanced bar, I don't really want to see 6-8 handpumps all selling golden ales at between 3.8 and 4.5%, I want a bit of choice, there are times when I just long for a boring brown bitter to break the monotony.

[Bucking Fastard]

a&h has raised a very good point so here's my two penn'orth.
Some microbrewers must feel there is a market for a large array of their brews which can result in a quest for quantity over quality.If this descends into "clip brewing" then this is a great forum for naming and shaming and already some likely suspects have been mentioned.However I suspect that ultimately the market will decide and poor micro brewers will be exposed.
I feel the publican must take responsibility for the beer served on his premises.Like a&h ,on my travels I have also been in 6+ pump real ale outlets where I haven't fancied another pint of any of the brews on offer.Some publicans need to spend more time on selecting both well brewed ales as well as providing a range of beer styles.I would always try and comment on this in a review.
I agree that it is probably more satisying to drink in a tied house with a small range of well kept regular beers (Everards springs to mind) than dive into a real ale outlet which is knocking out indifferent micro brewery ales with little thought behind the selection process.

[gillhalfpint]

I agree so much with what you have just said, there are far too many much of the sameness golden beers around now, and also about the publication of so many beers by a brewery in the GBG then say in the writeup "usually only found in the pub". The one I'm thinking of had a core list of over 20 ales, but you had to go into Wales for them, but thankfully 2011 GBG has not published the list like they have done in previous years.

I think there is a machine with allsorts of flavourings in, and the brewer just pushes a button to add what a pub preferred for their customers, a touch of vanilla, ginger, fruit or whatever. I often think there is one beer that does the rounds in this way. (Cornish brewery's spring to mind where many pubs have a house brew).

I was aware in the Vat & Fiddle in Nottingham that even though there were beers I had not had on the bar, once I got started on the Castle Rock Screech Owl I stayed with it, purely because I was enjoying it so much, but it did cross my mind that it was something I rarely do in the ticker orientated market. Yes there is a place for a local pub with one or two regular proven known beers such as Landlord, plus a couple or more of guests to give variety.

I don't have a local that I can wander round to and enjoy an evening drinking in company I know, and have always regarded the Wellington as my local, but it is rare to drink 2 of the same in there. It is not a local in the true sense of the word as I don't get to see the same folk in there when I go, but others doing exactly the same as I am - checking the screen and clips for new beers.

Good thread this one as it does make me think about breweries and beers - how odd is that!

[Thuck Phat]

A fascinating thread with some interesting points being made.

I agree with A&H that this debate is indicative of the health of the real ale market and we ought to bear in mind that this is very high quality problem to have compared to those issues facing the real ale drinker over previous decades.

Two points resonate with me:

Firstly, I think that ultimately a microbrewer has to brew beers that people want to drink and are reasonably marketed (or no-one will get the chance to drink them) in order to survive and flourish. The balance shifts towards a marketing emphasis when considering national brewers, Wells Bomber springs to mind. Our behaviour as consumers will clearly affect the success of that beer, so for example if you go the pure ticker route then you may well not have an extra pint or two of the beer you really like but will move on to try new ales. I suspect that the majority don't take this extreme view and, like me, get quaffing on finding a beer that suits but this is probably the nub of the debate. To this end, the market ultimately decides and the new microbrewer may get a shot at selling bland beers initially but ultimately has to brew quality ales and market them well. Joy for us consumers.

Secondly, I agree with the point about the importance of ale selection by landlords, which is clearly influenced to a degree by how well the microbrewers market their beers as well as the landlord trying to sell what works best with his customer base. Unfortunately many do seem to get this wrong with limited styles and strengths across a reasonable number of handpumps. It's difficult for us, if we're infrequent visitors, to carp as the landlord may be aiming to the market he knows best. Nonethless, as Mr Fastard says, it's always worth pointing this out in a review as subsequent visitors are then forewarned.

I suspect that all I've done there is rehash the previous arguments but I feel better for it.

[Brewguru]

I could rant on this subject all day, but will try to keep it short.
The truth is there are more Real Ale Breweries in the UK then any time in generations, and accordingly a wider choice of beers. Inevitably there are going to be good breweries and bad ones, good beers and bad beers. It doesn't matter what size the brewery is - Thornbridge started small and made excellent beers almost from the off. Other breweries are not so fortunate and there is the problem. To make a good beer needs more than a good recipe, it needs skill, care and sound judgement. Brewing is an art with a bucket full of science thrown in for good measure.
Hence bad brewers will not have well balanced recipes, poor hygiene and over or under conditioned beer. They soon get found out.
Bigger brewers are also not immune to mistakes - Marstons really messed up Ringwood for a good few months when they took over but have now sorted it out. They have tried and tested recipes and procedures as would be expected in a more corporate setting. Trouble is, they cannot do anything too radical - it takes a lot to produce something new with marketing etc to launch a new brand and low risk is their strategy in general.
The other side of the coin is pubs, having 6 hand pulls with 2 beers off tells me that there are too many on in that pub. A beer that has been on the bar more than 3 days is starting to lose any aroma and finer hop flavours as it oxidises, which is where blandness creeps in. I do agree that a pub needs to offer at least one every day (national or regional brewer) style beer, not everyone is up for experimentation!
To sum up my feelings, get a feel for what the micro is like in terms of quality, bear in mind the quality of the pub and weigh it up. I avoid some breweries as I know they are not to my liking, but I will always go back to them at some point to check my opinion is still sound.

[NickDavies]

I think we all agree that many pubs could do better in providing an interesting choice of ales. My experience (and others may wish to differ) is that owner-managed freehouses tend to get it right - they're likely to have an old favourite or two, via whoever they get their lager and Guinness from and, if they're enthusiasts, a decent and ever changing choice of guests. Pub chains are less reliable, and even JDW branches are perfectly capable of putting up half a dozen citric golden ales or six dark soupy beers all well over 5% abv. I think in a lot of these places it's down to area managers who don't really care about anything beyond Head Office box ticking, and if they can tick the 'Real Ale Sold' box along with 'Cask Mark' and 'LocAle' that's some handy plus points at staff appraisal time.

[Eddie86]

I have to admit it gets on my wick that small brewers with a brewing capacity of about two polypins claim to make a range of different ales as well as seasonals and specials. Our local CAMRA branch has a beef about the room all these so-called core brews take up in the GBG, space that ought to be devoted to pubs selling the stuff. I think a lot of this culture has to do with appealing to tickers and the naturally curious. Using unusual or themed names is a micro breweries attempt to differentiate their products from any other microbrewery, especially if they haven't been around very long, ordinary sounding X's Bitter or Y's Stout don't stand out from the crowd, fancy pump clips is another method used of course. The names sometimes stick, which I suppose means the marketing has worked, for example Cottage are always associated in my mind with any railway themed name even if they didn't brew it.
Another thing, as others have already said, is an unbalanced bar, I don't really want to see 6-8 handpumps all selling golden ales at between 3.8 and 4.5%, I want a bit of choice, there are times when I just long for a boring brown bitter to break the monotony.

I was quite disappointed in a well-recommended pub that I visited yesterday. With the long public transport journey and chill autumn air putting me in the mood for a dark, warming beer of some description, I was upset to find that they had no dark beers out of the 6 ales and 8 kegs on offer.

I was even more upset to then find this 'freehouse' had 5 beers from the same brewery out of the 6 on offer. The descriptions on the clips were:

India Pale Ale
Pacific Pale Ale
New World Pale Ale
Traditional Bitter
and another Pale Ale

Now the brewery has won numerous awards for it's IPA, but as it was midday I tried 3 of the others from this brewery. They all tasted bland and slightly hoppy - just different hop flavours in each. I felt let down by a respected brewery and a respected freehouse.

[Eddie86]

I could rant on this subject all day, but will try to keep it short.
The truth is there are more Real Ale Breweries in the UK then any time in generations, and accordingly a wider choice of beers. Inevitably there are going to be good breweries and bad ones, good beers and bad beers. It doesn't matter what size the brewery is - Thornbridge started small and made excellent beers almost from the off. Other breweries are not so fortunate and there is the problem. To make a good beer needs more than a good recipe, it needs skill, care and sound judgement. Brewing is an art with a bucket full of science thrown in for good measure.
Hence bad brewers will not have well balanced recipes, poor hygiene and over or under conditioned beer. They soon get found out.
Bigger brewers are also not immune to mistakes - Marstons really messed up Ringwood for a good few months when they took over but have now sorted it out. They have tried and tested recipes and procedures as would be expected in a more corporate setting. Trouble is, they cannot do anything too radical - it takes a lot to produce something new with marketing etc to launch a new brand and low risk is their strategy in general.
The other side of the coin is pubs, having 6 hand pulls with 2 beers off tells me that there are too many on in that pub. A beer that has been on the bar more than 3 days is starting to lose any aroma and finer hop flavours as it oxidises, which is where blandness creeps in. I do agree that a pub needs to offer at least one every day (national or regional brewer) style beer, not everyone is up for experimentation!
To sum up my feelings, get a feel for what the micro is like in terms of quality, bear in mind the quality of the pub and weigh it up. I avoid some breweries as I know they are not to my liking, but I will always go back to them at some point to check my opinion is still sound.

The 3 days for an ale is a myth. Safe then sorry being the thought. But over winter I've had to hard peg an ale to keep it well and was happy to drink a 10-day old ale when we were shut. Different beers react differently to contact with the air, but by knowing what your doing and really looking after your beers, they can last longer than three days. The irony of this is, the better you keep your beer, the quicker they sell.

I'd also rather see a bar with 6 handpumps sell only 2 ales and have 4 off, as it shows the landlord is not willing to compromise quality for choice. As for choice of styles, a good pub will always have different styles. A poor pub won't pay that much attention to what the guest ales are - as long as they're differently named

[Oggwyn Trench]

It as already been said that the choice of real ale on offer is the sign of a healthy market for the product , it was not that long ago when we would bypass a dozen pubs to get to the one with its solitary handpump selling Tetley , Bass or similar. I am pretty lucky my locals have a couple of permant ales on, for those who dont want to experiment with the 6/8 guests (theres always a Mild and Stout on for variety)
I do like the Golden ales but a nice Amber beer is always a nice change as is a mild or stout .

Not all bad brewers are found out , i know one who is now working at his fifth brewery(1 closed by Greenhalls , 3 went bust) in 25 years of trying his beers i have had only had one that was any good

[PaulOfHorsham]

Another point I'll throw in is that you may find yourself enjoying an ale you've not seen before. Trouble is, once you leave the pub, you may never see it again! It's just another special. Can't help thinking that some of the micros still regard their 'business' as little more than a hobby for their own amusement.

[Wittenden]

An interesting thread, with many useful points. I don't often go to a multi hand pump permanent beer fest type pub-they don't seem to be particularily frequent in this part of Kent, and if I do, I tend to worry about through put and stale beer! Related to this, I also wonder how long some more geographically exotic ales have been in the tender mercies of the wholesaler.
It is wonderful to see so many new breweries-this puts the 88 independants listed in Frank Baillie's Beer Drinker's Companion into perspective, but I think we have to accept that a fair proprtion are the products of hope rather than experience, and with all the good will in the world, are unlikely to progress from paying? hobby to sustainable and sucessful business.
I'm always ready to try a new beer from a new brewery, but as A&H said, too many are too similar.I can see the temptation for an enthusiastic brewer to want to produce a wide portfolio, but sometimes its good to concentrate on a limited but excellent range.A local example that springs to mind is Goachers of Tovil. They've been around for several years now, but their range is narrow-a mild, a fine light, a best dark, and a cuople of strong'uns, which unfortunately I've never seen. Of the beers I've tried recently, they've all been spot on.
Given the choice, on beer terms, between the Rake and the Market Porter, I'd go for the Rake, though I do have issues with the uber trendy clientel!

[Andy Ven]

I would rather see a small/medium local brewer offer 2 or 3 ales that they are good at than either a national brewer offering something brewed for the mass market or a smaller entity trying too hard by offering too many below average ales. I'm with Soup in that I would rather go for the tried and trusted Bathams, Sarah Hughes, Old Swan, Black Country, Hobsons's, HIGHGATE etc. for that reason

I've been in the Windsor Castle in Lye several times this year (strangely not in the GBG 2011) and I can never work out what's what (probably because I could never get near to the handpulls for bar hoggers) so I ended up being slightly underwhelmed with what I ended up with.

....and another thing. The Wellington in Birmingham at least gives you an idea of what you're ordering by displaying the name, ABV and colour (A - E, albeit a little bit subjectively) of both its regular and ever-changing ales on the board, something I find very useful - I wish other pubs, including JDW, would do the same because the bar staff often don't have a clue

[Rex_Rattus]

I feel I ought to participate in this thread because it's about an issue so close to my heart, but most points have pretty much been made, and we all largely seem to be agreeing.

I don't think it matters that there are lots of micro-breweries producing much the same sort of product. It's inevitable that many ales will be very similar to each other, perhaps with only very subtle differences. But if the product's good then that's the most important thing, and if it's not (i.e. producing bland ale), as others have said, they will soon get found out.

And again, as others have said, it's up to the landlord, or his/her hierarchy, to give the customers the choice they want. But it's horses for courses. There are many pubs I know where with the best will in the world all their customer base will allow them to sell is just enough ale for them to have one on handpump. In that case, in this part of the world anyway, they generally go for London Pride, because it's seen as a tried and trusted ale, and you really can't blame them for that. But where a pub has the custom to sustain half a dozen ales then they really should give customers decent choice. I've been in my local 'Spoons where they've had five or six ales on and all have been stouts and porters. Nothing wrong with stouts and porters, it's just that I don't care for them and that's my choice. Another pub I went in had six light hoppy summer ales on. All I'm saying is that where an establishment has the ability and wherewithall to offer a choice, they really should make the effort to do so.

[Eddie86]

I feel I ought to participate in this thread because it's about an issue so close to my heart, but most points have pretty much been made, and we all largely seem to be agreeing.

I don't think it matters that there are lots of micro-breweries producing much the same sort of product. It's inevitable that many ales will be very similar to each other, perhaps with only very subtle differences. But if the product's good then that's the most important thing, and if it's not (i.e. producing bland ale), as others have said, they will soon get found out.

And again, as others have said, it's up to the landlord, or his/her hierarchy, to give the customers the choice they want. But it's horses for courses. There are many pubs I know where with the best will in the world all their customer base will allow them to sell is just enough ale for them to have one on handpump. In that case, in this part of the world anyway, they generally go for London Pride, because it's seen as a tried and trusted ale, and you really can't blame them for that. But where a pub has the custom to sustain half a dozen ales then they really should give customers decent choice. I've been in my local 'Spoons where they've had five or six ales on and all have been stouts and porters. Nothing wrong with stouts and porters, it's just that I don't care for them and that's my choice. Another pub I went in had six light hoppy summer ales on. All I'm saying is that where an establishment has the ability and wherewithall to offer a choice, they really should make the effort to do so.

/\/\/\/\ What he said! /\/\/\/\

[aleandhearty]

At the moment it is quite exciting to see new beers and breweries cropping up in my area but I can understand the downside of it as well.

I'm well aware that I wrote the article from a position of luxury and feel quite guilty that drinkers in some parts of the country would cry out for the number of breweries we have.


Another thing, as others have already said, is an unbalanced bar, I don't really want to see 6-8 handpumps all selling golden ales at between 3.8 and 4.5%, I want a bit of choice, there are times when I just long for a boring brown bitter to break the monotony.

As we both well know 'ob', golden ales are almost becoming the default style of the northern brewers and it least partly explains why I've drunk more dark beer this year than any other.


Some publicans need to spend more time on selecting both well brewed ales as well as providing a range of beer styles.


But where a pub has the custom to sustain half a dozen ales then they really should give customers decent choice...where an establishment has the ability and wherewithall to offer a choice, they really should make the effort to do so.

This is absolutely key I think.

[arwkrite]

A word from the Philistine.

A very interesting thread displaying the amazing breadth of knowledge about beer and brewing held by our forum members. I cannot think of anything ground breaking to add without showing my enormous ignorance of the subject.

I walk into a pub and quick scan the pumps. The bigger breweries I know but most micro's are unknown to me. My choice would mostly be pot luck unless I made quick contact with a fellow drinker at the bar who made a recommendation.I know longer find it surprising how often a glance and a question can get you a decent pint and and interesting period of conversation.
The name of the beer/ brewer is soon forgotten because I rarely find theirs brews again. So like a butterfly I flit from pump to pump in search of nectar in no orderly fashion. I think the name for the likes of me is a p**shead but I am happy in my own little way.:notworthy::cheers:

[Farway]

A word from the Philistine.

A very interesting thread displaying the amazing breadth of knowledge about beer and brewing held by our forum members. I cannot think of anything ground breaking to add without showing my enormous ignorance of the subject.

I walk into a pub and quick scan the pumps. The bigger breweries I know but most micro's are unknown to me. My choice would mostly be pot luck unless I made quick contact with a fellow drinker at the bar who made a recommendation.I know longer find it surprising how often a glance and a question can get you a decent pint and and interesting period of conversation.
The name of the beer/ brewer is soon forgotten because I rarely find theirs brews again. So like a butterfly I flit from pump to pump in search of nectar in no orderly fashion. I think the name for the likes of me is a p**shead but I am happy in my own little way.:notworthy::cheers:

Wot 'e said