Where Has All The Ale Gone?

[Tris39]

Is it just London, or are other areas seeing a big drop in ale choice, that's if real ale hasn't recently been withdrawn altogether.

[Mobyduck]

Is it just London, or are other areas seeing a big drop in ale choice, that's if real ale hasn't recently been withdrawn altogether.

A short trip around Hanwell yesterday found this...
The Kings Arms (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/24839/)
Two handpumps, no ale on.
The Fox (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/24838/)
Eight handpumps , five ales on.
The Green W7, (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/24837/)
Five Handpumps one ale on
The Dodo Micropub (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/84957/)
No Handpumps but five ales on.

[sheffield hatter]

When pubs first reopened I was mostly visiting Sheffield pubs, many of which are associated with or owned by a brewery: Sheffield Tap/Tapped Brewery; Fat Cat/Kelham Island Brewery; Raven Inn/Loxley Brewery; Kelham Island Tavern/Blue Bee Brewery; Blake Hotel & Wellington/Neepsend Brewery. These pubs were mostly selling just their own beers, with maybe one or at the most two guests.

Partly this is because they could keep control of the supply chain, which was important when business depended on the weather (between 12 April and 17 May) and how their customer base would respond to the relaxation/weakening (depending on your point of view) of the Covid-19 restrictions. Also for the owners it would mean that their breweries were making money as well as their pubs! From conversations I had with some of the managers/licensees, they were wary of putting on two many beers and having to throw them away when they either couldn't sell them through lack of custom or restrictions were reimposed (which didn't happen, of course, but it could have). An exception to this was the Stancill Brewery's Closed Shop, where they had a full range of their beers on in April; I tried three - one had a brewing fault and the other two were dull. (I've not been back.)

More recently, the Sheffield Tap has had a greater selection of beers, and I think last time I was there they had a beer on every pump (except for the cider!) and only three out of nine were their own beers; this may be the case at the Kelham Island Tavern, but I've not been there recently (also they were closed because of Covid among the staff). The two Neepsend pubs have had fewer guest beers on than they did before March 2020, and there's usually one hand pump unused in each pub. The Fat Cat was celebrating its 40th Anniversary this weekend, and had a mini beer festival. There were (I think) 10 beers on the counter in the pub, and there was another bar in the beer garden (in the small building where the original brew kit was situated) which I didn't check out. Once those have run off, I expect they'll be back to five or six, as before, and mostly their own.

In Leeds, where I go for the rugby league, I've been going in the Cardigan Arms and the Scarbrough Hotel. The latter is a Nicholsons pub, and they've had three or four beers on mostly, whereas before I think they'd have had five or six. I noticed last Thursday that the Tetleys was doubled up, which I can't remember seeing before. The Cardigan is owned by Kirkstall Brewery and is selling almost exclusively their own beer - but I can't remember seeing many guests there before (a couple of Hawkshead beers one time - but maybe that was a swap). Last week they had one guest keg beer: that was it, all the rest their own.

Another Sheffield pub: the Queens Ground (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/43320/). Lovely pub, used to have four hand pumps on, built up from nothing only seven or eight years ago when I reviewed it. In May when they reopened they had two beers on - because, as the licensee told me, he didn't know how the trade would be and until football restarted he didn't think he'd be busy enough. Sure enough, first Owls home game I was back there and there were three beers on the bar with one just run off.

So to answer your question, Tris: I think some of the breweries that don't either own pubs or have a distribution agreement with a pubco or wholesaler may have been struggling for orders. And pubs that have been able to tap into a steady supply from major breweries may have decided that they don't need to bother about some of the smaller breweries any more.

Another thing that may be coming into play is that it's been noticeable that beer quality has been more reliable. I think I've only had one or two beers since 12 April that were stale or slightly off, and maybe four or five that had brewing faults (plus the three mentioned at the Closed Shop). That's less than a dozen poor beers out of 185 pub visits and just over 300 pints. Other than that it's been perfection, perfection, perfection. So maybe the penny has dropped: fewer beers means better quality means happy customers drinking more beer means less wastage means more profit.

And maybe those drinkers for whom variety and innovation are the thing should remember Camra's Revitalisation slogan: "Hey, some of this keg beer is actually pretty good, isn't it!"*




*(c) Sheffield Hatter. (Just kidding, guys. Please don't sue me.)


Sorry, that was a lot longer than I expected. As the actress said to the bishop. I'll get me hat.

[ROBCamra]

No problems around The Dale, all the ale houses have their normal number of ales on the bar.

However when I deal with Brewers Wholesale I now have a choice of 50 - 65 beers not the 100 - 120 I had before Covid. :mad:

[rpadam]

For those registered with Camra's Discourse forum, there is a self-explanatory thread entitled Catastrophe for real ale - Central London post-lockdown (https://discourse.camra.org.uk/t/catastrophe-for-real-ale-central-london-post-lockdown/17220) which has (as usual) drifted off topic, but this certainly appears to be a particular problem in the capital.

[sheffield hatter]

For those registered with Camra's Discourse forum, there is a self-explanatory thread entitled Catastrophe for real ale - Central London post-lockdown (https://discourse.camra.org.uk/t/catastrophe-for-real-ale-central-london-post-lockdown/17220) which has (as usual) drifted off topic, but this certainly appears to be a particular problem in the capital.

Thanks for linking to the thread - I really mean that. I noticed that a few posters came to a similar conclusion to mine (above) about the gradual reintroduction of real ales and the consequent emphasis on quality rather than choice.

What a surprise to see denigration of keg beer and the whole revitalisation argument gone over yet again in a thread with the title Catastrophe for real ale - Central London post-lockdown. I suppose moderating such a thread would be a full time job, but they did at least siphon off a putative discussion about the allocation of (yawn!) membership numbers.

[Pangolin]

Out in more leafy parts where more people are working from home things do not seem quite as bad. Initially there was a surfeit of Doom Bar only pubs but that seems to have eased with some decent beers in most pubs, although I suspect overall volumes are still down so a pub with 3 ales may only have 2 on etc. Having said that there is still the general lack of HGV drivers apparently hitting distribution and industrial unrest at GXO Logistics who claim to ship up to 40% of UK beer from Heineken and others, so deliveries might be a problem.

[Bucking Fastard]

My view is that this is a London issue and COVID has accelerated a trend that was already evident beforehand..............much less real ale availability in general in the capital..

Maybe not surprising given the advantages that keg holds

Higher price point
Longer shelf life
Less cellaring skill needed to produce a consistent,good product.
Easier for inexperienced bar staff to dispence.
Hand pump image of old man's drink among younger drinkers.

The sight of 5 handpumps but just a single clipped with Doom Bar or London Pride does also drive drinkers (and I am as guilty as anybody) into the keg options for something interesting which will only compound the lack of demand for real ale.A lot of publicans also view real ale as having to be low ABV to appeal to what they think the older drinker wants,further reducing choice.

This reduction in real ale options is also impacting some former shining beacons on the London real ale scene,with the Euston Tap and Cask Pimlico both light on recent trips.

However the search will go on for London pubs serving excellent real ale.That task is becoming more tricky.

[sheffield hatter]

...this may be the case at the Kelham Island Tavern (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/56068/), but I've not been there recently (also they were closed because of Covid among the staff).

Slightly off-topic, but I was there tonight and everyone is healthy and back at work, so the pub is open again.

There were 10 beers on 12 hand pumps, which I thought was pushing it a bit on a quiet Monday, but the Pictish Brewers Gold and Blue Bee Five Hop Pale (http://www.bluebeebrewery.co.uk/) (Amarillo, Columbus, Centennial, Cascade and Mosaic, since you ask) were both superb, and I had two pints of the latter as well as the initial halves of each. If it had said Amarillo, Columbus, Centennial, Cascade and Mosaic on the pump clip I might well have gone for something else, but I trusted the brewer. This was the bitterest finish of any beer I can recall from recent years, but beautifully balanced. It's so refreshing (in more than one sense) to find American hops used in this way, rather than to replicate the flavours of tropical fruits. Hope you can find some where you're drinking.

[Mobyduck]

Slightly off-topic, but I was there tonight and everyone is healthy and back at work, so the pub is open again.

There were 10 beers on 12 hand pumps, which I thought was pushing it a bit on a quiet Monday, but the Pictish Brewers Gold and Blue Bee Five Hop Pale (http://www.bluebeebrewery.co.uk/) (Amarillo, Columbus, Centennial, Cascade and Mosaic, since you ask) were both superb, and I had two pints of the latter as well as the initial halves of each. If it had said Amarillo, Columbus, Centennial, Cascade and Mosaic on the pump clip I might well have gone for something else, but I trusted the brewer. This was the bitterest finish of any beer I can recall from recent years, but beautifully balanced. It's so refreshing (in more than one sense) to find American hops used in this way, rather than to replicate the flavours of tropical fruits. Hope you can find some where you're drinking.
Continuing the slightly off topic theme.
A lot is made of too many beers lead to poor quality by certain factions of the real ale drinking community (and I don't mean you Will), which in many cases can be true, but certain "elite" (for want of a better word) seem to manage this with ease so not a problem in my book. I've not been to the KIT before but will remedy this next month, but nearer my neck of the woods Thje Nags Head in Reading on Quinnos manor manage 12 beers with no apparent problem and many other pubs manage it so to me it's not so much the number of beers but the competence of the keeper.

[Brainypool]

Mixed bag around here. My local hasn’t served a drop of real ale since March 2020 whereas it previously always served 1 or 2, but it has always been a predominantly lager drinkers pub anyway. Another pub up the road has seen a considerable change in its clientele towards those who prefer gin, cocktails and Eurofizz. The older regulars simply haven’t returned.

The more reliable ale pubs, however, are still reliable from what I have seen. And I have been impressed by the resurgence of real ale in the last few weeks on visits to Newcastle and Liverpool. As Bucking Fastard suggests, perhaps this is a specific London issue.

[Wittenden]

Slightly off-topic, but I was there tonight and everyone is healthy and back at work, so the pub is open again.

Blue Bee Five Hop Pale (http://www.bluebeebrewery.co.uk/) (Amarillo, Columbus, Centennial, Cascade and Mosaic, since you ask) If it had said Amarillo, Columbus, Centennial, Cascade and Mosaic on the pump clip I might well have gone for something else, but I trusted the brewer. This was the bitterest finish of any beer I can recall from recent years, but beautifully balanced. It's so refreshing (in more than one sense) to find American hops used in this way, rather than to replicate the flavours of tropical fruits. Hope you can find some where you're drinking.

Sounds like my kind of beer.

[RealAleRobUK]

I have found that several Wetherspoon pubs seem to be struggling for guest ale. If you look on the app, pubs that used to sometimes do 5 or 6 guest ales are often showing just one, sometimes even none at all. At first some even seemed to be showing Doom Bar, Abbot etc as listed but out of stock. Not sure if this is a Wetherspoon specific issue - perhaps they are unable to source the same quantities they used to at what I imagine was a low price point - or whether they just scaled back when pubs were operating at reduced capacity and never bothered to build the availability back up again.

Similar deal with Nicholsons pubs - they usually have two or three interesting guests on, but these seem to now be reduced to a couple of boring nationals and Nicholsons Pale Ale.

I was out in Manchester at the weekend and frequented a few 'real ale' type pubs, and I'm pleased to report I was not confronted by a sea of barren pumps in those pubs.

Initially, after Lockdown 1.0, I was of the assumption there were supply issues as many breweries had wound down their brewing activities or diverted resources into producing cans and bottles for retail sale. But there has been sufficient time for production to ramp back up since then, even with the various flavours of lockdown we have had on and off since, so perhaps there isn't much in that theory of mine.

[Tris39]

And maybe those drinkers for whom variety and innovation are the thing should remember Camra's Revitalisation slogan: "Hey, some of this keg beer is actually pretty good, isn't it!"

Yes. I have a hunch that this endorsement does little to help. Perhaps they should rename to CAMKA.


My view is that this is a London issue and COVID has accelerated a trend that was already evident beforehand..............much less real ale availability in general in the capital..

Maybe not surprising given the advantages that keg holds

Higher price point
Longer shelf life
Less cellaring skill needed to produce a consistent,good product.
Easier for inexperienced bar staff to dispence.
Hand pump image of old man's drink among younger drinkers.

This reduction in real ale options is also impacting some former shining beacons on the London real ale scene,with the Euston Tap and Cask Pimlico both light on recent trips.

Yes. I had considered most of the above.

The Prince Arthur (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/71811/) - a pump being used on the homepage, but all four pumps off on arrival. A Five Points keg at £5.70.
The Jolly Butchers (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/25627/) - seven pumps down to five with one ale but now ticking over at three.
The Cock Tavern (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/25052/) - 17 pumps with five delivering cider but just three ales, separated by nine nice shiny brass pump handles; a supposedly 'real ale Mecca'?
The Pembury Tavern (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/25070/) - no supply problems here as it's the brewery tap, so no surprises that all six pumps were in operation during my first lockdown visit. But a recent return with restrictions lifted and the three guest pumps are off and the remaining three have two of theirs and one guest - they can't even fill just three pumps with their own produce??? This observation was also made last night too.

The Kilburn Arms (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/23812/) - a pub in an area which isn't inner-city but equally isn't gentrified, fashionable let alone rich, but my Neck Oil was £6.40, so I suspect that keg is being peddled at a very high price due to all your observations above, but I think that keg may deliver a higher profit margin, especially if these Muppets charge a sum which ensures no return visit; with just five other customers, I don't see how it can survive. Mc Glynn's Bar (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/68752/) over the road was doing a fine trade at the same time, but definitely isn't my thing and I doubt they do ale, but they have no problem pulling in the punters.

[sheffield hatter]

Continuing the slightly off topic theme.
A lot is made of too many beers lead to poor quality by certain factions of the real ale drinking community (and I don't mean you Will), which in many cases can be true, but certain "elite" (for want of a better word) seem to manage this with ease so not a problem in my book. I've not been to the KIT before but will remedy this next month, but nearer my neck of the woods The Nags Head in Reading on Quinnos manor manage 12 beers with no apparent problem and many other pubs manage it so to me it's not so much the number of beers but the competence of the keeper.

I think the problem probably stems from a pub trying to break into that sort of market too quickly. If you look at the KIT and the Fat Cat, just around the corner from each other, you might assume somewhat naively, that having 12 beers on is the way to get rich. Wrong! You have to establish a reputation for good beer well kept, and keep it ticking over. You have to be meticulous. You have to be prepared to throw beer away, and you have to be prepared to think again and just have six beers on, or just four, or just two! You're right about the competence of the keeper, but that isn't learned overnight. Can you imagine how much work is involved in keeping 12 beers ticking over with never a loss of quality? I can't.

[Mobyduck]

I think the problem probably stems from a pub trying to break into that sort of market too quickly. If you look at the KIT and the Fat Cat, just around the corner from each other, you might assume somewhat naively, that having 12 beers on is the way to get rich. Wrong! You have to establish a reputation for good beer well kept, and keep it ticking over. You have to be meticulous. You have to be prepared to throw beer away, and you have to be prepared to think again and just have six beers on, or just four, or just two! You're right about the competence of the keeper, but that isn't learned overnight. Can you imagine how much work is involved in keeping 12 beers ticking over with never a loss of quality? I can't.

Spot on.

[Quinno]

Continuing the slightly off topic theme.
The Nags Head in Reading on Quinnos manor manage 12 beers with no apparent problem and many other pubs manage it so to me it's not so much the number of beers but the competence of the keeper.

The quality has suffered, IMHO. The cask breathers are out I think - had a few cardboardy ones lately. The kids are drinking keg.

The Allied in town has reduced its range severely but has been knocking out its best beer in years recently.

Folks, cask (in the South) was bloated and far too prominent before lockdown - too many on not shifting. There is (and will continue to be) a long-overdue market retraction in cask offering south of Brum.

I did all bar one of the Norwich GBG pubs the other week and quality was crap (honorable exceptions).

We need consistent quality cask so people keep drinking it. I said before lockdown that 1/4 of cask could disappear from the pumps the following day and it'd be no bad thing. I stand by that!

[Mobyduck]

1/4 of cask could disappear from the pumps the following day and it'd be no bad thing. I stand by that!
Happy for Doom Bar and GK IPA to go. :D
The problem is lack of interest , from punters (not enough getting out and about) and providers (keg/ craft an easier fix). Had excellent quality over the last couple of weeks in The Harp, Royal Oak (Borough) and The Dodo Micropub in London and my regular haunt The Alfred (see BOTW) a small locals community pub that turns over six ales at a time all the time and I can honestly say I've never had a poor pint in seven years of drinking there. The connection? All are well attended pubs and all have an enthusiasum for their product. Lethargy is the problem where it's going wrong.

[Bucking Fastard]

Happy for Doom Bar and GK IPA to go. :D
The problem is lack of interest

Me too,but I would hazard a guess that these two along with London Pride are the largest available cask real ales in London.The takeover of Spirit Pubco,lots of central London outlets, by Greene King a few years ago didn't help. It's no wonder that punters,especially the young, are moving away from real ale.

[Tris39]

Happy for Doom Bar and GK IPA to go. :D

And Fuller's London Shame, which is available at every Remarkable Pubs Co branch.


Me too,but I would hazard a guess that these two along with London Pride are the largest available cask real ales in London.

Sadly I think you are right, with London Sh*te seeming to have ousted Gloom Bore. Had some lovely pints of Three Sods Old Normal at the Cock Tavern over the last few days, but then you wouldn't expect to see the above served there, thank God.

[Gann]

Pretty dismal experience at the Nicholson’s owned The Magpie (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/23430/) in Liverpool Street last night.
Of the ten hand pumps only one in operation with London Pride which then went off midway through the second round leaving no ale in the house. The barman was bemoaning delivery supply issues, but this is not an uncommon experience in the London Nicholson outlets since opening up. Fortunately there are plenty of other good boozers in this part of town, so a prompt move on was had.

[Brainypool]

Pretty dismal experience at the Nicholson’s owned The Magpie (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/23430/) in Liverpool Street last night.
Of the ten hand pumps only one in operation with London Pride which then went off midway through the second round leaving no ale in the house. The barman was bemoaning delivery supply issues, but this is not an uncommon experience in the London Nicholson outlets since opening up. Fortunately there are plenty of other good boozers in this part of town, so a prompt move on was had.

Very poor in the Nicholson’s Philharmonic in Liverpool the other week too.

[Mobyduck]

Pretty dismal experience at the Nicholson’s owned The Magpie (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/23430/) in Liverpool Street last night.
Of the ten hand pumps only one in operation with London Pride which then went off midway through the second round leaving no ale in the house. The barman was bemoaning delivery supply issues, but this is not an uncommon experience in the London Nicholson outlets since opening up. Fortunately there are plenty of other good boozers in this part of town, so a prompt move on was had.

The Falcoln (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/24449/) was dismal about a three weeks ago, just Pride , Doom Bar and Nicholsons Pale (which is now a different beer than it used to be), I didn't bother.

[Dave M]

I have found that several Wetherspoon pubs seem to be struggling for guest ale. If you look on the app, pubs that used to sometimes do 5 or 6 guest ales are often showing just one, sometimes even none at all. At first some even seemed to be showing Doom Bar, Abbot etc as listed but out of stock. Not sure if this is a Wetherspoon specific issue - perhaps they are unable to source the same quantities they used to at what I imagine was a low price point - or whether they just scaled back when pubs were operating at reduced capacity and never bothered to build the availability back up again.

I've been digging around in the real ale data from the spoons app and have checked back to see what stock levels have been like. So this is a list of how many ales were available at the 869 branches at 4pm on each Saturday.
10/07 4234
17/07 4223
24/07 4502
31/07 4455
07/08 4506
14/08 4510
21/08 4591

So maybe it is picking up a bit?

Right now there are 4600 ales on, 46 branches have no guest ales.

[Spinko]

I've been digging around in the real ale data from the spoons app and have checked back to see what stock levels have been like. So this is a list of how many ales were available at the 869 branches at 4pm on each Saturday.
10/07 4234
17/07 4223
24/07 4502
31/07 4455
07/08 4506
14/08 4510
21/08 4591

So maybe it is picking up a bit?

Right now there are 4600 ales on, 46 branches have no guest ales.

That coincides a bit with football and holiday seasons kicking off

Liverpool really shouldn't have a problem with distribution as it is hardly remote. I wonder how some of Cornwall is getting on. Rumours that the petrol may run out there this weekend as everyone refills for the drive home (you heard it here first...)

[Tris39]

The quality has suffered, IMHO.

Not suffered as much as this customer at The Royal Sovereign (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/25024/) a couple of nights ago.


Pretty dismal experience at the Nicholson’s owned The Magpie (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/23430/) in Liverpool Street last night.

I'm amazed there's any trade in the City right now.


The Falcoln (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/24449/)...

I suppose they're trading on their interior, on my to-do list none the less.

A return visit to The Jolly Butchers (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/25627/) two nights ago and the seven pumps which had become five, with three ales on, is now in fact just one ale and two flavours of Seacider and a very large selection of 'craft' keg.

[sheffield hatter]

And Fuller's London Shame, which is available at every Remarkable Pubs Co branch.

Sadly I think you are right, with London Sh*te seeming to have ousted Gloom Bore. Had some lovely pints of Three Sods Old Normal at the Cock Tavern over the last few days, but then you wouldn't expect to see the above served there, thank God.

Are you channelling Aqualung, by any chance?

I understand that some beers that are widely advertised and promoted as national brands are often disappointing, but (in my opinion) this is not always the fault of the brewery, more the lack of expertise in the licensees who just put it on the bar and expect it to sell. When London Pride is in good condition, as I found it at the Dove in Hammersmith about two years ago, it is still a superb beer.

Calling it silly names and - by extension - denigrating also the people who find it acceptable and enjoyable, isn't doing anyone any favours.

[Mobyduck]

Calling it silly names

Three Sods Old Normal is actually its name! :whistle:

[rpadam]

And Fuller's London Shame, which is available at every Remarkable Pubs Co branch.

Sadly I think you are right, with London Sh*te seeming to have ousted Gloom Bore.
I don't really understand this - London Pride, kept well (which I'll readily admit is not always the case) and served properly (ditto), is still a good beer.

[Bucking Fastard]

The Falcoln (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/24449/) was dismal about a three weeks ago, just Pride , Doom Bar and Nicholsons Pale (which is now a different beer than it used to be), I didn't bother.

I popped in last Saturday after the match,the visit was saved by St Austell Proper Job.The other three you mention were also on,they must be permanent.Interior still good,and maybe I was fortunate on the ale front.

[Mobyduck]

I popped in last Saturday after the match,the visit was saved by St Austell Proper Job.The other three you mention were also on,they must be permanent.Interior still good,and maybe I was fortunate on the ale front.

Was the Proper Job well kept?

[Bucking Fastard]

Was the Proper Job well kept?

Yes it seemed fine but I only stayed for a pint and a half.

[Tris39]

When London Pride is in good condition, as I found it at the Dove in Hammersmith about two years ago, it is still a superb beer.

Calling it silly names and - by extension - denigrating also the people who find it acceptable and enjoyable, isn't doing anyone any favours.

Lucky Pride was on at the Dove as none to be found on my trip.

Many people use tongue-in-cheek terms for beers and nothing serious is meant by it, certainly on my part at least.;)

[Tris39]

Was the Proper Job well kept?

Had some great pints of Prober Job in the King's Arms in Oxford yesterday with no restrictions and both Young's staples on along with Tribute. My crawl was largely curtailed by early closings.

A sorry trip to Jericho's Gardeners the day before revealed full protocols in place, with a rope over the door to prevent entry without full compliance and sadly, just two pints on when typically there are reliably four though both very nice. And now - for how long, I know not - they have imposed a seven-day 10.30 closing; they used to have midnight openings at least six days a week.

[sheffield hatter]

Many people use tongue-in-cheek terms for beers and nothing serious is meant by it, certainly on my part at least.;)

Well, I didn't know that and I'm sure plenty of the casual visitors to this site who read "London Shame", "London Sh*te" and "Gloom Bore" (post 20 on this thread (http://forums.pubsgalore.co.uk/showthread.php?35379-Where-Has-All-The-Ale-Gone/page2)) didn't know it either. We're all entitled to our opinions and everyone is a little silly from time to time, but when posting on a public forum, giving a little consideration for other people and for the reputation of the site would only take a few seconds before hitting that "post quick reply" button.

[ETA]

Lucky Pride was on at the Dove as none to be found on my trip.

Many people use tongue-in-cheek terms for beers and nothing serious is meant by it, certainly on my part at least.;)

I have no problem with the beer, I just object to Fuller's previous business practices.

[NickDavies]

I have no problem with the beer, I just object to Fuller's previous business practices.

Fullers don't brew beer any more.

[Dave M]

So this is a list of how many ales were available at the 869 branches at 4pm on each Saturday.

Thought I'd add another data point to the list and I found a backup of the just before Covid data for comparison.

Pre-Covid 07/03/20 4935

10/07 4234
17/07 4223
24/07 4502
31/07 4455
07/08 4506
14/08 4510
21/08 4591
28/08 4684

[sheffield hatter]

Thought I'd add another data point to the list and I found a backup of the just before Covid data for comparison.

Pre-Covid 07/03/20 4935

10/07 4234
17/07 4223
24/07 4502
31/07 4455
07/08 4506
14/08 4510
21/08 4591
28/08 4684

Weren't there more Wetherspoons pubs before the first lockdown? I thought some had been closed, which might account for (some of) the drop from 4935 to 4234.

[london calling]

Is it just London, or are other areas seeing a big drop in ale choice, that's if real ale hasn't recently been withdrawn altogether.
Definite poor range in Central London with fewer pumps in use and lack of variety.As a beer ticker I had noticed the range of beers well before the pandemic was in decline.I think the pubs realised that the cheaper brands were just not selling and seemed to be sticking with the tried and trusted sellers.Five Points brewer and Tiny Rebel seems to be on everywhere.Locally its back to usual in the better beer pub.

[hondo]

https://beertoday.co.uk/2021/10/04/cga-cask-ale/

[Bucking Fastard]

https://beertoday.co.uk/2021/10/04/cga-cask-ale/

That's a very good analysis of the current situation ,and I agree with the main points about where cask needs to go in future.

[sheffield hatter]

https://beertoday.co.uk/2021/10/04/cga-cask-ale/

Interesting point about pricing of cask ales.

"There is a perception that it should be lower on the pricing ladder than other categories, and the average price of a pint of cask is now £3.62 — 20p below the draught beer average. But lower price points can damage customers’ perceptions of quality, which is dangerous at a time when quality is growing in importance as a choice factor. Raising price points can drive up perceptions of quality, and they are justified by the level of care and attention that goes into brewing, conditioning, and serving*."



*I would add potential wastage as well

[london calling]

Interesting point about pricing of cask ales.

"There is a perception that it should be lower on the pricing ladder than other categories, and the average price of a pint of cask is now £3.62 — 20p below the draught beer average. But lower price points can damage customers’ perceptions of quality, which is dangerous at a time when quality is growing in importance as a choice factor. Raising price points can drive up perceptions of quality, and they are justified by the level of care and attention that goes into brewing, conditioning, and serving*."



*I would add potential wastage as well
The price of cask beer in London has been raised and i dont think it makes me feel like cask is a quality product.In fact it has closed the gap pricewise between cask and keg and in the last 2 months i have drank about 40%cask and 60% keg.

[sheffield hatter]

The price of cask beer in London has been raised and I dont think it makes me feel like cask is a quality product.

If I stop and think about it, I don't think the *price* makes me feel like cask is a quality product. What makes me feel that way is when the pub (i.e. the management and staff and the ethos of the whole place) behaves as though it is. A couple of examples:

At the Victoria, Paddington (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22408/) the person who served me spotted that my beer hadn't cleared as expected and went down to the cellar, noticed that the beer was lower in the barrel than they had thought, dashed back up and told me not to drink it! The manager meanwhile had also gone down to the cellar, poured me a glass straight from the barrel before starting to pull it through to the bar (presumably after cleaning the pipes!). This was the beer that some people refer to by a mangled version of its name, which is actually Fullers London Pride. On the way out of the pub, I noticed again the A-board which stands on the pavement near the entrance: "The freshest cask beers" it proudly proclaims, above a list of the beers available on tap. And now you know that it's true: a Fullers pub proud to sell beer in the best condition.

Another: At the Sheffield Tap they brew their own beers (Tapped Brewery) and when pubs reopened (outdoors) in April these were all that was available. By having control of the supply chain they were able to make sure that the beer was available when they needed it and to condition it so that it was in the best condition. As things opened up a little in May and finally in July, they introduced more beers. At first these were only their own as in April, but as trade improved (train travel was also increasing, which helped with throughput) they introduced a few guests. By this strategy they were able to ensure the best quality of the beer on the bar. Six months later they are now back to having the full row of hand pumps with (approximately) nine or ten guests and one or two from Tapped. This, it seems to me, is treating their wares with the seriousness of a premium product, making sure that only cask ale guaranteed to be in tip top condition is being served to their customers. (The 3.6% pale ale or bitter, Mojo, is now selling at £3.80 instead of £3.60, but I don't see this as a problem.)

[NickDavies]

Interesting point about pricing of cask ales.

"There is a perception that it should be lower on the pricing ladder than other categories, and the average price of a pint of cask is now £3.62 — 20p below the draught beer average. But lower price points can damage customers’ perceptions of quality, which is dangerous at a time when quality is growing in importance as a choice factor. Raising price points can drive up perceptions of quality, and they are justified by the level of care and attention that goes into brewing, conditioning, and serving."



About 30 years ago I was secretary of our work social club. We dealt with, amongst others, Charles Wells, who held the licence to brew Red Stripe lager, which was becoming trendy at the time. I remember chatting with the rep one day and he said some West End nightclub was complaining it wasn't selling, they'd tried discounting, happy hours, all of that, and were going to pull the account.

He suggested that they put their prices up in line with their super-premium beers and hey presto it was suddenly flying off the shelves.

[Tris39]

He suggested that they put their prices up in line with their super-premium beers and hey presto it was suddenly flying off the shelves.

This is quite an old trick - you put the price up and customers believe they're buying something superior. Remember the Jean de Florette-inspired ads from the 1980s for Stella Artois (https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=stlla+artois+reasuringly+expensive+youtub e&cvid=083393a7b9e64106948af1e08293ed5e&aqs=edge.0.69i59l2j69i57j69i59j69i60j69i61l2j69i65 j69i60.2657j0j1&pglt=43&PC=EDGEDB&ru=%2fsearch%3fq%3dstlla%2bartois%2breasuringly%2b expensive%2byoutube%26cvid%3d083393a7b9e64106948af 1e08293ed5e%26aqs%3dedge.0.69i59l2j69i57j69i59j69i 60j69i61l2j69i65j69i60.2657j0j1%26pglt%3d43%26FORM %3dANNTA1%26PC%3dEDGEDB&view=detail&mmscn=vwrc&mid=22C38529FE2C569C016422C38529FE2C569C0164&FORM=WRVORC)?

[Mobyduck]

(The 3.6% pale ale or bitter, Mojo, is now selling at £3.80 instead of £3.60, but I don't see this as a problem.)

£3.80 a pint is certainly not a problem in my neck of the woods.

[london calling]

Not convinced that cask beer is a quality product.Can be yes,but in general not in London as far as i can see.

[Tris39]

Not convinced that cask beer is a quality product.Can be yes,but in general not in London as far as i can see.

I think it can certainly be a quality product, but one which can be ruined by poor handling, which quite common here.

[Mobyduck]

I think it can certainly be a quality product, but one which can be ruined by poor handling, which quite common here.

Agreed, that sums up the general London scene at present.

[Tris39]

What I have noticed recently here, is that given the only ales available in 'mainstream' pubs is Doom, Pride, GK or - if you're lucky - Landlord, is the quality. It's never been so good, which I suppose just goes to show what happens if you reduce choice and increase throughflow. If only the choice were worth choosing...

[sheffield hatter]

Not convinced that cask beer is a quality product.Can be yes,but in general not in London as far as i can see.

After a recent trip to Putney I can now see where you're coming from, John. Lovely pubs, but the cask ales were, if not a second thought, certainly not a priority. I mean, if you don't take the trouble to find out how to make sure they are in top condition, they're obviously not a priority, right? Beers going on before they were ready, beers having no life left in them, beers that were called Youngs Ordinary, sorry Original. (Apologies that I hadn't previously understood what a serious abomination this beer is nowadays.)

And then I arrived at the Bricklayers Arms (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/24569/), where the beer was singing.