Definition of a pub

[oldboots]

From Pub Curmudgeon (http://curmudgeoncolumns.blogspot.com/):

"Strictly speaking, if anyone can come in and have a drink without needing to buy a meal, it doesn’t qualify as just being a restaurant. However, I’d say there also needs to be a test of whether any meaningful number of people actually do, and whether non-diners are made to feel welcome."

without opening old wounds, discuss.

[Tris39]

From Pub Curmudgeon (http://curmudgeoncolumns.blogspot.com/):

"Strictly speaking, if anyone can come in and have a drink without needing to buy a meal, it doesn’t qualify as just being a restaurant. However, I’d say there also needs to be a test of whether any meaningful number of people actually do, and whether non-diners are made to feel welcome."

without opening old wounds, discuss.

Good point. I'd be hard pressed to call https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/63473/ a pub, with just drinking at the bar. And I have no truck for pubs where you walk in and see a sea of 'reserved' signs on tables, whether the prospective customer is eating or not. Why should we chance our luck visiting a pub, only to be told that we'll have to give up our seats in 10 minutes? :moremad:

[Mobyduck]

We all will have an idea of what a proper pub is , unfortunately, or probably fortunately for the sake of diversity, we will have differing ideas.

[rpadam]

We all will have an idea of what a proper pub is , unfortunately, or probably fortunately for the sake of diversity, we will have differing ideas.
Well said!

[Delboy20]

I can hear the can of worms being opened !!

[Aqualung]

From Pub Curmudgeon (http://curmudgeoncolumns.blogspot.com/):

"Strictly speaking, if anyone can come in and have a drink without needing to buy a meal, it doesn’t qualify as just being a restaurant. However, I’d say there also needs to be a test of whether any meaningful number of people actually do, and whether non-diners are made to feel welcome."

without opening old wounds, discuss.

He seems to be trying to distinguish between a bar and a pub, not a straightforward task. I'd like to pick up on a couple of things. Most Wetherspoons are called pubs by the company itself. Some are much more pub like than others and not necessarily the ones based in former pubs. The only one I recall having an overwhelming feeling of being in a restaurant was this/ (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/19596/) one and that may have been a one off. I wouldn't call all micropubs bars. Some definitely are more bar like and some more like small pubs. The thing that annoys me about the "proper" pub argument is that it rarely seems to take into account the quality and condition of the beer or the price. These are the most important factors for me and also obtrusive TV screens have no place in a proper pub.

[NickDavies]

As I think I said last time we had this discussion, it can vary by day.

Q visited this pub (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/37049/) a day or two before me and loved it. I walked away from a restaurant unrefreshed.

[RealAleRobUK]

I do find it interesting how the pub scene have changed over the years. The terms "gastro pub" and "micro pub" were unheard of 15 years ago (unless I lived under a rock at the time). Yes, of course many pubs did food, but the fancy dining experience offered by some pubs now used to be confined to restaurants.

People's habits have changed too, and pubs have had to evolve to keep going. How many people now go to the pub to get pissed on their lunch break compared to the 80s? Many young people these days don't drink at all so never go into a pub except for a meal. The traditional wet led pub is becoming less common because in many cases that business model is not sustainable. It's a case of having to adapt or die, even if that is not always popular with people who want a "proper pub".

We all have our own take on what makes a good pub too. For me and I suspect many people on here the availability of decent real ale is a big factor. Some people seem to hate Wetherspoon pubs, some love them, others are indifferent. But you can't argue that they are hugely popular and often the busiest pub in the area.

[Tris39]

I do find it interesting how the pub scene have changed over the years. The terms "gastro pub" and "micro pub" were unheard of 15 years ago (unless I lived under a rock at the time). Yes, of course many pubs did food, but the fancy dining experience offered by some pubs now used to be confined to restaurants.

People's habits have changed too, and pubs have had to evolve to keep going. How many people now go to the pub to get pissed on their lunch break compared to the 80s? Many young people these days don't drink at all so never go into a pub except for a meal. The traditional wet led pub is becoming less common because in many cases that business model is not sustainable. It's a case of having to adapt or die, even if that is not always popular with people who want a "proper pub".

We all have our own take on what makes a good pub too. For me and I suspect many people on here the availability of decent real ale is a big factor. Some people seem to hate Wetherspoon pubs, some love them, others are indifferent. But you can't argue that they are hugely popular and often the busiest pub in the area.

The Orange (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22980/) used to be a great boozer when as the Orange Brewery I last went there 20 years ago. When I first visited 31 years ago, it had its own on-site brewery where I first sampled porter, brewed in the cellar. The pub's website shows an altogether unrecognisable transformation.
An article I posted some weeks ago from the Financial Times pointed out that traditional pubs shudder when a 'spoons opens nearby, which is why I always prefer to spend my cash in a traditional pub, ideally family-owned, to help keep them in business. It's an expensive act of 'charity' though...

[Aqualung]

The Orange (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22980/) used to be a great boozer when as the Orange Brewery I last went there 20 years ago. When I first visited 31 years ago, it had its own on-site brewery where I first sampled porter, brewed in the cellar. The pub's website shows an altogether unrecognisable transformation.
An article I posted some weeks ago from the Financial Times pointed out that traditional pubs shudder when a 'spoons opens nearby, which is why I always prefer to spend my cash in a traditional pub, ideally family-owned, to help keep them in business. It's an expensive act of 'charity' though...

I remember it too. The brewer when I visited was John Gilbert who went West to form the Hop Back brewery at the Wyndham Arms. I've been told that GFB represents Gilbert's First Brew.

[Mobyduck]

I've been told that GFB represents Gilbert's First Brew.
This is true, ground breaking beer in its day,personally I find it a little bland nowadays.

[Aqualung]

This is true, ground breaking beer in its day,personally I find it a little bland nowadays.

As was the stronger Summer Lightning. Arguably the brewery paved the way for pale hoppy beers which has been extended by the use of New World hops.
I'll try anything but it does annoy me when a pub has a load of beers on that are all around 4% abv. Maybe they can't sell stronger beers like some pubs can't sell dark beers.

[Aqualung]

I do find it interesting how the pub scene have changed over the years. The terms "gastro pub" and "micro pub" were unheard of 15 years ago (unless I lived under a rock at the time). Yes, of course many pubs did food, but the fancy dining experience offered by some pubs now used to be confined to restaurants.

People's habits have changed too, and pubs have had to evolve to keep going. How many people now go to the pub to get pissed on their lunch break compared to the 80s? Many young people these days don't drink at all so never go into a pub except for a meal. The traditional wet led pub is becoming less common because in many cases that business model is not sustainable. It's a case of having to adapt or die, even if that is not always popular with people who want a "proper pub".

We all have our own take on what makes a good pub too. For me and I suspect many people on here the availability of decent real ale is a big factor. Some people seem to hate Wetherspoon pubs, some love them, others are indifferent. But you can't argue that they are hugely popular and often the busiest pub in the area.

Some good points there. I'm not certain about this but I would say that gastropub may have arrived in the 1990s. That was the decade when Spoons turned their attention to food and sold off outlets that couldn't sustain a kitchen and most of these were in North London.
The office drinking culture has definitely gone as seems to have happened with younger folk.
I'm with you on the real ale aspect and it has to be quality stuff not rubbish from the Global Abominations, Marston or Greene King.

You don't mention price. In London this is becoming increasingly important. The two E11 JDWs I go to all charge £2.09 a pint for all guest casks which is less than a half of what most "proper" London suburban pubs charge. This seems to have created a climate where occasional drinkers (and myself) just won't go to "proper" London pubs. It's the pubcos that are inflating London prices, not business rates or duty levels and they should be held to account.

[Mobyduck]

As was the stronger Summer Lightning. Arguably the brewery paved the way for pale hoppy beers which has been extended by the use of New World hops.
I'll try anything but it does annoy me when a pub has a load of beers on that are all around 4% abv. Maybe they can't sell stronger beers like some pubs can't sell dark beers.

My local for example rarely has anything more than 4.5% apart from the regular Gales HSB, Its not so much the beer strength but the high prices paid by being pubco tied, thus even a small mark up makes the beer far too expensive for the regular drinker.

[NickDavies]

This seems to have created a climate where occasional drinkers (and myself) just won't go to "proper" London pubs.

Surely you mean regular drinkers won't go to "proper" pubs. If (like me) you seldom drink more than five or six pints a week in pubs you are not going to get too excited if you spend a tenner more one week than another, it's below the noise level. If you drink twenty pints a week the cost becomes an important consideration on most incomes.

[RealAleRobUK]

An article I posted some weeks ago from the Financial Times pointed out that traditional pubs shudder when a 'spoons opens nearby, which is why I always prefer to spend my cash in a traditional pub, ideally family-owned, to help keep them in business. It's an expensive act of 'charity' though...

I guess the thing with a Wetherspoon pub is that it is a safe bet. You know the formula, you know what you are going to get and that it's not going to be expensive. I'm a charitable person myself, and I do like to split my trade between establishments and I enjoy trying new pubs. Sometimes one visit is enough and there is nothing to go back for, but at least I tried it.


Some good points there. I'm not certain about this but I would say that gastropub may have arrived in the 1990s. That was the decade when Spoons turned their attention to food and sold off outlets that couldn't sustain a kitchen and most of these were in North London.

And I suppose this opens up another debate as to what constitutes a gastro pub? For me, a pub that serves food is not automatically a gastro pub, there has to be the impression of it being reasonably high end, often with a separate seating area where the tables are already laid and have proper napkins and wine glasses on the tables. At a minimum there would be table service, and the menu would be slightly "fancy". But that's just my take, I think you sometimes just get that "gastro pub" impression when you walk in to some places.


I'm with you on the real ale aspect and it has to be quality stuff not rubbish from the Global Abominations, Marston or Greene King.

Quite, unless I am being dragged along for some reason, these are not normally pubs I would choose to go to. Often the real ale in these places is a "token offering" rather than proving the pub is actually interested in real ale, and that leads me to question how committed they are to looking after it properly.


You don't mention price. In London this is becoming increasingly important. The two E11 JDWs I go to all charge £2.09 a pint for all guest casks which is less than a half of what most "proper" London suburban pubs charge. This seems to have created a climate where occasional drinkers (and myself) just won't go to "proper" London pubs. It's the pubcos that are inflating London prices, not business rates or duty levels and they should be held to account.

The way I see it, on a pub crawl you can stomach the occasional pub that is a bit pricey, because at the end of the night you don't really notice being a couple of quid down on the last time you went out. Of course, it is completely different if you are going to one pub for a session, where the effect would be more noticeable.

[Aqualung]

Surely you mean regular drinkers won't go to "proper" pubs. If (like me) you seldom drink more than five or six pints a week in pubs you are not going to get too excited if you spend a tenner more one week than another, it's below the noise level. If you drink twenty pints a week the cost becomes an important consideration on most incomes.

Yes you're absolutely right but it's getting worse in London. All guest casks in the two E11 JDWs charge £2.09 a pint , a figure that has gone down over the last few years. The abv range is 3.5% up to occasionally 6.5% but usually 6.0%. I've been to 2 East London proper pubs in the last year that charge £4.50 for unexceptional beers. That makes a difference of £12.55 for your 5 pints which is a significant amount. It's nowhere near that much difference in most parts of the UK. Batham's have yet to break the £3.00 barrier and their Mild is £2.45, Holden's Special in the Great Western only this year broke the £3.00 barrier.
There are only three possible reasons for this inflated rents by the pubcos, inflated wholesale beer prices by the pubcos or greedy landlords. I suspect the fist two are far more to blame.
I was chatting to a couple a few weeks ago who don't go to certain pubs because they are so expensive.

[rpadam]

There are only three possible reasons for this inflated rents by the pubcos, inflated wholesale beer prices by the pubcos or greedy landlords.
Really?

[Pangolin]

I would not like to live in a world where all pubs offer cheaper beer by adopting 'Our Tim's' marketing policies, any more than one where they are all dominated by a 'Mr Humphrey'. I will happily pay a little more to enjoy a differing variety of pubs, even Greene King and Marstons ones, and yes there are extremes and some have serious delusions on what people are prepared to pay. But don't underestimate the costs of running a pub, quite apart from rapacious Pubco charges.

[Spinko]

I would not like to live in a world where all pubs offer cheaper beer by adopting 'Our Tim's' marketing policies, any more than one where they are all dominated by a 'Mr Humphrey'. I will happily pay a little more to enjoy a differing variety of pubs, even Greene King and Marstons ones, and yes there are extremes and some have serious delusions on what people are prepared to pay. But don't underestimate the costs of running a pub, quite apart from rapacious Pubco charges.

I've often wondered how much pubs have to pay for any music they have on in the background. Several of my favourite micropubs have great tracklists but sound like private collections...

[NickDavies]

I've often wondered how much pubs have to pay for any music they have on in the background. Several of my favourite micropubs have great tracklists but sound like private collections...

£142.97 if smaller than 400 sq m. If it's a small place with just the telly or radio on it's less.

https://pplprs.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Background-Music-Tariff-Public-Houses-Bars-Restaurants-and-Cafes-Hotel-PPLPP210.pdf

https://pplprs.co.uk/business/pubs-bars/

[Aqualung]

I would not like to live in a world where all pubs offer cheaper beer by adopting 'Our Tim's' marketing policies, any more than one where they are all dominated by a 'Mr Humphrey'. I will happily pay a little more to enjoy a differing variety of pubs, even Greene King and Marstons ones, and yes there are extremes and some have serious delusions on what people are prepared to pay. But don't underestimate the costs of running a pub, quite apart from rapacious Pubco charges.


I agree with you but not in London and I'm getting increasingly disillusioned with Marston despite their pubs generally being reasonably priced. Any pub charging over double.the prices in a JDW is worth avoiding. Happily it generally doesn't happen outside London and other parts of the South.

[Tris39]

Some good points there. I'm not certain about this but I would say that gastropub may have arrived in the 1990s. That was the decade when Spoons turned their attention to food and sold off outlets that couldn't sustain a kitchen and most of these were in North London.


The Eagle (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/23318/) is regarded as being London's first gastropub in the conventional sense (1991), and is in fact widely considered as being the first in the country. I went to The Roebuck Inn (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/32077/) in 1989 and the food was very high end, even by today's standards but is rejected by pendants as being a gastropub as the eatery was a restaurant with a different name - Poppie's at that time - in an extension to the pub, rather than eating at table; no idea what it's like today.

[Aqualung]

The Eagle (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/23318/) is regarded as being London's first gastropub in the conventional sense (1991), and is in fact widely considered as being the first in the country. I went to The Roebuck Inn (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/32077/) in 1989 and the food was very high end, even by today's standards but is rejected by pendants as being a gastropub as the eatery was a restaurant with a different name - Poppie's at that time - in an extension to the pub, rather than eating at table; no idea what it's like today.

Thanks for that, my instinct was that they probably started in the 1990s in the same way that micropubs only really made an impact in the current decade. Back in 1991 Wetherspoon were still a small mostly if not entirely London based pub chain.

[Pangolin]

The Eagle (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/23318/) is regarded as being London's first gastropub in the conventional sense (1991), and is in fact widely considered as being the first in the country. I went to The Roebuck Inn (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/32077/) in 1989 and the food was very high end, even by today's standards but is rejected by pendants as being a gastropub as the eatery was a restaurant with a different name - Poppie's at that time - in an extension to the pub, rather than eating at table; no idea what it's like today.

Restaurants attached to pubs are nothing new, with one of the most significant examples being the Waterside Inn in Bray, which Michel and Albert Roux took over in 1972 with the aim of introducing French gastronomie. I visited it in the late 1970s when it was still just about a pub and certainly possible just to have a pint despite the growing reputation of the restaurant. Sadly by the time it had picked up a Michelin Star or two they gave up any pretence of pub and it became just a restaurant. Various other chefs have followed this course. I think the (slightly tenuous) distinction that the Eagle successfully seized on was the serving of posh food in the pub itself. Since then of course the 'Gastropub' has acquired a style of its own, instantly recognisable when you step in the door.

[NickDavies]

Since then of course the 'Gastropub' has acquired a style of its own,.

My take on it is that a gastropub has that uniquely British system of ordering food at the counter then waiting for it to be delivered to your table*. Agreed that happens in most pubs but the gastro- tag suggests the food quality crosses a blurred line of fanciness. Also agreed that the setup becomes pointless when all the tables are reserved for diners and you are still made to order everything at the counter. You pay restaurant prices but don't get restaurant service.

A restaurant has full food and drinks service throughout the meal. Many places which style themselves gastopubs are in fact restaurants.

*I'm sure most overseas visitors find the whole thing weird. As must bar staff overseas when a Brit walks up to the counter clutching a menu and starts reading it to them.