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Conrad
01-07-2010, 15:52
In the same way we have started marking up Cask Marque pubs (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/55326/) I am thinking we should probably indicate that a pub is listed in the GBG (and what year, so we could set up historical).

Would anyone be interested if we gave them the ability to in going through pubs and tagging them as listed in the GBG.

Also does anyone know of any issues related to us doing this?

There is the potential for us to make these things searchable, again does anyone know of any issues related to it being searchable?

Farway
01-07-2010, 16:01
Seems a good idea to me, not sure of "issues", as CAMRA gain an income from this, and have a chargeable search facility on the move I "think" they may not like it too much if it was freely searchable via PuG, web phones etc

No doubt if a publican made an entry "we are in GBG 2010" then I guess that would be normal comment

I suppose the easy option would be ask GBG?

Conrad
01-07-2010, 16:13
I suspect I know the answer with regards to asking the GBG, although if anyone knows someone involved that might make it more viable.

oldboots
01-07-2010, 18:12
CAMRA are definitely very against anything that easily identifies GBG pubs because of the income thing, being able to search for all the GBG pubs in a town or county would give them apoplexy, they may even call in m'learned friends for breach of copyright. It has been said, either in What's Brewing or on the Members Forum that you can indicate it's GBG listed but not produce lists of pubs that are in it. Don't know how you would stand with historical data.

Conrad
01-07-2010, 19:54
I come back to my observation of what good is an award you are not allowed to promote? Cask Marque needed a little hassling to give us their list of pubs, but I got the impression that was more to do with work overload than any reticence, and they are suggesting they will be happy to give us updates.

Anyway any feedback welcomed here, I would love to provide any level of service we can. Even if it is just showing historical GBG pubs without search rather than this years (we could link into CAMRA's GBG page to try and get them sales).

Also clearly if anyone has a good contact in GBG/CAMRA that we can chat with to see if there is a way we can do it to promote their guide then do let me know so I can take advantage of your contacts ;).

rpadam
01-07-2010, 20:12
I come back to my observation of what good is an award you are not allowed to promote? Cask Marque needed a little hassling to give us their list of pubs, but I got the impression that was more to do with work overload than any reticence, and they are suggesting they will be happy to give us updates.

Anyway any feedback welcomed here, I would love to provide any level of service we can. Even if it is just showing historical GBG pubs without search rather than this years (we could link into CAMRA's GBG page to try and get them sales).

Also clearly if anyone has a good contact in GBG/CAMRA that we can chat with to see if there is a way we can do it to promote their guide then do let me know so I can take advantage of your contacts ;).
Unfortunately, I would be very surprised if you get any cooperation at all from CAMRA on this issue... and I seem to recall that they have almost been on the point of taking legal action against some their own branches for publishing local lists of GBG pubs on their websites!

However, if somebody were to state that pub 'A' is GBG-listed then this is just a statement of fact. Same for pubs 'B', 'C' and 'D', but what if you go all the way through the book to pub 'Z'?

From the discussions I heard at the 2009 AGM, CAMRA branch guides mentioning a GBG listing in individual pub descriptions didn't seem to be an issue, but presenting a full list was what was considered to be the major 'crime'.

Clearly pubs are free (in fact, probably tacitly encouraged) to mention a GBG listing in their own advertising. The position with a printed or online guide which added "GBG 2010 listed" to the description of each pub, but which didn't present this information as a list, may be something for lawyers...

Conrad
01-07-2010, 20:27
Every time I seem to end up having to think about CAMRA as an entity rather than the branches it just seems to turn into a headache, oh well. I live in hope that we will get into a decent relationship with them one day.

I am guessing it all comes down to phrasing since their trademark will exist on Good Beer Guide, so something along the lines of listed in Good Beer Guide XXXX is probably fine as it in now way passes you off as the GBG. Undoubtedly as OB says even that would end up with our learned friends involved which is more grief than we are in a position to cope with.

I am taking it from this that if it could be worked people would want it.

rpadam
01-07-2010, 22:46
I am taking it from this that if it could be worked people would want it.
Well, I would certainly welcome it.

Eddie86
02-07-2010, 00:06
I suggested this as a development of the local CAMRA site (still not built but discussion regular). It would appear listing all the pubs in the GBG for the region would be highly inappropriate - along the ideas of you have to buy the GBG to find a list of all the pubs in the region in it.

Perhaps this is the first piece of marketing Pug could do - allow pubs to pay for the privilege of 'advertising' their awards. If every pub in a region got a line to describe their pub (for a price) and decided to use it to say they were in the GBG then I doubt much could be done - we advertise it all the time and quite frankly I think we're advertising the GBG by mentioning it in our adverts. A discussion for later perhaps.

From a customer's point of view I'd suggest you stay friendly with CAMRA. If they catch up and want in on the internet pub thing (whatever that may be) then being in their good books can only help IMO...

Conrad
02-07-2010, 11:09
So Ed, you are basically saying that CAMRA are giving me a good excuse to charge pub owners :) - when you put it like that I can see how they provide a valuable service.

I still think the guide should be a supplement with their reviews and observations, but the GBG list should be promoted as hard as possible to try and sell the supplement. Can you imagine things like Michelin ratings not being fully published in anything apart from the Michelin guide.

Ah well realistically it is less work for me, it just irks for so many reasons, why is a campaign group so keen on keeping its data contained to make money on a guide? Have I misunderstood about the fact that campaigns should be promoted :moremad:

Sorry too hot in the office today.

Farway
02-07-2010, 13:40
Reminds me a bit of some local Family History societies, they refused to allow parish register items on the internet, even under licence, believing people eould have to buy from them and thus have a steady income stream

How wrong they were, it only took a large commercial organisation to transcribe & do their own research, and the local FHSs lost all hope of any income for ever

Your point about Michelin is a very good example, one would think any town / village etc would be very happy to promote they have a GBG pub or two in their village / town, and GBG would welcome the publicity

gillhalfpint
03-07-2010, 07:32
I often start my review with "Visited this Good Beer Guide pub and..........." as that gives a reason why I selected it to visit.

Have never thought of it as treading on someones toes!

Conrad
03-07-2010, 12:30
Well if anyone hears anything new or has any great thoughts on this let me know. For now though I think Gill's approach is probably our soundest, just mention it in your reviews if you know it is true. Hopefully in the future we will allow pubs to add it to their listing as part of a subscription (it may even be true ;)).

ROBCamra
06-07-2010, 09:01
Well if anyone hears anything new or has any great thoughts on this let me know. For now though I think Gill's approach is probably our soundest, just mention it in your reviews if you know it is true. Hopefully in the future we will allow pubs to add it to their listing as part of a subscription (it may even be true ;)).

The GBG does say that you have to have permission to reproduce any of it, it doesn't say you categorically can't.

Conrad, if you want the definitive answer I have Roger Protz's email address (assuming it hasn't changed recently). I will PM it to you if you want.

I had an email discussion with him a while ago about some breweries that had been marked as closed that I discovered were still brewing in a different location.

He was very happy to discuss things, so it might be worth a try.

Conrad
06-07-2010, 10:22
That would be really good ROB, at least then I can be constructive rather than just moaning.

As you say got to be worth a try, I genuinely believe it is better for them as well (but I would).

oldboots
07-07-2010, 16:14
The GBG does say that you have to have permission to reproduce any of it, it doesn't say you categorically can't.

I can't find that in my copy of the 2010, however at the bottom of the inside last page under the UK map it says in the conditions of sale;

"No part of this publication may be reproduced, stored in retreival systems or transmitted in any form or by any means - electronic, mechanical, photocopying or otherwise - without the prior permission of the Campaign for Real Ale Limited." It still might be worth talking to Roger Protz or Tom Stainer or maybe raising it on the Forum?

Conrad
07-07-2010, 16:27
The 1 time I used the CAMRA forum it turned into a bit of a mud slinging event, they have a huge advocate over there trying to promote his own web site, with a burning conviction that this is the only way it should be done. Not being a marketeer I just find it all a bit overwhelming and prefer to try and do more personal approaches.

Saying which I have emailed Roger Protz now and tried to outline what I feel the benefits would be. Hopefully if he takes it seriously he can pass me on to the correct person even if he can't deal with it himself.

Andy Ven
17-07-2010, 15:40
Besides beer, I think people may also be interested in the pub itself. Such as The National Inventory of Historic Pub Interiors

http://www.heritagepubs.org.uk/home/nationalinventory.asp

Conrad
19-07-2010, 16:10
Another CAMRA site :(. Haven't got a reply on my last try yet, if I do though I can follow up on this one.

Farway
20-07-2010, 13:56
I wonder just how good is the The National Inventory of Historic Pub Interiors? Can they really say only around 300 pubs in the entire UK have historic interiors?

Or do they mean only CAMRA listed pubs with historic interiors?

Can it be true there are none in historic cities such as Portsmouth, Chester or Winchester, and only one each in Southampton, Brighton & Salisbury?

I am not architect or history fiend, but it all seems a bit under researched at first glance

Or perhaps the wrecking ball has really swung on all UK pubs

aleandhearty
20-07-2010, 14:11
I wonder just how good is the The National Inventory of Historic Pub Interiors? Can they really say only around 300 pubs in the entire UK have historic interiors?


Here are the criteria for inclusion off the CAMRA website:

"Criteria for Inclusion
The focus is entirely on interiors and what is authentically old. The pub should retain a reasonable amount of genuinely historic internal fabric and/or sufficient of the layout for the historic plan-form to be appreciated and understood. The emphasis is on pre-1939 interiors, although post-war examples might occasionally be considered if they have particular merit / quality fittings. The interior should be little altered in the past 40 years.

Applying the Criteria
When considering a pub for inclusion in a Regional Inventory of Historic Pubs Interiors / Real Heritage Pub guide there are two aspects to look at: -

a) Historic plan. Is it largely intact? ** A two room pub that previously had 3 rooms could pass this part of the criteria.

b) Specific features. The greater the amount of original features – like the bar counter, bar-back, wall-tiles, screens, original toilets and so on – the better. If all that survives is a couple of fixed benches and a bit of match-board wall panelling in a largely opened up pub, then inclusion cannot be justified since they are very commonplace items found in large numbers. But add in a largely intact servery and only a slightly opened-up plan and it probably can be. A specific interesting feature or two might justify inclusion, but would have to be of real significance for inclusion of an otherwise wrecked interior."


I would have thought local branches would have sniffed out any interiors worthy of inclusion, but perhaps that is a bit naiive?

oldboots
20-07-2010, 17:14
I wonder just how good is the The National Inventory of Historic Pub Interiors? Can they really say only around 300 pubs in the entire UK have historic interiors?

Or do they mean only CAMRA listed pubs with historic interiors?

I believe it's only 179 in part one which lists pubs with "interiors which remained very much as they had been before the Second World War", a second part was added for "rooms and features of national importance in otherwise altered pubs". GBG listing or Real Ale are not required for listing.



Can it be true there are none in historic cities such as Portsmouth, Chester or Winchester, and only one each in Southampton, Brighton & Salisbury?

Portsmouth suffered from the Luftwaffe, post war planners and worst of all Whitbread, I can't think of a suitable interior in Winchester, the Eclipse comes closest but I think it's mainly 1950s/1960s and the Battery Inn would have been but it was demolished years ago. I'm surprised there's one in Southampton - same problems as Pompey, just look at the Crown in Highfield Lane I remember that as unspolit Edwardian including the landlady.


but it all seems a bit under researched at first glance
Or perhaps the wrecking ball has really swung on all UK pubs

Six years research by CAMRA and the Victorian Society on Part 1 apparantly. And yes there were lots of wrecking balls in lots of pubs and still are, how many constantly re-themed pubs do you know?

Conrad
20-07-2010, 21:16
Six years research by CAMRA and the Victorian Society on Part 1 apparantly. And yes there were lots of wrecking balls in lots of pubs and still are, how many constantly re-themed pubs do you know?
Have to admit I was going to go with naive and then realised that I couldn't think of any pubs that would fit the criteria, and far too many that just got constantly re-themed.

ROBCamra
21-07-2010, 11:16
Saying which I have emailed Roger Protz now and tried to outline what I feel the benefits would be. Hopefully if he takes it seriously he can pass me on to the correct person even if he can't deal with it himself.

I assume you haven't had a reply from Roger. The email address may be out of date if he's moved broadband suppliers. It may be worth trying the CAMRA email address. Either his personal one or the generic one.

Conrad
21-07-2010, 11:52
Hi ROB,

Not yet, as you will see just tried the alt address you contributed. We'll see if that gives any joy. :)

Thanks again.

Conrad
21-07-2010, 20:06
We just got a reply off Roger. He has passed it on to someone else who can deal with it.

Very good of him to respond so quickly though, and he didn't just point and laugh, so fingers crossed.

Andy Ven
21-07-2010, 20:17
If you did succeed in obtaining the list I'm assuming you would have to go through it and tag each pub on PG manually?

If that's the case you would be just as well to buy a GBG from Amazon for under a tenner with free postage....?

I have a copy, I could do the West Midlands for starters and see how I get on

gillhalfpint
21-07-2010, 20:53
Someone says the 2011 GBG is being advertised on Amazon (at 10.39 I believe it was) for delivery early September.

Conrad
21-07-2010, 21:06
If you did succeed in obtaining the list I'm assuming you would have to go through it and tag each pub on PG manually?

If that's the case you would be just as well to buy a GBG from Amazon for under a tenner with free postage....?

I have a copy, I could do the West Midlands for starters and see how I get on
We would have to see how it works. If they gave us an electronic list we could use a matching routine in a similar way to how we have matched Cask Marque and Randomness London Guide. Eventually though I am hoping to distribute more of these sort of responsibilities to the community in the way you suggest, allowing those who wish to be more involved to help and allowing me and Dave to try and keep adding to the site.

The big hurdle is trying to avoid threats of litigation though so the approach to Roger/CAMRA is more about trying to do it in a way that they are happy with, in my approach I have offered a few alternatives that I think would be beneficial for the GBG and the PuG site. Hopefully they will be happy to agree to something or suggest a solution that works for them.

Andy Ven
22-07-2010, 17:25
Someone says the 2011 GBG is being advertised on Amazon (at 10.39 I believe it was) for delivery early September.

You're right! Released on 16th September

ROBCamra
22-07-2010, 17:57
You're right! Released on 16th September

I signed up to the Direct Debit scheme some years ago. So I get mine even earlier and even cheaper. Bargain!:)

Pangolin
15-10-2010, 16:04
In the event permission is granted, there are probably some shortcuts. Look at this for example!

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ccaajpa/pubs-listed.html

Conrad
15-10-2010, 16:07
Not holding my breath, it looks like CAMRA are going ahead with their own pub web site, so they would be sensible to do this themselves.

A great pity, the other alternate approach is to allow the pubs to list their awards if they join us.