Micropub Definitions

[Mobyduck]

Having a trawl (dredge) through CAMRA's Discourse forum earlier I spotted a link to the Pubs Galore Micropubs in the UK (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pub-features/micropubs/), with the comment "this is the most reliable and easily accessible resource", which is a good thumbs up for PuG. It got me thinking as to how definitive is it as a list that is in some quarters as being the best out there. Our list is defined (as far as I understand it} on a single persons definition of what is or isn't a micropub, i.e the person that marks it thus on the main site pub page.
The example I have , and I'm sure there are others, is Overdraft (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/83743/) in Southampton and Overdraft (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/85804/) In Winchester, being sister pubs they are pretty much identical in what they look like and do. Neither are on our Micropub list, the Southampton one has been marked as no by Aqualung, presumably based on my comments that there are a couple of turntables, used at certain times of the week for music/DJ nights, I have marked the Winchester one as not a micropub for the same reasons, and Quinnos review hints of not being a true Micropub. However CAMRA's WhatPub Describe them as Micropubs and the Southampton venue is included on the Micropub and Microbrewery Association list of pubs (http://www.micropubassociation.co.uk/micropubs/),but strangely not its sister . So to cut a long story short ,a bit late now I know, If we have the definitive list on Micropubs are we doing it down with certain omitions based on slight technicality's, based on a particular members personal views or is it good that we are running a tight ship?

[Quinno]

If we have the definitive list on Micropubs are we doing it down with certain omitions based on slight technicality's, based on a particular members personal views or is it good that we are running a tight ship?

Well like all other things with a name, what is a micropub? Hillier's club is a very narrow worldview which would never last as other operators looked at the 'rent an empty shop space' and just run a place in whichever way they see fit (music, lager etc etc). If micro means small, well what abut places like the Nutshell in BSE?

Much like Turtle Bay / what is a pub, it's down to the individual...was it Mary Whitehouse who said she couldn't define filth but knew it when she saw it?

[Tris39]

Well like all other things with a name, what is a micropub? Hillier's club is a very narrow worldview which would never last as other operators looked at the 'rent an empty shop space' and just run a place in whichever way they see fit (music, lager etc etc). If micro means small, well what abut places like the Nutshell in BSE?

Much like Turtle Bay / what is a pub, it's down to the individual...was it Mary Whitehouse who said she couldn't define filth but knew it when she saw it?

Real Ale (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/85778/) : despite the misleading name - it seems to sell keg only - I don't know if this should be listed as a Micro.

[Aqualung]

Was it Mary Whitehouse who said she couldn't define filth but knew it when she saw it?

I suspect it was and at least this gave me a good laugh over this thorny subject.

I know what a "proper" micropub is and here are my guidelines :-

It should just sell real ale, optionally real cider and wines, soft drinks including tea and coffee, no keg and no spirits. The size of the place is completely irrelevant. There should be no music other than live acoustic, no TV, and no jukeboxes or other electronic machines.

There are plenty of these places around and then we come to the rest.

Many places break one or more of these rules, the most common being selling a selection of spirits (usually obscure gins). Other ones have included a few crafty offerings or maybe a non mainstream lager. You'll also find TVs in some or music systems. I went to one in Standish last week that had a TV on but it was showing Countdown! I had a long stay in Wigan Central last week which is one of the original ones on the Micropub Association list and while it's a great place it's really a small pub rather than a micropub as music was playing the whole time I was there and several people were drinking lager. The best example of all this grief is the Gypsy Rover in Redcar which says it's a micropub on the window but inside they have some mainstream keg products, a large TV screen and live music several nights of the week.

The only suggestion I can come up with is that any new venue that has no cask ale at all or regular live amplified music or a permanently in use TV with BT Sports and / or Sky Sports isn't a micropub.

[Aqualung]

Real Ale (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/85778/) : despite the misleading name - it seems to sell keg only - I don't know if this should be listed as a Micro.

The way I see it is that no cask means it's not a micropub. That doesn't mean I wouldn't visit if it was outside the South.

[london calling]

I suspect it was and at least this gave me a good laugh over this thorny subject.

I know what a "proper" micropub is and here are my guidelines :-

It should just sell real ale, optionally real cider and wines, soft drinks including tea and coffee, no keg and no spirits. The size of the place is completely irrelevant. There should be no music other than live acoustic, no TV, and no jukeboxes or other electronic machines.

There are plenty of these places around and then we come to the rest.

Many places break one or more of these rules, the most common being selling a selection of spirits (usually obscure gins). Other ones have included a few crafty offerings or maybe a non mainstream lager. You'll also find TVs in some or music systems. I went to one in Standish last week that had a TV on but it was showing Countdown! I had a long stay in Wigan Central last week which is one of the original ones on the Micropub Association list and while it's a great place it's really a small pub rather than a micropub as music was playing the whole time I was there and several people were drinking lager. The best example of all this grief is the Gypsy Rover in Redcar which says it's a micropub on the window but inside they have some mainstream keg products, a large TV screen and live music several nights of the week.

The only suggestion I can come up with is that any new venue that has no cask ale at all or regular live amplified music or a permanently in use TV with BT Sports and / or Sky Sports isn't a micropub.
I have 2 close by.The Dodo which would fit your rules but the Owl and Pussycat which I was in last night would fall foul as he brews and sells his own rather good keg beers.

[Delboy20]

This is from the "Micropubs in the UK" Facebook group-

Micropubs included in this group should follow the original Micropub Association concept

A micropub by the original definition is “A micropub is a small freehouse which listens to its customers, mainly serves cask ales, promotes conversation, shuns all forms of electronic entertainment and dabbles in traditional pub snacks”

They have the same debate on what is or isn't on there too.

It says "mainly cask ale" - that suggests to me that they can sell other drinks including keg and spirits.

This is worse than "Turtle Bay gate"!!

[Aqualung]

I have 2 close by.The Dodo which would fit your rules but the Owl and Pussycat which I was in last night would fall foul as he brews and sells his own rather good keg beers.

Remember my guidelines are for a "proper" micropub. I haven't been to either but suspect they both deserve to be flagged as ones. If the Owl and Pussycat had no cask at all then I would not call it a micropub.
This has nothing to do with my own preferences but more the original template for these places. A decent "craft" keg would probably make me stay for one more if it wasn't too much of a rip off.

[Aqualung]

This is worse than "Turtle Bay gate"!!

You're not wrong there and the Micropub Association includes several venues that break their own guidelines. I get the impression that overall What Pub takes a more stringent line than on here. This depends entirely on the individual from the local branch that maintains it.

[Bucking Fastard]

Real Ale (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/85778/) : despite the misleading name - it seems to sell keg only - I don't know if this should be listed as a Micro.



I visited this place recently and didn't activate the Micropub tab but left it listed as "Unknown ".Essentially it's a bottle shop but also serves beer on the premises.Although it appears all keg,I didn't ask whether some of the beers came from key kegs,which I believe is now OK from a CAMRA point of view viz real ale.I have been to micro's that do offer key keg along with cask.

All I know is that IMHO the beer selection in Real Ale on my trip was excellent and I spent a while in there drinking.It was too close a call for me to hit the Micropub tab.

I noticed that the WhatPub entry is completely wrong.

[trainman]

a CAMRA point of view viz real ale.
Are CAMRA now embracing the VIZ heroes?

First one I found...
RATs march onward..!!!1752

[Tris39]

I suspect it was and at least this gave me a good laugh over this thorny subject.

I know what a "proper" micropub is and here are my guidelines :-

It should just sell real ale, optionally real cider and wines, soft drinks including tea and coffee, no keg and no spirits. The size of the place is completely irrelevant. There should be no music other than live acoustic, no TV, and no jukeboxes or other electronic machines.

Sounds like all typical pubs pre-1900, though I've seen some period pub photos from around this time which show Tennent's lager advertised, and one from 1890 advertising Löwenbräu!


Are CAMRA now embracing the VIZ heroes?

First one I found...
RATs march onward..!!!1752

LOL! 'Casketeers'... 'Cascophiles'... 'Owld Scoutmaster's Downright Peculiar'. I haven't seen a copy of Viz for over 25 years.

[Aqualung]

Was it Mary Whitehouse who said she couldn't define filth but knew it when she saw it?

While on the subject of VIZ it's pretty obvious where the inspiration for Mrs Brady came from!

[london calling]

There is a new micropub or maybe not a micropub opening New Cross tomorrow.The Ale Bar.
They have disqualified themselves by calling it a microbar.
says Real ale and Gin Microbar and performance space. Is this a new category?
They also have a scenic model railway that runs around the bar.Hopefully at high level.

[Aqualung]

There is a new micropub or maybe not a micropub opening New Cross tomorrow.The Ale Bar.
They have disqualified themselves by calling it a microbar.
says Real ale and Gin Microbar and performance space. Is this a new category?
They also have a scenic model railway that runs around the bar.Hopefully at high level.

Is the model railway an electronic device? Not really, some micropubs have turntables for playing vinyl records. As far as I'm concerned it all depends on what else they do. The performance space bit would likely exclude it but as they don't claim to be a micropub it doesn't really matter.

[Pangolin]

There is a new micropub or maybe not a micropub opening New Cross tomorrow.The Ale Bar.
They have disqualified themselves by calling it a microbar.
says Real ale and Gin Microbar and performance space. Is this a new category?


At the end of the London Micropubs (https://londonist.com/london/drink/best-micropubs-london) feature in the Yet Another List thread are some described as "Not Micropubs but definitely Microbars"!

Hell's teeth - where will it all end?

[Mobyduck]

I suspect it was and at least this gave me a good laugh over this thorny subject.

I know what a "proper" micropub is and here are my guidelines :-

It should just sell real ale, optionally real cider and wines, soft drinks including tea and coffee, no keg and no spirits. The size of the place is completely irrelevant. There should be no music other than live acoustic, no TV, and no jukeboxes or other electronic machines.

There are plenty of these places around and then we come to the rest.

Many places break one or more of these rules, the most common being selling a selection of spirits (usually obscure gins). Other ones have included a few crafty offerings or maybe a non mainstream lager. You'll also find TVs in some or music systems. I went to one in Standish last week that had a TV on but it was showing Countdown! I had a long stay in Wigan Central last week which is one of the original ones on the Micropub Association list and while it's a great place it's really a small pub rather than a micropub as music was playing the whole time I was there and several people were drinking lager. The best example of all this grief is the Gypsy Rover in Redcar which says it's a micropub on the window but inside they have some mainstream keg products, a large TV screen and live music several nights of the week.

The only suggestion I can come up with is that any new venue that has no cask ale at all or regular live amplified music or a permanently in use TV with BT Sports and / or Sky Sports isn't a micropub.


At the end of the London Micropubs (https://londonist.com/london/drink/best-micropubs-london) feature in the Yet Another List thread are some described as "Not Micropubs but definitely Microbars"!

Hell's teeth - where will it all end?
Unless there are hard and fast rules set down by a governing body such as the way CAMRA defined Real Ale, though that definition seems to be getting fuzzier as time goes on,there will be no clear cut idea of what is or not a micropub as its down to personal thoughts. I agree with much of Aqualungs rules, but have no problem with keg alongside cask and in this case I think size does matter to a point.
For what its worth I consider the two Overdrafts from the first post on this thread to be Craft Bars as opposed to micropubs, I don't suppose it really matters what a pubs handle is as long as you enjoy it (or not).

[rpadam]

From the Micropub Association website:

What is a micropub?

‘A Micropub is a small freehouse which listens to its customers, mainly serves cask ales, promotes conversation, shuns all forms of electronic entertainment and dabbles in traditional pub snacks’.

[Mobyduck]

From the Micropub Association website:

What is a micropub?

‘A Micropub is a small freehouse which listens to its customers, mainly serves cask ales, promotes conversation, shuns all forms of electronic entertainment and dabbles in traditional pub snacks’.

By saying mainly cask ales, it suggests a micropub can serve whatever else it likes drinkwise, It also "shuns all forms of electronic entertainment" yet on their website names Overdraft Southampton on their list of Micropubs despite the dual turntables. The above is a simple and fair rule but is not always adhered to it seems.

[rpadam]

By saying mainly cask ales, it suggests a micropub can serve whatever else it likes drinkwise
??? And why not ???

[Aqualung]

Their website names Overdraft Southampton on their list of Micropubs despite the dual turntables. The above is a simple and fair rule but is not always adhered to it seems.
That one is only the tip of a large iceberg. Many micropubs have TVs or music playing, Often the TVs are just for major sporting events rather than Sky or BT Sports (I doubt that any micropub would fork out for the subscription) but last week caught part of an episode of Countdown. Most micropubs do boxed ciders as well as cask ale and that doesn't get a mention. Many do cans and bottles to drink on site or take away and many also do some spirits, typically speciality gins. One Midlands micropub that is a GBG regular does a range of mainstream spirits which struck me as not being in line with the micropub ethos.

[sheffield hatter]

This is from the "Micropubs in the UK" Facebook group-

Micropubs included in this group should follow the original Micropub Association concept

A micropub by the original definition is “A micropub is a small freehouse which listens to its customers, mainly serves cask ales, promotes conversation, shuns all forms of electronic entertainment and dabbles in traditional pub snacks”

They have the same debate on what is or isn't on there too.

It says "mainly cask ale" - that suggests to me that they can sell other drinks including keg and spirits.



From the Micropub Association website:

What is a micropub?

‘A Micropub is a small freehouse which listens to its customers, mainly serves cask ales, promotes conversation, shuns all forms of electronic entertainment and dabbles in traditional pub snacks’.


That one is only the tip of a large iceberg. Many micropubs have TVs or music playing, Often the TVs are just for major sporting events rather than Sky or BT Sports (I doubt that any micropub would fork out for the subscription) but last week caught part of an episode of Countdown. Most micropubs do boxed ciders as well as cask ale and that doesn't get a mention. Many do cans and bottles to drink on site or take away and many also do some spirits, typically speciality gins. One Midlands micropub that is a GBG regular does a range of mainstream spirits which struck me as not being in line with the micropub ethos.

Which bit of the definition are they falling foul of? Where does it say in the definition quoted above that mainstream spirits are not allowed?

I'd have thought the most difficult part of the "ethos" to maintain would be dabbling in traditional pub snacks. What on earth does that mean?

[Mobyduck]

Which bit of the definition are they falling foul of? Where does it say in the definition quoted above that mainstream spirits are not allowed?

I'd have thought the most difficult part of the "ethos" to maintain would be dabbling in traditional pub snacks. What on earth does that mean?

We need to define tradition. :whistle:

[sheffield hatter]

We need to define tradition. :whistle:

... and "dabbling". And "snacks". Probably "pub" too.

[rpadam]

... and "dabbling". And "snacks". Probably "pub" too.
Quite, and "dancing on the head of a pin" too!

[Aqualung]

Which bit of the definition are they falling foul of? Where does it say in the definition quoted above that mainstream spirits are not allowed?

It doesn't say anything but the Micropub Association definition doesn't really say much at all. The vast majority of micropubs that sell keg or spirits go for non mainstream products so it's against the spirit of micropubs generally.



I'd have thought the most difficult part of the "ethos" to maintain would be dabbling in traditional pub snacks.
I think what he's getting at is that they don't do meals. One of the Hinckley ones has a microwave and they have curry nights where regulars bring in their own curry creations and the winner presumably gets some sort of prize. Having a full blown menu would be beyond the scope of every micropub I've been to.

[london calling]

The owner of the Kentish Belle says he is one of only 2 micropubs in his area as the Rusty Bucket supposed micropub is not one as it was previously a pub .Micropubs must be from previously non licenced premises.

[sheffield hatter]

The vast majority of micropubs that sell keg or spirits go for non mainstream products so it's against the spirit of micropubs generally.

But this "spirit of micropubs generally" is not expressed anywhere, with the possible exception of in your head. I tend to agree that it would be nice to have micropubs fall into a category of "real ale only" pubs, where the only deviations from the norm are real cider; locally produced and organic spirits; oh, and pork scratchings, but (apart from my vegetarian objections to the skin of dead pigs), I would suggest that this would not be a realistic business model in a time when people who don't like (or are unfamiliar with the delights of) real ale are likely to be (facing a choice about) going to the pub along with people who do.


Having a full blown menu would be beyond the scope of every micropub I've been to.

This is presumably what is meant by "dabbling", but as previously stated, I challenge anyone to define "dabbling" in this context.

[sheffield hatter]

The owner of the Kentish Belle says he is one of only 2 micropubs in his area as the Rusty Bucket supposed micropub is not one as it was previously a pub .Micropubs must be from previously non licenced premises.

Again, the definition provided by the Micropub Association doesn't mention this criterion. It's like the "no mainstream spirits [or lager]" ethos that some people would like to be part of the definition. I'm not saying I disagree with you, but if we've got a "micropub yes/no" tick box on the site, shouldn't we have a definition (not necessarily the definition of the Micropub Association, but something justifiably close to it) to work with? If that's too difficult, perhaps the tick box should be linked directly to the Micropub Association list, so that they can take the flak.

[Aqualung]

The owner of the Kentish Belle says he is one of only 2 micropubs in his area as the Rusty Bucket supposed micropub is not one as it was previously a pub .Micropubs must be from previously non licenced premises.

I've been to both and the Kentish Belle is one of several micropubs in the Borough Of Bexley while the Rusty Bucket is in Eltham SE9 and is in the Borough of Greenwich. The Rusty Bucket is run along similar lines to a micropub but calls itself a bar. It's a shop conversion that was previously owned by Greene King so I can't see how that precludes it. Going by that argument any one that changes owner can no longer be deemed as a micropub which is nonsense. If the Rusty Bucket said micropub on the window or pub sign I would have marked it as a micropub. The Rusty Bucket is well worth a visit and is also close to the smallest JDW in the world.

[sheffield hatter]

The Rusty Bucket is run along similar lines to a micropub but calls itself a bar.

This reminds me of something I read recently on (perhaps) the Pub Curmudgeon's blog, along the lines of, "if the bar is facing you as you walk in - it's a pub; if it's along the side (to right or left) it's a bar". Good grief.

It seems to me that some owners of new drinking establishments, being aware of the Micropub Association's definition, and being wary of the danger of being perceived as not serving "mainstream lagers or spirits" and thereby putting off potential customers, are calling their new drinking establishments bars rather than pubs.

[Aqualung]

Again, the definition provided by the Micropub Association doesn't mention this criterion. It's like the "no mainstream spirits [or lager]" ethos that some people would like to be part of the definition. I'm not saying I disagree with you, but if we've got a "micropub yes/no" tick box on the site, shouldn't we have a definition (not necessarily the definition of the Micropub Association, but something justifiably close to it) to work with? If that's too difficult, perhaps the tick box should be linked directly to the Micropub Association list, so that they can take the flak.

My only make or break guideline would be that there must be at least one cask offering. I don't think this site is getting any flak as people who care about it realise how difficult it is with these borderline cases. The Gypsy Rover in Redcar breaks most of the guidelines but it says micropub on the window.

[Aqualung]

This reminds me of something I read recently on (perhaps) the Pub Curmudgeon's blog, along the lines of, "if the bar is facing you as you walk in - it's a pub; if it's along the side (to right or left) it's a bar". Good grief.
That really is nonsense! What about pubs with different entrances? If it's a genuine two room pub the probability is that the bar will be to the left or right of the entrance so that the serving area covers both rooms. Isn't bar more of an American term?

[sheffield hatter]

...it says micropub on the window.

That should be good enough for us. (Goes for microbar as well, as far as I'm concerned, regardless of which way the bar counter is orientated.) If the Micropub Association want to dispute it, that would be up to them. And if it turns out that they only sell Bells whisky, dodgy chardonnay and Carling (with a side dish of warmed-over belly pork), we can cover it in the review!

[Aqualung]

That should be good enough for us. (Goes for microbar as well, as far as I'm concerned, regardless of which way the bar counter is orientated.) If the Micropub Association want to dispute it, that would be up to them. And if it turns out that they only sell Bells whisky, dodgy chardonnay and Carling (with a side dish of warmed-over belly pork), we can cover it in the review!

There may be another factor with the Micropub Association. To be a member there is a thirty quid annual subscription. While I can see this would be very useful for a start up micropub is it worth carrying on once you are established? I don't know if you need to be a current subscriber to remain on their list and no I haven't been offered any bribes to mark anywhere as a micropub on this site!!!

[Tris39]

From the Micropub Association website:

What is a micropub?

‘A Micropub is a small freehouse which listens to its customers...’.

With regard to what? Marital advice? Tips on cut-price loft insulation?;)

[Tris39]

That really is nonsense! What about pubs with different entrances? If it's a genuine two room pub the probability is that the bar will be to the left or right of the entrance so that the serving area covers both rooms. Isn't bar more of an American term?

An English term which pre-dates the invention of America.
Since at least the early 14th century, barristers were Called to the Bar of their Inn of Court at a time when they learnt by word of mouth from their masters at the bar.

[Aqualung]

An English term which pre-dates the invention of America.
Since at least the early 14th century, barristers were Called to the Bar of their Inn of Court at a time when they learnt by word of mouth from their masters at the bar.


I appreciate the legal use of the term going way back but I don't recall many places from my younger drinking days called bars. The one exception is the Coronet Bar in Sohos Street which sold Brakspear's beers.

[rpadam]

An English term which pre-dates the invention of America.
Since at least the early 14th century, barristers were Called to the Bar of their Inn of Court at a time when they learnt by word of mouth from their masters at the bar.
"The call to the bar is a legal term of art in most common law jurisdictions where persons must be qualified to be allowed to argue in court on behalf of another party and are then said to have been "called to the bar" or to have received a "call to the bar". "The bar" is now used as a collective noun for barristers, but literally referred to the wooden barrier in old courtrooms, which separated the often crowded public area at the rear from the space near the judges reserved for those having business with the Court. Barristers would sit or stand immediately behind it, facing the judge, and could use it as a table for their briefs." (Wikipedia)

[sheffield hatter]

"The call to the bar is a legal term of art in most common law jurisdictions where persons must be qualified to be allowed to argue in court on behalf of another party and are then said to have been "called to the bar" or to have received a "call to the bar". "The bar" is now used as a collective noun for barristers, but literally referred to the wooden barrier in old courtrooms, which separated the often crowded public area at the rear from the space near the judges reserved for those having business with the Court. Barristers would sit or stand immediately behind it, facing the judge, and could use it as a table for their briefs." (Wikipedia)

No mention of hand pumps...

[Tris39]

"The call to the bar is a legal term of art in most common law jurisdictions where persons must be qualified to be allowed to argue in court on behalf of another party and are then said to have been "called to the bar" or to have received a "call to the bar". "The bar" is now used as a collective noun for barristers, but literally referred to the wooden barrier in old courtrooms, which separated the often crowded public area at the rear from the space near the judges reserved for those having business with the Court. Barristers would sit or stand immediately behind it, facing the judge, and could use it as a table for their briefs." (Wikipedia)

When I was doing my law degree, we were told that pupils would learn the law from their pupil masters at the bar prior to the formalising of legal exams and over a flagon of mead; there may be a shared etymology as some sources claim that 'bar' is derived from an old word for 'room'.
My main point though is that the term 'bar' dates back to at least the 19th century as can be evinced by the number of extant etched glass windows bearing the legends Saloon Bar/Private Bar. Using the term 'bar' as part of UK establishments is a more modern - probably American - affectation though we can rely on our traditional pub names, derived in part due to former levels of illiteracy. Sadly so many of these names are being erased.

[london calling]

Real Ale (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/85778/) : despite the misleading name - it seems to sell keg only - I don't know if this should be listed as a Micro.
They are opening another Real Ale in the Golborne rd.Larger premises so micropub extra? Or plus size micropub?

[london calling]

When I was doing my law degree, we were told that pupils would learn the law from their pupil masters at the bar prior to the formalising of legal exams and over a flagon of mead; there may be a shared etymology as some sources claim that 'bar' is derived from an old word for 'room'.
My main point though is that the term 'bar' dates back to at least the 19th century as can be evinced by the number of extant etched glass windows bearing the legends Saloon Bar/Private Bar. Using the term 'bar' as part of UK establishments is a more modern - probably American - affectation though we can rely on our traditional pub names, derived in part due to former levels of illiteracy. Sadly so many of these names are being erased.
As Tommy Cooper use to say.Man walks into a bar.Goes ouch.It was an iron bar.

[london calling]

They are opening another Real Ale in the Golborne rd.Larger premises so micropub extra? Or plus size micropub?
The original Real Ale is an off licence in Richmond.They only sold bottle conditioned real ales although I did point out to them the FOREIGN MUCK wasn't bottle conditioned .They made allowances for them apparently.

[oldboots]

They are opening another Real Ale in the Golborne rd.Larger premises so micropub extra? Or plus size micropub?

Mini-Pub would be the next logical size up and of course nano-Pub the next size down, possibly this one would qualify as a nano-Pub Boatmans Tavern (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/75961/)

[Mobyduck]

Mini-Pub would be the next logical size up and of course nano-Pub the next size down, possibly this one would qualify as a nano-Pub Boatmans Tavern (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/75961/)

One in one out?

[oldboots]

One in one out?

I don't think you can actually go inside, so possibly it's a pico-Pub but not quite small enough to be a femto-Pub


:D

[rpadam]

When I was doing my law degree, we were told that pupils would learn the law from their pupil masters at the bar prior to the formalising of legal exams and over a flagon of mead; there may be a shared etymology as some sources claim that 'bar' is derived from an old word for 'room'.
My main point though is that the term 'bar' dates back to at least the 19th century as can be evinced by the number of extant etched glass windows bearing the legends Saloon Bar/Private Bar. Using the term 'bar' as part of UK establishments is a more modern - probably American - affectation though we can rely on our traditional pub names, derived in part due to former levels of illiteracy. Sadly so many of these names are being erased.
It’s a bit like ships and boats - a pub can contain several bars, but not vice versa?

[london calling]

There is a new micropub or maybe not a micropub opening New Cross tomorrow.The Ale Bar.
They have disqualified themselves by calling it a microbar.
says Real ale and Gin Microbar and performance space. Is this a new category?
They also have a scenic model railway that runs around the bar.Hopefully at high level.
Was in the Ale Bar last night.Not a micropub even if the owner thinks it is.

[Aqualung]

Was in the Ale Bar last night.Not a micropub even if the owner thinks it is.

I've looked at their website and added the What Pub link. It sounds like it's a theatre microbar (rather like the E17 Rose & Crown is a theatre pub). It doesn't sound like a micropub to me so what are your reasons for saying it isn't? I'd still love to visit it if only to see their model railway layout but the late opening is a pain. Maybe I could spend an afternoon in a JDW and then get a bus there.

[london calling]

I've looked at their website and added the What Pub link. It sounds like it's a theatre microbar (rather like the E17 Rose & Crown is a theatre pub). It doesn't sound like a micropub to me so what are your reasons for saying it isn't? I'd still love to visit it if only to see their model railway layout but the late opening is a pain. Maybe I could spend an afternoon in a JDW and then get a bus there.
Just a bar in the basement of a theatre.Pathetic little railway on a table and only half of it working.Very disappointing but 4 beers on at £4 a pint and very good were the two I tried.

[hondo]

https://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/Article/2019/05/20/BeerHeadz-Phil-Ayling-and-Martin-Johnson-big-interview

[Bucking Fastard]

https://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/Article/2019/05/20/BeerHeadz-Phil-Ayling-and-Martin-Johnson-big-interview

Good read ,thanks hondo.

[Aqualung]

https://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/Article/2019/05/20/BeerHeadz-Phil-Ayling-and-Martin-Johnson-big-interview
I notice the Melton Mowbray outlet hasn't been added unless it's awaiting approval.

[sheffield hatter]

I notice the Melton Mowbray outlet hasn't been added unless it's awaiting approval.

Strange, as it opened six months ago. I've added it just now.

I've been meaning to do Melton Mowbray, so I may just go there tomorrow. Or (checking the time) today.

[sheffield hatter]

I've been meaning to do Melton Mowbray, so I may just go there tomorrow. Or (checking the time) today.

...which I did yesterday.

The Anne Of Cleves (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/58953/) was lovely, though the BGM was distracting. BeerHeadZ (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/87754/) was disappointing, perhaps showing what happens when you start a chain rather than the hands on approach of the true micropub. The Half Moon (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/21005/) was on the poor side of average, The Crown (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/20998/) distinctly better. I liked The Noel's Arms (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/21014/), though I'm not sure I could stand all the black paint if I was here for a longer visit. The other micro, The Gas Tap (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/84224/), was only so-so. My final pub of the day, The Boat Inn (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/20989/), was only a brief visit with a train to catch, but would have liked to have stayed longer.

[Mobyduck]

BeerHeadZ[/URL] was disappointing, perhaps showing what happens when you start a chain rather than the hands on approach of the true micropub.
Don't think I've done a BeerHeadz venue , but I make you right Will, Although the Micro pub definition seems to becoming more blurred with time, I think they were intended to be and should be, based on individuality, Chains (although possible - Antic), are not likely to have that difference.

[sheffield hatter]

Although the Micro pub definition seems to becoming more blurred with time, I think they were intended to be and should be, based on individuality, Chains (although possible - Antic), are not likely to have that difference.

Thanks for that Mick. It particularly struck me on the day that Jamie Oliver's chain of Italian retaurants went into administration. His intention when starting the venture may well have been good: use the best ingredients, employ the best staff, pay them well, give customers a great experience. Works a treat. But you need to keep an eye on the business. Two restaurants? OK. Three? Stretching yourself a bit thin - it means you have to start thinking about employing someone you trust to make sure everyone is pulling their weight - any slackers in just one branch tends to detract from the perceived value of the whole enterprise. (There's a chain of three pubs in Sheffield which is still pretty much run by one guy and his wife and it's just about ok - but there's a lot goes on that he is not on top of.) I think BeerHeadZ is at that stage. How much time do the owners, nice guys no doubt, actually spend in the pubs in Melton and Lincoln?

[london calling]

I find micropubs very uncomfortable when they have few customers in them.No music,no atmosphere and everyone can hear your conversation that's if a conversation can get started.

[Brainypool]

I find them a bit hit and miss. If you can find something to latch on to straight away they can brilliant but sometimes they can be a bit awkward (especially when silent). And when it's awkward it's not really comfortable to keep yourself hidden. I usually resort to browsing the provided CAMRA magazine and moving on as swiftly as possible.

[Aqualung]

Strange, as it opened six months ago. I've added it just now.

I've been meaning to do Melton Mowbray, so I may just go there tomorrow. Or (checking the time) today.

Well done for adding that, it is surprising it got overlooked for so long and I include myself in the blame for that! I quite liked MM so may return there especially as the Gas Tap was closed when I visited some time ago. It would be very boring if we all liked the same things equally!
I was surprised to find myself enjoying a lengthy stop in a Brewdog this week. I was with a shareholder so got 10% discount and they also do a 15% daytime discount which meant the prices were roughly the norm for Scotland (JDW excluded!). The beer quality in the CAMRA recommended place was quite honestly pretty poor.

[oldboots]

And a comment here from Boak & Bailey

https://twitter.com/BoakandBailey/status/1132334392758743041


(in Tewkesbury I believe, The Cross House Tavern (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/87610/))

[Real Ale Ray]

...which I did yesterday.

The Anne Of Cleves (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/58953/) was lovely, though the BGM was distracting. BeerHeadZ (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/87754/) was disappointing, perhaps showing what happens when you start a chain rather than the hands on approach of the true micropub. The Half Moon (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/21005/) was on the poor side of average, The Crown (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/20998/) distinctly better. I liked The Noel's Arms (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/21014/), though I'm not sure I could stand all the black paint if I was here for a longer visit. The other micro, The Gas Tap (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/84224/), was only so-so. My final pub of the day, The Boat Inn (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/20989/), was only a brief visit with a train to catch, but would have liked to have stayed longer.

The Noels Arms was closed the day we were there too, which was a Saturday and it was supposed to open at 12pm. We did another check on the way back to the station and no sign of any life at all in the place. Agree the micro was only so-so

[Mobyduck]

I was surprised to find myself enjoying a lengthy stop in a Brewdog this week.

Wow, not a thing you hear every day.

[Aqualung]

Wow, not a thing you hear every day.

With the two discounts the Jet Black Heart Stout came to around £3.67. None of the beer seemed very cold or gassy although there was some murk. It also helped that I was served all pints and bone of that 2/3rd of a pint nonsense. The guests were all Northern Monk but I preferred Brewdog overall, Indi Pale excepted which is a bog standard pedestrian pale. It was the Perth one which is only the size of a larger micropub and much better than the Cardiff one. The Green Room which is the local CAMRA POTY was horrible in comparison.

[london calling]

I find them a bit hit and miss. If you can find something to latch on to straight away they can brilliant but sometimes they can be a bit awkward (especially when silent). And when it's awkward it's not really comfortable to keep yourself hidden. I usually resort to browsing the provided CAMRA magazine and moving on as swiftly as possible.
Agree with you.Have left a couple of times even though there were a few beers I wanted to try.

[NickDavies]

I find micropubs very uncomfortable when they have few customers in them.No music,no atmosphere and everyone can hear your conversation that's if a conversation can get started.

And you get the "we don't like tossers who look at their phone" brigade. Best bet is to go outside if that's possible, and leave them to be all judgy about people who look at their phone (almost) out of earshot. That's if they're not having some ugly brexit related conversation.

[Aqualung]

And you get the "we don't like tossers who look at their phone" brigade.

Moi?????

[NickDavies]

Moi?????

Present company excepted.

[RealAleRobUK]

I find micropubs very uncomfortable when they have few customers in them.No music,no atmosphere and everyone can hear your conversation that's if a conversation can get started.


I find them a bit hit and miss. If you can find something to latch on to straight away they can brilliant but sometimes they can be a bit awkward (especially when silent). And when it's awkward it's not really comfortable to keep yourself hidden. I usually resort to browsing the provided CAMRA magazine and moving on as swiftly as possible.

Oh, I'm glad I am not alone in this! I think you have to be a regular in a micro pub to feel properly at home. I love the idea behind them and they usually do well looked after real ale for a sensible price, but sometimes I'm an antisocial bugger and just want a drink in a quiet corner in peace without standing out like a sore thumb.

[london calling]

Oh, I'm glad I am not alone in this! I think you have to be a regular in a micro pub to feel properly at home. I love the idea behind them and they usually do well looked after real ale for a sensible price, but sometimes I'm an antisocial bugger and just want a drink in a quiet corner in peace without standing out like a sore thumb.
Neither of my two local micros charge a sensible price.

[RealAleRobUK]

Neither of my two local micros charge a sensible price.

Perhaps the difference is I'm up north! :D

[london calling]

Perhaps the difference is I'm up north! :D

The third closest to my house the Hop and Vine had on last night
a 4 % beer at £4.30
a 4 % beer at £4.40
a 3.5% beer at £4.40
all cask
are you tempted by those prices.

[Tris39]

The third closest to my house the Hop and Vine had on last night
a 4 % beer at £4.30
a 4 % beer at £4.40
a 3.5% beer at £4.40
all cask
are you tempted by those prices.

I wouldn't be tempted by those prices but they're not bad for London and if I had to visit your local, I may gain a little in savings but I'd lose as much in travel. Was in the Charles Lamb last night and enjoyed some Hophead on good form at £4.20 which isn't bad, especially for N1.

[Mobyduck]

Was in the Charles Lamb last night and enjoyed some Hophead on good form at £4.20 which isn't bad, especially for N1.
Not bad at all compared to the £ 4.70 I paid for a pint of Hophead in Esher recently.

[RealAleRobUK]

The third closest to my house the Hop and Vine had on last night
a 4 % beer at £4.30
a 4 % beer at £4.40
a 3.5% beer at £4.40
all cask
are you tempted by those prices.

£3 a pint in my nearest micro pub, beer is always spot on. To be fair, I haven't been for a year or so though, so they may have crept up a bit since then.

The £4+ pint is becoming quite common up here in Manchester though, especially in the city centre.

[Rex_Rattus]

Aah… the £4 pint. That takes me back...

[london calling]

Aah… the £4 pint. That takes me back...

LOL

[london calling]

I wouldn't be tempted by those prices but they're not bad for London and if I had to visit your local, I may gain a little in savings but I'd lose as much in travel. Was in the Charles Lamb last night and enjoyed some Hophead on good form at £4.20 which isn't bad, especially for N1.
Now that is reasonable.What annoys me is the overheads for that pub are massive whereas the micropubs near me are just basic shop conversions and should be able to sell beer cheaper than conventional pubs.

[london calling]

Not bad at all compared to the £ 4.70 I paid for a pint of Hophead in Esher recently.
Esher is well expensive.Cartel?

[Aqualung]

The SE London micropubs are much more reasonably priced than the West London ones especially if they do CAMRA discount. I went to a former CAMRA POTY in St Helens this week and was only paying pennies more than the JDW opposite Lime Street Station. The RJB JDW is £2.49 a pint which is 40p a pint dearer than the two E11 ones and the Cricketers was £2.60 and £2.70 including 20p CAMRA discount. I don't see the point in wasting money on overpriced London pubs most of which are rubbish anyway.

[Brainypool]

The SE London micropubs are much more reasonably priced than the West London ones especially if they do CAMRA discount. I went to a former CAMRA POTY in St Helens this week and was only paying pennies more than the JDW opposite Lime Street Station. The RJB JDW is £2.49 a pint which is 30p a pint dearer than the two E11 ones and the Cricketers was £2.60 and £2.70 including 20p CAMRA discount. I don't see the point in wasting money on overpriced London pubs most of which are rubbish anyway.

There is also the Spoons-like Amber Taverns chain who are increasingly beating JDWs on price and atmosphere. Also northern community pub operator Bravo Inns still keeps real ale at £2 a pint in many of its pubs. I don’t think they have been mentioned on here before.

[london calling]

The SE London micropubs are much more reasonably priced than the West London ones especially if they do CAMRA discount. I went to a former CAMRA POTY in St Helens this week and was only paying pennies more than the JDW opposite Lime Street Station. The RJB JDW is £2.49 a pint which is 30p a pint dearer than the two E11 ones and the Cricketers was £2.60 and £2.70 including 20p CAMRA discount. I don't see the point in wasting money on overpriced London pubs most of which are rubbish anyway.

Add your train fare and it would be cheaper drinking in London rubbish pubs.
We may pay more for beer in London but by and large we get paid better wages so it evens out.Pensioners obviously get no benefit.

[Aqualung]

There is also the Spoons-like Amber Taverns chain who are increasingly beating JDWs on price and atmosphere.
In my experience they sell crap beer from the Marston stable At least if the beer choice in a JDW is crap which it often is there are affordable other options.

As for atmosphere, the one in Macclesfield had TVs everywhere showing sport with the sound on. This is NOT a pub atmosphere and never has been. You might just as well visit someone's house rather than go to places like this.

[Aqualung]

Add your train fare and it would be cheaper drinking in London rubbish pubs.
We may pay more for beer in London but by and large we get paid better wages so it evens out.Pensioners obviously get no benefit.

This isn't true if you exclude JDW. With an advance fare of £5.60 EW to Wolverhampton I can easily save the train fare over favoured London suburb pubs and if it's West or Inner London I'm in pocket. It's more of a motivation that most London pubs are complete rubbish. The trouble is that my knees are shot to pieces so day trips have become just too difficult.

[Brainypool]

In my experience they sell crap beer from the Marston stable At least if the beer choice in a JDW is crap which it often is there are affordable other options.

I don’t think this is true? Though perhaps they are more variable than I thought. The one in Wigan is known for actually selling more local beers than the Spoons up the road and similar in Lancaster where they had a healthy relationship with Cross Bay and Lancaster.

Generally agree about the sport but personally I often prefer TV at an acceptable volume to the awkward and stuffy atmosphere you can get in some real ale or micropubs. It’s each to their own on that I suppose.

[rpadam]

It’s each to their own on that I suppose.
Exactly! It would be really boring if all micro-pubs (or pubs generally) were similar - even if that happened to coincide with one's personal taste - and you can't truly appreciate a gem unless you also encounter some manure on route...

[Brainypool]

The Taps On The Green (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/18902/), formerly Cross Keys in Carnforth is being cut in half and converted to a micropub. According to the locals it is being boycotted by the council estate it serves after announcing it is removing the TV and not selling lager!

[RealAleRobUK]

The Taps On The Green (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/18902/), formerly Cross Keys in Carnforth is being cut in half and converted to a micropub. According to the locals it is being boycotted by the council estate it serves after announcing it is removing the TV and not selling lager!

I'm sure the new owners will be breathing a sigh of relief. :D

[Quinno]

Bumping this one as I've just subbed reviews for The Blue Boar (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/84554/) and The Tap & Barrel (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/85574/)

Both are proclaimed as micropubs in most quarters.

The Blue Boar certainly doesn't strike me as a micro in any meaningful way beyond it being an independent cask outlet. It's about as micropub as the Euston Tap.

The Tap & Barrel is at least in a converted modern unit but is fairly pubby with piped music, a wine list and child-friendly.

I'm not proposing we scrap the micropub flag or list because I can't be arsed with that argument but I do wonder whether the term is now so vague as to be useless.

[sheffield hatter]

I do wonder whether the term is now so vague as to be useless.

You could be right.

The Micropub association (http://www.micropubassociation.co.uk/) lists 373 such pubs. Pubs Galore lists 879 (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pub-features/micropubs/).

[Quinno]

You could be right.

The Micropub association (http://www.micropubassociation.co.uk/) lists 373 such pubs. Pubs Galore lists 879 (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pub-features/micropubs/).

http://www.micropubassociation.co.uk/join/

Does anyone ask questions once you've supplied the lolly to their account...? Might be tempted to add a random pub and find out...

[Mobyduck]

The lines have been greatly blurred by craft bars, bottle shops and taprooms plus hybrids of all.

[Tris39]

It's about as micropub as the Euston Tap.

Being able to see someone taking a pee must be a consideration.


Might be tempted to add a random pub and find out...

Good point - and fifteen quid if you aren't already a member...

[ETA]

...I do wonder whether the term is now so vague as to be useless.

I do feel inclined to agree with you.

[Wittenden]

You could be right.

The Micropub association (http://www.micropubassociation.co.uk/) lists 373 such pubs. Pubs Galore lists 879 (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pub-features/micropubs/).

Micropub association website is fairly useless-this venue is not listed-I patronise on a weekly basis Larkins' Alehouse (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/85780/) , and a number are shut.
Yes, you know one when you see one.

[Tris39]

Micropub association website is fairly useless-this venue is not listed-I patronise on a weekly basis Larkins' Alehouse (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/85780/) , and a number are shut.
Yes, you know one when you see one.

It may not be listed if the owner hasn't coughed up the £15 to join the club; there are also lots of duplicates and I think even triplicates. As you said, you know one when you see one.

[Mobyduck]

As you said, you know one when you see one.

A bit like craft beer.

[Tris39]

A bit like craft beer.

:D:D:D You know it when you get the bill.