Turtle Bay - should they be listed?

[Quinno]

Simple question - a glut of Turtle Bays have been put in the queue to add to the site. Should they be added?

I have never been in one, but I certainly have never heard them being referred to as a drinking venue before.

I don't see the point in listing restaurants that happen to have a bar where, if you were weird (or mad) you could simply have a drink in (eg Miller & Carter, Cafe Rouge).

Thoughts.

[sheffield hatter]

Simple question - a glut of Turtle Bays have been put in the queue to add to the site. Should they be added?

I have never been in one, but I certainly have never heard them being referred to as a drinking venue before.

I don't see the point in listing restaurants that happen to have a bar where, if you were weird (or mad) you could simply have a drink in (eg Miller & Carter, Cafe Rouge).

Thoughts.

Miller & Carter tend to be out of town roadside pubs that have been converted to the steakhouse model, and as I understand it they do still function as pubs rather than restaurants, though I'm happy to be corrected. (As a vegetarian, I have litlle inclination to go in to find out for myself.) As such, are they not already listed on the site, so it's a matter of whether the conversion to M&C justifies changing their status to "closed"? I would say not, on the whole, but I wouldn't man the barricades if a contrary view became apparent.

Cafe Rouge and Turtle Bay on the other hand are usually (always?) town centre bar/bistro/cafe/restaurant places, and I can't understand why they are on this site. Man the barricades!

[Real Ale Ray]

Simple question - a glut of Turtle Bays have been put in the queue to add to the site. Should they be added?

I have never been in one, but I certainly have never heard them being referred to as a drinking venue before.

I don't see the point in listing restaurants that happen to have a bar where, if you were weird (or mad) you could simply have a drink in (eg Miller & Carter, Cafe Rouge).

Thoughts.

No! Don't see why these and also drinking venues that double up as clubs are on the site. Can't see any of us ticking these off at 1am...

[oldboots]

Pretty much agree with what's been said, however I guess a line needs drawing. Where does the recent fad for pub themed restaurants stand in this? I mean particularly the rash of new builds from Marstons and Greene King usually called the Xxxx Farm or some such tosh, or indeed the Harvester evil that spawned them? Should we move from the Camra like thought that if you can go in and buy a drink without buying anything else then it's OK and go to the other extreme of "it must be wet led to qualify"?

Personally I go on gut feeling depending on what's being served and how welcome I am as a casual drinker.

[Mobyduck]

Yes ,agree with the above thoughts, but upon drawing a line, there will always be a grey area somewhere.

[ROBCamra]

I think they're a pile of crap as drinking establishments and I personally am not going to be approving them, although others may want to

However I have been in one in Manchester and there were people drinking cocktails and not eating and I could have had a Red Stripe if I'd have wanted one.

The same applies to all Café Rouge, Gusto, Frankie & Bennys, Chiquito and all the other crap the "photographers" want putting on the site so they can get another tick on their numbers.:mad:

[Brainypool]

Frankie & Bennys is the really ridiculous one, how they could possibly be categorised as a 'pub' is beyond me!

As for Turtle Bay, they do stay open late with people out for drinks in my experience. I can just about tolerate listing places like that, or anywhere else you would not feel uncomfortable just ordering a beer.

[Delboy20]

So glad I have opened up this debate again!!
I am the one that has added the "glut" of Turtle Bays. 7 to be exact. I was adding a micropub somewhere and I noticed that the turtle bay close to it wasn't listed so I added it to the other 30 or so that are already on the site.
I had a bit of spare time so I checked which other ones weren't listed and added them.
Some of the Turtle bays already listed have reviews (by some of our regular users) so I didn't see a problem listing the others.
Personally I have visited a couple as they qualify by my criteria as "pubs" If I can go in for a beer without having to pay or buy a meal. I am not the biggest fan but they have their place and suit some people.
There are much worse places and the 2 I have been in are pleasant enough.
If you don't want to go in you don't have to and if the photographers want to up their numbers let them!
I see no reason they shouldn't be listed - then it is up to the individual.

[oldboots]

So glad I have opened up this debate again!!


Yes I think we're all very grateful to you :moremad:.

There's also the vexed question of poxy wine bars.

And don't get me started on crap photos, I sometimes think there's a few photographers competing to post the worst one possible not to mention the chap whose finger usually appears top left or the two with the filthy phone or camera lens.

[Real Ale Ray]

Interesting debate this one - is it Pubs Galore or Pubs/Restaurants Galore :evilgrin:

[Delboy20]

You tell me:D

In my book if I can go in for a beer it can be listed on here.

Is a bottle shop / off licence with a tiny counter selling beer a pub?

[Rex_Rattus]

I had never heard of Turtle Bays in this context - I thought it was a place in the British Virgin Islands - so thank you all for enhancing my education!

Personally I'm not very fussed either way really but the minuses are that it creates extra work for the dwarves, and can add to the clutter of an area with "non-pubs". How often have you looked at the map of an area and seen lots of green blobs and where closer scrutiny reveals only a couple of what we all would regard as real pubs? My only real experience is with the Miller & Carter branding, where my local one is still very much a pub, with a fairly large area - say the size of an average saloon bar - plus the historic Dick Turpin bar, which is available to those just wanting a drink. Like always, we don't really have any hard and fast rules on this. I guess we'll have this debate again in a year or two.

[Delboy20]

I take your point regarding the Green blobs but surely the more blobs the better!
I am quite happy to decide which blobs I visit but I would rather have that choice.

[Pangolin]

What I enjoy most about visiting pubs (apart from the beer of course) is the infinite variety, from ancient stone-built country inns to high tech city bars, and from the exceptional to the execrable. I think it would be very wrong to exclude any category because they don't conform to an ideal, and there will always be grey areas around any definition wherever you try to draw the line.

I have no great problem with listing Turtle Bay-type establishments where people do genuinely go for a drink by choice (no accounting for taste). I would suggest that it is more useful to have questionable ones listed, with suitable comments so that you know how useful they are to the average drinker and can make your own decision about whether you wish to patronise them or not.

[Quinno]

So glad I have opened up this debate again!!
I am the one that has added the "glut" of Turtle Bays. 7 to be exact..

Just to be clear, I wasn't having a pop at you personally - I did wonder whether to say it was you in the original post, but thought that really would sound like I was having a go! :)

But it is something I think we need to sort out once and for all, as the conversation/debate has happened many times without any real resolution. And as more of these places appear, the issue just gets bigger and more vexed. Ultimately the decision lies with Snow White, but the following comment is very prescient;


the minuses are that it creates extra work for the dwarves, and can add to the clutter of an area with "non-pubs".

Perhaps it's time to run some polls to establish where the line is, and then Snow White can make a decision based on that in March at the get-together. A compromise could be that there is a filter to switch off pubs with a new 'restaurant' label maybe...but that's a Snow White job of course, which may well not be practical for whatever reasons (and I can already hear cries from those who have other site enhancements they'd wish to see...)

Give me a couple of hours and I'll try and put up a poll (or polls) and we'll see what we get.

[Tris39]

I don't think such institutions should be listed and regret adding the few that I did early on as the website is called Pubs Galore not Bars Galore.

Mind you, I'm not sure places such as The Oak W12 (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/63473/) qualify as a pub anymore. Yes, you can get foreign lager but you can only sit at the bar or outside in the cold. I may as well buy a can and stand on the pavement next to the patio for all the similarity.

[NickDavies]

Oh dear. If you go in a Turtle Bay at a mealtime you can sit down at a table with a pint of Stripe and pay up and leave if that's what you want to do. If you go in the ancient stone-built Red Lion at a mealtime you can buy a pint of Old Snot Gobbler but will have to stand in the rain to drink it because all the tables are reserved.

I know what I'd rather do. I've never liked drinking, or indeed eating, standing up.

Which should exist on PG?

[Blackthorn]

You’re never going to satisfy everybody. My view has always been that if it’s wet led and has at least one “thing” on tap, then it warrants inclusion. So that would exclude Cafe Rouge and other places that are basically restaurants, but I have included the odd cocktail bar and such like as long as you can still get a pint of something in there. On the other hand, that won’t be real ale, and some places that are basically restaurants might well have a greater range on tap and may even include a real ale or two, so even my own argument doesn’t stack up!

And then there is what may be considered a proper pub, but has every table reserved for diners, The Castle Inn (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/65263/) being a recent case in point, although there have certainly been others.

How about instead of all green blobs on the map, we have different colours depending on whether it’s a “real” pub or not. Should keep Dave busy for a bit. ������

[Dave M]

Simple question - a glut of Turtle Bays have been put in the queue to add to the site. Should they be added?

I have never been in one, but I certainly have never heard them being referred to as a drinking venue before.

I've been in the Bristol one twice, both times to drink and not eat. As far as I could tell the right hand side was devoted more to diners and the left to drinkers. There were far more drinkers than diners from what I saw.

Pretty much everyone was drinking cocktails and I get the impression the drink range didn't go much beyond that but for me still a clear cut drinking establishment. Unlike F&Bs, Cafe Rouge that probably shouldn't be on here and I do regret approving the first few of those.

So difficult to define difference between pub and restaurant though. For example, if you enter and are greeted by waiting staff who take you to a table and give you food menus it is probably a restaurant even if you can just stay for drinks, however I've been to new build Marstons & GK pubs (as OB mentions) that are exactly like that and so it all becomes very blurred.


A compromise could be that there is a filter to switch off pubs with a new 'restaurant' label maybe...but that's a Snow White job of course, which may well not be practical for whatever reasons (and I can already hear cries from those who have other site enhancements they'd wish to see...)
This has been suggested to me more than once before at crawls. I guess the question is would it satisfy people? In theory it wouldn't be too difficult, but we would then have the problem of defining which places get the restaurant tag... :eek:

[Quinno]

Poll is up - http://forums.pubsgalore.co.uk/showthread.php?29111-Which-of-the-following-should-NOT-appear-on-Pubs-Galore-main-listings

And yes I just realised I missed Frankie & Benny's off (file under Cafe Rouge??) :p

[NickDavies]

This has been suggested to me more than once before at crawls. I guess the question is would it satisfy people? In theory it wouldn't be too difficult, but we would then have the problem of defining which places get the restaurant tag... :eek:

OK how would you deal with this place? (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/37049/)

Q went in one day and foud a pub he loved. I went in the next day and walked away from a restaurant.

If you're interested despite best efforts I haven't been in since. It's hours are very limited to food times, even at weekends.

[Delboy20]

What I enjoy most about visiting pubs (apart from the beer of course) is the infinite variety, from ancient stone-built country inns to high tech city bars, and from the exceptional to the execrable. I think it would be very wrong to exclude any category because they don't conform to an ideal, and there will always be grey areas around any definition wherever you try to draw the line.

I have no great problem with listing Turtle Bay-type establishments where people do genuinely go for a drink by choice (no accounting for taste). I would suggest that it is more useful to have questionable ones listed, with suitable comments so that you know how useful they are to the average drinker and can make your own decision about whether you wish to patronise them or not.

Well said.

[Delboy20]

Just to be clear, I wasn't having a pop at you personally - I did wonder whether to say it was you in the original post, but thought that really would sound like I was having a go! :)



No problems this end:D

That is why I was quick to "own up" as it were.

Just to set the record straight, I am no great lover of these bars (nor do I work for them:evilgrin:)

I just like freedom of choice and variety and oppose dictatorship.

List the "pubs" and we can all decide if we want to visit them.

[Dave M]

I have no great problem with listing Turtle Bay-type establishments where people do genuinely go for a drink by choice (no accounting for taste).

Well yes, this actually helped my thinking.

My policy was always if you theoretically can go in and just have an alcoholic drink without needing to order food then it can be listed.

Now I'm thinking of chains that I've been in for just a drink. Turtle Bay, Chiquitos, Las Iguanas - in those I was able to go to a bar, order a drink without the need of waiting staff and drink it somewhere not set out for food. I wouldn't be able to do that in Frankie & Bennys or Cafe Rouge.


OK how would you deal with this place? (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/37049/)

Q went in one day and foud a pub he loved. I went in the next day and walked away from a restaurant.

Interesting one, I notice on their Facebook page they list themselves as a restaurant. Maybe that would be a criteria for tagging, if the venue themselves think they're a restaurant that seems fair enough.

[rpadam]

List the "pubs" and we can all decide if we want to visit them.
Agreed!

[rpadam]

Well yes, this actually helped my thinking.

My policy was always if you theoretically can go in and just have an alcoholic drink without needing to order food then it can be listed.

Now I'm thinking of chains that I've been in for just a drink. Turtle Bay, Chiquitos, Las Iguanas - in those I was able to go to a bar, order a drink without the need of waiting staff and drink it somewhere not set out for food. I wouldn't be able to do that in Frankie & Bennys or Cafe Rouge.

Interesting one, I notice on their Facebook page they list themselves as a restaurant. Maybe that would be a criteria for tagging, if the venue themselves think they're a restaurant that seems fair enough.
Not sure about Frankie & Bennys, but the few Cafe Rouges I’ve reviewed have all let customers in for just a drink without needing to buy a meal.

[NickDavies]

Well yes, this actually helped my thinking.

My policy was always if you theoretically can go in and just have an alcoholic drink without needing to order food then it can be listed.

Now I'm thinking of chains that I've been in for just a drink. Turtle Bay, Chiquitos, Las Iguanas - in those I was able to go to a bar, order a drink without the need of waiting staff and drink it somewhere not set out for food. I wouldn't be able to do that in Frankie & Bennys or Cafe Rouge.



Interesting one, I notice on their Facebook page they list themselves as a restaurant. Maybe that would be a criteria for tagging, if the venue themselves think they're a restaurant that seems fair enough.

Possibly...but FB pages tend to be up to the people on the ground rather than corporate grown ups. Sometimes, I suspect, it's left to teenage offspring. FB tags are many and varied and based on US mores, and you see Yer Genuine Olde Worlde Pubbe tagged as something silly like Modern English Restaurant despite the food offering rarely diverging from a packet of Walker's.

[sheffield hatter]

I guess we'll have this debate again in a year or two.

:D

[sheffield hatter]

Cafe Rouge and Turtle Bay on the other hand are usually (always?) town centre bar/bistro/cafe/restaurant places, and I can't understand why they are on this site. Man the barricades!

Having read the points made by other contributors to this debate, I have changed my mind and have voted to retain all such "pubs" on the site.


List the "pubs" and we can all decide if we want to visit them.

What he said.



I'm inclined to agree that there should be a way of distinguishing them from "proper" pubs though. If only someone could write a review...

Here's a thought. What about a generic review of the chain which could be applied to all the outlets listed? Saves all that travelling about the country doing one more Slug & Lettuce, etc. Just review the whole caboodle in one representative visit.

[bcfczuluarmy]

The Cafe Rouge's listed on here in my areas covered have never been a problem. I've not added any not listed due to the topic of this thread, or done them yet may get round to them one day but will keep on my own spread sheet. Turtle Bay fine a real ale drinker won't go near them but a ticker like me will as there is no issues to having drinks in them and as Blackthorn states they have pumps. Adding bottle only places is daft regardless of being real ale/craft. The internet and supermarkets fill this sector IMHO.

We are old enough to make your mind up of where to go and some CAMRA branches have them listed so if they do then an elitist bunch of real ale drinkers accept them as establishments for Tom, Dick and Harry to rock up to and get a drink.

[Delboy20]

Common sense has prevailed and the now legendary "Turtles" are approved!

Just remember that you don't have to go in them if you don't want to:evilgrin:

On a side note I have never been in a Café Rouge but I might now just to see if they really are as bad as everyone seems to think!

[rpadam]

On a side note I have never been in a Café Rouge but I might now just to see if they really are as bad as everyone seems to think!
Don't get your hopes up (but do leave a review)!

[sheffield hatter]

I have never been in a Café Rouge but I might now just to see if they really are as bad as everyone seems to think!

Good luck!

Don't forget to leave a note for the rescue team, in case you're not back within 24 hours.

[AlanH]

I had never heard of Turtle Bays in this context - I thought it was a place in the British Virgin Islands - so thank you all for enhancing my education!

Personally I'm not very fussed either way really but the minuses are that it can add to the clutter of an area with "non-pubs". How often have you looked at the map of an area and seen lots of green blobs and where closer scrutiny reveals only a couple of what we all would regard as real pubs?

Dave's Android Real Ale maps cuts down the clutter with only the green blobs being Real Ale, so I ignore the keg red blobs, which takes out most of the Gastro/Restaurant types.
My theory then is, if some of the Real green blobs are "Gastro" type places, they are more likely to accept drinkers to keep the Real Ale sales moving.

[Tris39]

I think they're a pile of crap as drinking establishments and I personally am not going to be approving them, although others may want to

However I have been in one in Manchester and there were people drinking cocktails and not eating and I could have had a Red Stripe if I'd have wanted one.

The same applies to all Café Rouge, Gusto, Frankie & Bennys, Chiquito and all the other crap the "photographers" want putting on the site so they can get another tick on their numbers.:mad:

Another reason for getting rid of all this guff is the length of an area's list and its accuracy. It's a real boon to have access to a publication such as the London Drinker to carry out updates such as a venue's open/closed status as well as name changes. But as so many of these outlets aren't listed in the LD, there's no reasonable way of maintaining an accurate list which just grows longer and becomes ever more tedious to navigate. It also militates against public confidence in the accuracy of out data, IMHO.

[Aqualung]

The trouble with singling out chains is that some of the Harvesters, Toby Carverys and ones tied to a Premier Inn were originally pubs and some are still pubs that do food. I've never baan to a Café Rouge but I assume it is a chain of French based restaurants or a Turtle Bay and judging by the Walthamstow one is a chain of Caribbean Restaurants. I've never been to a Miller & Carter although I'm pretty sure I once had a pint of Directors in the Robin Hood in Epping Forest which gave the name to the roundabout.
I'll only add a pub (or a club which is another topic) if I'm confident it's a drinking establishment, not a chain restaurant and has something like normal pub hours whatever they are (ie not a night club). I wouldn't like to see brewery taps excluded due to limited opening hours but definitely night clubs where you probably have to pay to get in after a certain time or if you're male.

[Pangolin]

Quite a few Cafés Rouges are former pubs, for example this one (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/81952/) used to be the Orleans Arms, the building is still recognisably a pub and it attracts drinkers from the nearby Sandown Park racecourse. This one in Weybridge (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/73360/) used to be the Duke of York, although it is less recognisable. Most have keg Stella and some decent bottles and people do go in them just to drink, although I doubt that I would by choice. A lot of Miller & Carters are also in former pubs, and usually retain a proper drinking area, while the same could be said for most Harvesters, Beefeaters, Hungry Horses and the like. The mere presence of a 'family restaurant' does not invalidate the rest of the building.

[NickDavies]

A lot of Miller & Carters are also in former pubs, and usually retain a proper drinking area, while the same could be said for most Harvesters, Beefeaters, Hungry Horses and the like. The mere presence of a 'family restaurant' does not invalidate the rest of the building.

Exactly. What's the difference between a Harvester with a "Please wait to be seated" sign sealing off three-quarters of the space and Ye Olde Collarr and Studde with exactly the same arrangement.

Maybe it's just that the former only sells John Smith's Smooth Crap yet the latter has six pumps of stuff with twigs and bits of beak in it? Far worse than both are places where often the only seating for drinkers is outside (http://forums.pubsgalore.co.uk/showthread.php?949-Pub-annoyances-834&p=47266&viewfull=1#post47266).

If there is a line to be drawn maybe it's at places like Indian and Chinese restaurants which may well have 'bar' or 'lounge' in the title but the reality is a few seats where you can have a quick half while waiting for your takeaway?

[Aqualung]

If there is a line to be drawn maybe it's at places like Indian and Chinese restaurants which may well have 'bar' or 'lounge' in the title but the reality is a few seats where you can have a quick half while waitng for your takeaway?

Surely the current guidelines cover this? Presumably you are only offered a drink if you're getting food. There are loads of places that describe themselves as "Bar & Restaurant" or "Lounge and Bar" and I can't tell from the outside if you can go in them and just have a drink. As a result I don't bother adding them and is why I won't be adding the Walthamstow Turtle Bay anytime soon. What's going to happen if the Golden Arches suddenly decide to do booze that can be bought without a meal?

[NickDavies]

What's going to happen if the Golden Arches suddenly decide to do booze that can be bought without a meal?

Thankfully (for the sake of this discussion, not in a general sense) we inhabit a culture where any inkling of that will cause a moral outrage and Questions In The House. Remember the hoohah over the JDW at Beaconsfield Services.

In other parts of the world you'll spot a draught beer tap in all manner of, to us, unlikely places. Recently I found myself in a Spanish hospital cafeteria and enjoyed a very pleasant caña while waiting for someone to be patched up.

[Aqualung]

1Remember the hoohah over the JDW at Beaconsfield Services.

I remember it well and funny how you now never seem to hear anything about it. I also remember the rumpus about 24 hour pub licencing which doesn't actually exist.

[Delboy20]

As a result I don't bother adding them and is why I won't be adding the Walthamstow Turtle Bay anytime soon.

Too late ….Turtle Bay (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/87435/):whistle::whistle::whistle:

[Aqualung]

Too late ….Turtle Bay (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/87435/):whistle::whistle::whistle:

Ayatollah Aqualung does not approve!

[Mobyduck]

Too late ….Turtle Bay (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/87435/):whistle::whistle::whistle:

I won't be reviewing it anytime soon.

[Farway]

Too late ….Turtle Bay (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/87435/):whistle::whistle::whistle:

No photo yet:evilgrin:

[Bucking Fastard]

Too late ….Turtle Bay (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/87435/):whistle::whistle::whistle:

At least it's not a Turtles Head ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geAjOVEzti4

[ETA]

At least it's not a Turtles Head ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geAjOVEzti4

That would be a crowning achievement.