View Full Version : Hotels on PuG
ROBCamra
17-06-2010, 08:57
Maybe it's just me, but.....
On PuG we seem to have a number of people who constantly take photo's of places that aren't pubs and then request that the place be added to PuG.
I know we've been here before but why would you want places like the Castleton Hotel or Norton Grange in Castleton on here?
They're not pubs, they're residential hotels where you can only get a drink if you stay there. Even if you go for a meal you can only use the restaurant bar part not the whole bar.
Personally I don't think it's good for a site called Pubs Galore to give you a list that is mainly hotels when you search for pubs in an area. :moremad:
Opinions anyone?
NickDavies
17-06-2010, 09:04
I would say that anywhere you can walk in off the street and buy a drink without having to do anything else, like eat a meal, stay there, be a member or pay an admission fee is fine.
I would say that anywhere you can walk in off the street and buy a drink without having to do anything else, like eat a meal, stay there, be a member or pay an admission fee is fine.
Agreed.
ROBCamra
17-06-2010, 09:16
I would say that anywhere you can walk in off the street and buy a drink without having to do anything else, like eat a meal, stay there, be a member or pay an admission fee is fine.
But that's my exact point, you can't in quite a lot of hotels and there are loads on here like that.
Should every Novotel for example be on PuG as they have a bar. Personally I don't think so, but maybe I'm just a bit grumpy this morning. :o
Ok we have been through this a lot of times, and it just gets mired. The 2 Hotels you just flagged to me I have deleted.
The lie is in your question however:
Maybe it's just me, but.....
On PuG we seem to have a number of people who constantly take photo's of places that aren't pubs and then request that the place be added to PuG.
...
Personally I don't think it's good for a site called Pubs Galore to give you a list that is mainly hotels when you search for pubs in an area. :moremad:
Opinions anyone?
If there are a number of people then clearly it is useful to a number of people. We have also long established that the word pub doesn't work, we are not going to rename the site.
As to the members club argument, I keep on returning to the Royal Legion as an example of where that won't work for me. Unless someone has a directory of pubs this will continue having to be handled on a case by case basis, with a long term ambition of trying to make it clearer what sort of pub a place is.
ROBCamra
17-06-2010, 09:28
it is useful to a number of people.
Ok no problem I'll pipe down and not flag any more.
But that's my exact point, you can't in quite a lot of hotels and there are loads on here like that.
Should every Novotel for example be on PuG as they have a bar...
The troubel is (and I know we've explored this issue before) everyone expects something different from their "pub". Personally, I don't count places Apres, Casa, BarNone, VodkaBar etc etc as pubs, but on the rare occasions I am dragged into them I will post a review if they are on the site - I wouldn't suggest them though.
I admit I'm responsible for at least one of the hotels you don't think should be on here, Rob, (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/69688/) but it does conform to the criteria of open access, serving drinks and providing a venue for convivial imbibation.
And ultimately, the choice is the user's - just because a venue is listed here doesn't mean you have to visit it. I do however support your idea that establishments without that open access should either be exlcuded or provide a warning of their status to stop people going there on a fool's errand, expecting to get a drink and not being able to.
I suspect that, like me, grumpiness will recede once that first pint is down the hatch.
Ok no problem I'll pipe down and not flag any more.
Reply in haste, repent at leisure. (a comment for me, not you).
I did delete the 2 hotels you mentioned, I agree, neither looked like something that is useful for anything other than a hotels site.
The problem we have is we want to please as many people as we reasonably can with this site, so contributors of any form should be appreciated. Whilst some of these contributors produce noise in amongst their good contributions; unless we have a firm guideline it is hard to know what to eliminate. It is even harder when there is no way of telling from a name.
The 2 that were deleted were from Wynne Route who I haven't really interacted with apart from doing corrections they submit, but what makes you more trustworthy than them? In the case of the 2 you mentioned I was able to find their web sites and confirm that it was unlikely they had open bars (although not certain). And the pictures were boring unlike the bowling club issue in another thread.
It is a hard call, and I have no problem with it being debated on the issues, I just fear it becoming personal (as I did in the last paragraph ;)). Particularly as we have a lot of users who don't use the forum (fools).
arwkrite
17-06-2010, 09:46
As it has been decide before a bar must be open to all. A review of a chain hotel bar has in the past been useful to me. It has meant at the end of a long drive there was somewhere I could chill out without sitting alone in a room. OK the chances a of real ale were slim but you did not feel like a battery hen for the night.
ROBCamra
17-06-2010, 10:32
but what makes you more trustworthy than them?
Well in these two cases because I've actually visited the places in question.
Some people seem to specialise in "drive by shootings" and "reviews" that say things like "J. W. Lees" which is obvious from the photo anyway.
This makes me suspect that they haven't been in most of the places they suggest.
A good example is Serajo's in Bury. This is/was an Italian Restaurant not a pub/bar. I haven't asked for it to be removed because I haven't been for a while and things may have changed.
I think of it as my personal Quality Control. If I'm not sure I don't add, remove or change. ;)
I don't know who has visited what though, also we have no firm definition of what should be listed and at every attempt to make one fails. I do agree that hotels without public bars don't belong on the list though. As to the JW Lees thing I think it is promotion of the JW Lees Passport trail and is trying to point that out, could be wrong though.
A few of the members have done drive by shootings, most of them don't really come on the forums and don't really leave reviews, they clearly enjoy the site though. It is hard for us to know what is the right thing to do to keep them invested, but I would like pictures of the pubs. It is a pity that they don't chat on here, but I don't think we should accidentally scare them off.
We will delete bad listings where we become aware of them, but equally it is hard to avoid adding them if they are being submitted, particularly by members whose contributions are predominantly good.
Can I just check, is this thread just a vent? (which is fair enough), or an attempt to get some stronger definitions on what is a pub? Any suggestions towards the latter need to take into account how me and Dave can check it.
ROBCamra
17-06-2010, 13:27
Can I just check, is this thread just a vent? (which is fair enough).
Just a vent really as I was in Castleton last night and noticed all the hotel listings obviously from people who haven't been in them. :(
I'm off out for a meal in Manchester tonight with Ms CAMRA, so after a few pints and a nice bottle of red wine the grumpiness will probably subside.
Or maybe not. :D
Well that is fair enough, you did post it in chit-chat so I shouldn't really take it so seriously.
If it helps we have been known to turn the air blue in the office sometimes when looking at the suggestions, still at least when we click the accept button now we can think of you and know we are passing forward the bemusement. :p
Sometimes a pub is actually called xxx Hotel, which maybe it was way back in 30s, times changed but name stayed
Sometimes a pub is actually called xxx Hotel, which maybe it was way back in 30s, times changed but name stayed
Welcome to my hell.
I think the observation is more about adding without confirmation. Trouble is we do lack the guidelines to say what is wrong or right, and I am still stumped on these. I think sometimes it is just going to come down to what shouldn't go on the site, and I am happy to add hotels without public bars to that list (although knowing my luck we are going to find one that is CAMRA listed, seems to happen any time I think there should be an exclusion.
Welcome to my hell.
I think the observation is more about adding without confirmation. Trouble is we do lack the guidelines to say what is wrong or right, and I am still stumped on these. I think sometimes it is just going to come down to what shouldn't go on the site, and I am happy to add hotels without public bars to that list (although knowing my luck we are going to find one that is CAMRA listed, seems to happen any time I think there should be an exclusion.
Welcome to mine, I will have to return to Havant at some time & check out Bear Hotel for public beer access, I need to check out White Hart real ale anyway
Only trouble is Havant is such a pain at times, nothing to really attract anyone there IMO, but as a servant of PuG it is my duty to venture there to sort out Hotel query :cheers:
Reading ROBCamra’s follow up post I think the point being made is more one about adding everything that looks like it has a licence without actually finding out what type of establishment it is. I share that frustration, I see no point in walking past and taking a dozen photos of a hotel, a tapas bar or a restaurant and adding it to the site. Similarly a couple of weeks ago I saw a pub added that I knew had been closed for around 5 years and got quite excited that it had re-opened. However what I found was the pub had been added and marked closed straight away and the photo was simply of a run down building surrounded by construction hoardings.
In respect of hotels I don’t think we can just say they are not allowed, after all one of Manchester’s premier real ale pubs is the Smithfield Hotel. On the other hand I did see a hotel bar locally that one of our prolific photographers had added without a review. The only indication that there was a bar there was a small sign outside so I suspect it was a typical ‘drive by shooting‘. I visited and it was simply a small unmanned bar at the end of the reception desk. I’m not going to ask for it to be removed but I’d hope that anyone actually going in and finding that out wouldn’t add it to the site in the first place.
I’ve added a few hotel bars myself as, working in London, I do find them to be a useful retreat from the maelstrom of City pubs on a Friday night if you just want a quiet pint or a chat with a few mates. I’ve discovered some really nice bars, one of note is the Tempus Bar at the Hotel Russell (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/68185/).
Rex_Rattus
18-06-2010, 21:22
I reckon I'm with Millay on the question of hotels. I've stayed in hotels that have advertised a bar, that turned out to be for residents, and if you wanted a drink you had to root someone out of reception, or the kitchen, or wake up the night porter, to get you a drink. I wouldn't dream of asking for such a place to be added, but unless you went in them to see what the bar was really like you couldn't know for sure that it was not worthy of inclusion. I've also stayed in pubs that provide a few rooms accommodation, and of course they should be included.
ROBCamra
19-06-2010, 08:24
one of note is the Tempus Bar at the Hotel Russell (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/68185/).
I watched the Champions League Final Utd vs Chelsea there. :manutdfc:
Had to drink quite a lot of pricey pints of FP though. :sick:
I watched the Champions League Final Utd vs Chelsea there.
Glad you're not totally against hotels on PuG then ;)
ROBCamra
19-06-2010, 10:39
Glad you're not totally against hotels on PuG then ;)
Only the ones where I can't actually get a drink, FP or not. ;)
Strongers
20-06-2010, 07:46
I think that it is a no brainer that hotels without a public bar should not be on this site, but when they are added they will be routed out by people that visit them over time. I would still rather have all of the pictures that are submitted by these 'drive by shooters' (classic, hats off to whoever coined that phrase) as imo they are just as important as the reviews to build up a idea of what a place is like.
Soup Dragon
20-06-2010, 09:36
I think it is impossible to police what kind of places go onto PG as we all have different view - all you can do is emphasise, through a review, what the focus of a place.
The Bottle n Glass in the Black Country Museum is a pub, but you have to pay an entrance fee to get into the museum - some say it should be counted, others not. Who cares in the long run?, as long as a decent review is made and other PuGers can see if they want to do it, or not. There are a couple of night clubs on for Walsall - i havent been to them, but i put a comment on to the effect they are clubs.
I think it is impossible to police what kind of places go onto PG as we all have different view - all you can do is emphasise, through a review, what the focus of a place.
The Bottle n Glass in the Black Country Museum is a pub, but you have to pay an entrance fee to get into the museum - some say it should be counted, others not. Who cares in the long run?, as long as a decent review is made and other PuGers can see if they want to do it, or not. There are a couple of night clubs on for Walsall - i havent been to them, but i put a comment on to the effect they are clubs.
There is one in Blists Hill Victorian Town museum. Name of it's pub escapes me.. perhaps Oggy will tell you the name of the pub. I had a pint there (I think it was Bass but I could be wrong) couple of years ago.
ROBCamra
20-06-2010, 11:25
There is one in Blists Hill Victorian Town museum. Name of it's pub escapes me.. perhaps Oggy will tell you the name of the pub. I had a pint there (I think it was Bass but I could be wrong) couple of years ago.
I hope you didn't miss out on visiting the All Nations whilst at Blists Hill Hoppy. It's just over the road up a short steep hill.
It was one of only 4 remaining brewpubs before the new wave of brewers came along.
It's a total throwback in time and still excellent.
I hope you didn't miss out on visiting the All Nations whilst at Blists Hill Hoppy. It's just over the road up a short steep hill.
It was one of only 4 remaining brewpubs before the new wave of brewers came along.
It's a total throwback in time and still excellent.
Sadly I visited Blists Hill without knowing All Nations was nearby. :(
I only found out shortly afterwards on PG's pub listings. Oh well there is always next time eh?
I think if the requirement to be classified "pub" is too restrictive regarding hotels, and even semi hotels, like licensed B & Bs is applied too strictly PuG would lose a lot of it's usefulness to casual users
If one only wants pubs with ale or strict criteria, then surely CAMRA will provide this? On the other hand if one is visiting a new location for the first time, then any sort of guide is better than none?
Even the "drive by shootings" are useful IMO, at least a viewer can see the general area and tattiness or otherwise of the pub / hotel. I plead guilty to drive by, or in my case walk by, there is no way I will go into every pub / hotel in Pompey just to review it as suitable for inclusion or not. I have corrected one drive by of another contributor in the past, which must have literally been a drive by, as walking by one would instantly spot it was a converted pub into flats
As many realise I live near Portsmouth, whilst I am sure many hotel bars in the area are open to walk in drinkers and are suitable for PuG, generally I choose not to nominate them, mainly because I have no intention of trying them all, out in fact there is one I have my eye on which I think is now residents only, but as there is one across the road, not on PuG, open to public I have just ignored this, because a visitor would only have to turn around to find a place to drink
Whilst not wishing too much to veer off course, hotels that do NOT allow general public into the bar could also be an attraction to some areas? If you where on some business trip,honeymoon, dirty weekend etc, would you want local chavs to pile in the bar?
oldboots
20-06-2010, 19:56
There is one in Blists Hill Victorian Town museum. Name of it's pub escapes me.. perhaps Oggy will tell you the name of the pub. I had a pint there (I think it was Bass but I could be wrong) couple of years ago.
It is called the "New Inn" and currently serves Banks's Bitter and Mild, I may add it and put on my review and pics. There is also the Sun Inn at Beamish Museum which is in the same position, if we have the Bottle and Glass then we ought to have the other two. Soupy and me discussed this briefly over a couple of MILDS in the B&G on Tuesday and came to the conclusion that they should be on but only in the spirit of the places themselves and being clear about their special case. Considering all three are real pubs selling beer to anyone who crosses the doors unlike some hotels, clubs and bars on PUG I dont see the problem.
Wittenden
20-06-2010, 22:42
It is called the "New Inn" and currently serves Banks's Bitter and Mild, I may add it and put on my review and pics. There is also the Sun Inn at Beamish Museum which is in the same position, if we have the Bottle and Glass then we ought to have the other two. Soupy and me discussed this briefly over a couple of MILDS in the B&G on Tuesday and came to the conclusion that they should be on but only in the spirit of the places themselves and being clear about their special case. Considering all three are real pubs selling beer to anyone who crosses the doors unlike some hotels, clubs and bars on PUG I dont see the problem.
I can't speak for the others, but the Sun Inn at Beamish museum is to all pretence and purposes a pub, albeit with sligtly limited hours and demographic. It was in the 2008 GBG. Beer wasn't bad when we went: Blue Gentian from Wear Valley if I remember right.
I think Soup and a number of others have hit the nail on the head which is that a review can clarify everything, at some point I would like to add some categories to make it clearer, but it would have to make the situation clearer to make it worthwhile.
I have corrected one drive by of another contributor in the past, which must have literally been a drive by, as walking by one would instantly spot it was a converted pub into flats
Some members do this to try and hint to us that a pub is closed, sometimes it even works :). Frequently there are strange and innocent reasons for these bizarenesses.
Millay also mentioned about closed pubs being added, I am actually quite keen for closed pubs to be listed, particularly with the rate they are closing, I would be happy to have reviews and reminiscences added to these listings as well. The adding of pictures showing how they look now I am not sure of, but I can see some value in it.
And going back to the original post I am happy for people to vent on the forum, we are never going to be able to please everyone all of the time, and this is certainly an interesting thread reading everyone's impressions.
Pubsignman
21-06-2010, 13:07
Millay also mentioned about closed pubs being added, I am actually quite keen for closed pubs to be listed, particularly with the rate they are closing, I would be happy to have reviews and reminiscences added to these listings as well. The adding of pictures showing how they look now I am not sure of, but I can see some value in it.
I agree that it's good to document closed pubs as well, but I was a little surprised, when looking through some recently added pubs in Bury St Edmunds, to find a pub that closed back in the 1920's! Is there merit in recording information that goes so far back? I can't imagine we would ever be able to get close to having a comprehensive list of closed pubs on here.
My facetious answer would be what year is the cut-off point. ;)
More realistically though, it doesn't do any harm and presumably the member has done the leg work, you never know when it will be useful.
ROBCamra
21-06-2010, 13:53
And going back to the original post I am happy for people to vent on the forum, we are never going to be able to please everyone all of the time, and this is certainly an interesting thread reading everyone's impressions.
I thought that if I started a "grumpy old sod" type thread that there'd be quite a lot of takers on here.
It's what we do best. :(
Many of us have had lots of experience in putting the world to rights whilst quaffing a beer or two.
Who's going to be next for the "grumpy old sod" title?
Should we have a "grumpy old sod" of the week thread? :moremad:
Can I have the prize for last week? :D:D
Who's going to be next for the "grumpy old sod" title?
Should we have a "grumpy old sod" of the week thread? :moremad:
Can I have the prize for last week? :D:D
No, bu66er off :D:D:D:D
ROBCamra
21-06-2010, 14:27
No, bu66er off :D:D:D:D
:D That's my boy! :D
Is there merit in recording information that goes so far back?
Yes.
I can't imagine we would ever be able to get close to having a comprehensive list of closed pubs on here.
Maybe that wasn't the original reason that the site was set up, but I don't know of any other "pub database" which has the potential to store such an esoteric, and possibly comprehensive, set of data. This could be of great interest to all sorts of people from social historians to future developers (or their opponents) to school children to those with purely a personal interest. We are living in an era of mass pub extinction (pardon the ecological analogy), while many of the people who remember pubs which closed as a result of WW2, 1960s development and 1970s economic hardship are dying without leaving their memories. What better for a historian in (say) 50 years' time to fund our little archive and be able to read our personal recollections of an instituion which no longer exists (as we know it).
Imagine the conversation at the communal lemonade stand in Stafford and Manchester Connurbation Centre if an accurate record isn't kept:
[Great Grandson of RobCAMRA]...so they actually drank real alcoho in the pubs? And took dogs in as well? Ugh!
[Great Grandson of ETA] Yes, Abdul, that was before pets were banned on H&S grounds. And they called them "pub dogs". In fact, my mate Running_Dog is named after the fact that his Great Grandad used to have one.
[GGRC] and they called these "pubs" after mythical beasts?
[GGETA] yeah, like "Pheasant" and - er, what was the real one that went extinct in 2034 - Black Horse, or something.
[GGRC] and your Great Grandad - I mean your biological one, not the state-assigned multicultural CRB-approved local authority appointed one - actually WENT in them???!!!!! Cool!
[GGETA], yeah, though of course we had to make a public apology for it at school. We got away with it by saying he only went to play darts. But I think back then, most men had a "local".
[GGRC] play what?
[GGETA] Darts. It was some sort of game with balls on a beize-covered table and big sticks called "Qs", I think. They used do eat the skin of dead pigs from little plastic packets.
[GGRC] Never - you'll be telling me next they used to watch soccer in there too - before it was outlawed after the embarassment of the 2010 World Cup.
[Great Grandson of Conrad] come on lads, time at the service desk - haven't you got a type 2 eco-communal dwelling to go to? Night Abdul, Night, Maseratti.
[All] Night, Susan-Boris. May the Law in Maastricht be with you...
:D
Well that is definitely in line for post of the month if not ever so far on this forum.
Maldenman
21-06-2010, 23:20
[QUOTE=ROBCamra;15104]I thought that if I started a "grumpy old sod" type thread that there'd be quite a lot of takers on here.
Who's going to be next for the "grumpy old sod" title?
Should we have a "grumpy old sod" of the week thread?
There would be no contest. Some of you haven't met me yet have you.
arwkrite
22-06-2010, 03:16
The lot of you...bunch of bl**dy amateurs .It takes real dedication to be a real grumpy old sod. You can probably do a degree course on the subject but there is nothing like the lifetime on the job training. If you can walk into a pub and find it impossible to get into a conversation with anyone, or the pub cat makes a run for the back door on seeing you, then you have truly made the grade.
Yes, I know its 0415 but its to hot in bed and me diabetes is sending my feet balmy.Nowt on the TV and only babble on the radio.I do find the occasional nocturnal lurker as I ramble round the internet.
runningdog
24-06-2010, 23:07
It takes real dedication to be a real grumpy old sod. If you can walk into a pub and find it impossible to get into a conversation with anyone, or the pub cat makes a run for the back door on seeing you, then you have truly made the grade.
I do find the occasional nocturnal lurker as I ramble round the internet.
Blimey, is it that the time, I guess I'm in trouble again. I like knowing where the craps coming from, it cuts down on surprises.
Oh, and I can do a really good grumpy old sod, one of the best, that's me..........
:cheers::notworthy::cheers:
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