The Great Put Decline, Essay help

[PeterChinnock]

Hi Guys, my names Pete.
I'm new to here, but was wondering if you'd be able to help me...
I have to write a 4000 word essay in Economics as part of my coursework. I have decided to choose the decline of pubs over the last 10 years as my title.
I was wondering if you guys would mind helping me... I have to do primary research, eg. Survey or Questionnaire and i thought that this would be a great place to pose the question as its a dedicated forum.
Would you mind answering a few questions?
-Why do you think people are visiting pubs less causing them to shut down (no right or wrong answer, personal opinion please!)
-What are the biggest differences pubs have undergone in the last 10 years in your opinion?
-What is your favourite thing about British pubs?
-What is the worst thing about British pubs?

Thanks very much, any replies would be fantastic! :)
Peter

[Andy Ven]

Hi Peter, I have some bullet points in mind. You will find they have been discussed elsewhere on this forum (except maybe for elasticity of demand).

Price/Competition – from supermarkets. It’s so much cheaper to drink at home with supermarkets offering deals, often selling alcohol as a loss leader

Competition/Product Placement – pubs, bars, cafes (Cafe Rouge etc), clubs, restaurants. It’s sometimes difficult to define what constitutes a pub and where the line is drawn between a pub and a bar and a cafe. The pubs I believe that are suffering the most are those that sell mainly drinks.

The ones that have been able to compete for market share are those that sell meals and provide for a wider range of customers, such as families.

Supply – the tied house system makes it so much more difficult for some pubs to compete on price compared to others nearby

The smoking ban – smokers can drink and smoke in the comfort of their own home rather than having to stand outside

The recession means that there is less disposable income for people to spend on a night in the pub.

Duty and VAT – I’m not sure what proportion of a price of a pint is made up in taxes but the perception is that it’s a fair chunk

Other overheads – business rates, the amount that satellite broadcasters charge for their sports coverage – some publicans are just priced out so they can’t compete with those that have it. Maybe the same principle applies to the cost of DJs and live music acts brought in to attract punters.

The growth of the chain pubs (Wetherspoon’s etc) who are able to compete on price because of volume and cheap meals has, in my opinion, resulted in fewer local pubs with a unique identity – it’s cheaper to eat and drink at the Wetherspoon’s in town. This I feel has what has changed significantly within the last decade.

Changing attitudes over time with regard to drinking and driving – either we drink just one or maybe two pints or don’t bother at all. Maybe rural pubs without public transport links have been hit harder

Have social (equality) attitudes also changed in terms of wives not putting up with their husbands going to the pub every night and leaving them in the house – maybe a generational change?

Could I suggest that people network in other ways, such as over the internet, rather than relying as heavily as they used to on the local pub.

Youngsters are now required to prove their age more so than when I was 18 (ish) so fewer can go into the pub and get served.

I like a pint and a chat in my local, just bumping into people I have not planned to see and therefore I might not have seen them. It’s therefore a focal point for a community.

When it comes down to it, you can’t replicate the quality of a cask ale at home.

The worst thing is you can’t always control who you meet in the pub or on the way home! Oh, and I can’t stand listening to karaoke or music that is so loud you can’t hold a conversation.

What can also be a deterrent is that a decent pint is now likely to cost £3 – it soon adds up. Ironically though, it’s amazing how many more pubs sell cask ales compared to even 2 years ago (a pub offering decent cask ale has to turnover sufficient volume otherwise it goes stale). This has coincided with an exponential growth in CAMRA membership and outlets such as Wetherspoon’s joining the ranks of real ale pubs.

If I think of anything else, I’ll let you know!

[arwkrite]

Bullet Points ! What you got there Andy ? A machine gun ? Back to my measly input.Excuse me if ,as normal , I ramble when given the chance.Andy has provided more ideas than I can think of but I will try a different tack.

1, The younger generation, while being accused of Binge drinking, can also look on regular drinking as a health risk, anti social and a threat to their jobs. For my regular sojourn to the pub my stepsons consider me an alcoholic in my habits. They drink designer beers, out of bottles in fancy bars at inflated prices. This may happen once a month. They complain of feeling hungover after 7/8 bottles of the stuff. I go down the local pub three or four times a week, have at the most 3/4 pints of real ale, talk to a variety of friendly people, walk home to an empty house and wake up next day feeling fine.It is not because of me that pubs are shutting down. A persons drinking habits are his business and may be his own problem. I am to old to be told what to do by kids because they have ideas different to mine.

I live in a rural community, after 6.30pm you can forget Public Transport, it dont exist. A lot of people drink and drive, but a lot dont. Country pubs often close on the quiet nights and all do food to boost the takings. Some people say that they do not visit a pub now because of the smoking ban. I have yet to meet anyone I know who has taken this course of action. People who would pop out just for the odd infrequent drink have told me it is now cheaper to stay at home and drink supermarket alcohol. Listen a bit more and you learn that they now appear to drink more at home than the odd pint they did before in a pub. Just last night I passed a phone box. On the shelf was a half size vodka bottle and two red bull cans, both empty. That must have been some phone call or do BT now deliver. Forget about the idyll of country life we got drink and drug problems like every where else. Pete you say about changes in the last ten years but I believe the rot set in further back when breweries were made to sell pubs off to what amounted to real estate companies. These companies care little about pubs and communities only profit and loss on every unit.

My favourite thing about British Pubs is British Beer. I can put up with questionable company as long as the beer is right.

The worst thing about SOME pubs are often the toilets, followed by ill trained staff with an ignorant attitude towards customers. Apart from the price of beer I cannot think of one common denominator to tar all pubs with. But we all complain about the price of beer so you could put that down as normal.

Better get off my soap box before I fall off and leave the floor for those members with clear minds and straight answers.I wonder whats on at the phone box tonight?:drinkup:

[trainman]

All good points above.
One thing about the smoking ban was that there was a perceived expectation (not by me) that folk who claimed not to use pubs because they were too smokey would start to do so, thus, to an extent, making up for the loss of smokers who didn't want to be constantly nipping out for a fag. Not a bit of it - that demographic mostly don't use pubs because they simply don't like 'em, so there never were compensating numbers to soften the effect of the smoking ban.
Probably connected to that is the advent of 'metrosexual' men who may briefly visit a pub for a bottle of something tasteless when they leave the office, ostensibly to have their face briefly seen in a social environment whilst wishing they were home sharing a bottle of Sauv Blanc or Merlot with the missus. And that leads to another factor - the very large increase in wine consumption in the UK, with some extremely drinkable wines available at very affordable prices.
The biggest factors in pub closures though have to be the ever increasing prices (triggered, in part, by the tax escalator) versus the ever decreasing price of cheap lager & cider (never real ale!) in the supermarkets.

The best recent thing about British pubs is the explosion of choice for the real ale market, with micro breweries offering such a variety (where you can find it) that the ale drinker, price apart, has never had it so good. The pubs where these choices are found, with the exception of Wetherspoons, tend to be the very essence of what an English pub should be, with more warmth and character (and fewer problem customers) than any high street circuit pubs. They are a dwindling breed, but are cherished by most who read these pages.

[Strongers]

The smoking ban is a good excuse for a loss in trade from pub owners/managers who have not adapted to a changing society. I know of only one place where the smoking ban had a massive impact as it was located on the first floor of a building on a high street where there were no smoking provisions.

If you look down the high street you will see all manors of local shops no longer trading and boarded up. People do not have the disposable income anymore and I am one of those that drink at home more now, and yes I do drink more now than I did when I went to the pub 3 or 4 nights a week.

I think that the majority of pubs now rely heavily on dry sales and the ones that don’t have to build up a reputation for top quality beers and be in an area where the hard work will be appreciated by the local population.

I have been to a lot of old boozers, that are so popular with people on this site including me, and they have been almost empty when all the pubs in the surrounding area have been packed. The landlord/landlady are obviously concerned about this, but they do not have a proactive approach to change it as they have been selling beer for 30+ years and they are not about to start selling food or making coffee etc etc.

A good pub to mention is the Southampton Arms in Kentish Town where they have taken a failing grotty old estate pub and turned it into a real ale emporium selling local beers and pies and hot meat sandwiches like the old days and people are lapping it up. Good luck to them and I hope that the novelty doesn’t wear off.

My favourite thing about the local pub is that it is a great leveller and you’ll find bank managers talking to roofers and old talking to young.

My least favourite is the cost.

I could rattle on for hours!

[Evil Gazebo]

The Great Put decline, Essay help

Hi Guys, my names Pete.
I'm new to here, but was wondering if you'd be able to help me...
I have to write a 4000 word essay in Economics as part of my coursework. I have decided to choose the decline of pubs over the last 10 years as my title.
I was wondering if you guys would mind helping me...

Thanks very much, any replies would be fantastic! :)
Peter

It might be a good idea to spell "Pub" correctly in your essay title. ;)

[ETA]

OK, my thoughts.

I believe the factors affecting change the most are both social and economic. I base this on the observation that I frequently see town pubs full during the week, often with those on what I perceive as a limited income (the obviously unemployed, students, pensioners). This comment is not a dig at any of those populations - it is up to everyone how they spend their own money - just an observation that economic hardshit doesn't necessarily stop pub visiting.

People do spend more time socialising at venues other than pubs - restaurants are the obvious choice, but I believe there is an increase in the number of people who entertain at home (barbecues, dinner parties, wide-screen tvs showing sports, and the growth of wine drinking has not, unlike on the continent, led to a significant increase in the popularity of wine bars. I think there are also more clubs (late night boozers for the hard of thinking, rather than "proper" members-type clubs) around now which relocates a large number of drinkers both spacially and temporally from the pub market. Conversely, I think there has been a decline in the popularity of teh other types of club - working men's conservative/labour party clubs, RBL etc etc.

Changes in attitudes to drink-driving have had an effect in both rural and urban areas - though there are so many factors involved I think it would be difficult to separate this influence from any statistical analysis. For my own part, I will sometimes have a pint of something weak with a proper lunchmeal when I'm not driving far, but more than that I just don't do (Mrs A has a perfectly good driving license which I hate to waste, plus I use my bicycle when I can).

Another change is the increase in the number of TTs around (despite the media-fuelled myth that binge drinking is about to cause society to collapse). I think there are 2 main reasons for this - health nazis have convinced the innocent that they will go to Hell (or other religious equivalent) if they go anywhere near a yeast spore, while there is an increasing proportion of the population which doesn't drink alcohol on religious grounds. That should not stop them visiting pubs, though - most pubs do sell soft drinks after all.

The point about landlords' not moving with the times is well made, but does not apply universally. Chains like JDW - whether we like them or not - have been innovative and, while I hate to admit it, may very well serve a valuable role in saving teh pub trade. They have diversified (breakfast menues, early coffees etc) and adapted to the changing High Street environment, while only the very best tradional boozers will survive.

Interestingly, this phenomenon is not unique to Britain - the same has happened in France where many traditional cafes have closed, citing the same reasons - smoking ban, increased taxation on premises and alcoholic drinks, and competition from chains and modern bars.

Sorry, that was very unstructured and a bit of a ramble, but what do you expect at this time of the morning? Never mind, only 9 hours before my next pint...

[ROBCamra]

It might be a good idea to spell "Pub" correctly in your essay title. ;)

Damn, I was just counting up how many times I go to the Put every month. Less than one I think. :p

[Alesonly]

The main reasons I stopped going too the Pub on a Daily Basses is changes too working practises over the years.
In the 70s I used too work in standard Telephones at New Southgate and I would go in The York Arms most lunch times.

Then In the early 80s I worked on The Railway and most of us would often have a drink after work in the Local were we finished.then in the 90s come big changes in comes the Zero work limit that meant you cant drink nothing at all at least eight hours before work and only 7 units in any 24 hours before the start of shift. that was another biggest cause it did not just affect us it also applies too most site workers and a lot of company's are now using this so most workers don't drinking now if working next day. Think how many workers used too drink at lunch times and after a hard days work in factory's now if you go in a Pub at lunch times its dead except for a few pensioners.

[PeterChinnock]

Thanks for the help guys! Its great!
Don't think i'd want to be writing an essay on puts...
Sorry about the typo!

[Conrad]

... just an observation that economic hardshit doesn't necessarily stop pub visiting.

Fantastic typo, and not an easy one either, you had to cross the whole keyboard to get that one. ;)

Also on the soft drink point, do pubs have to charge so much for them, I passed my driving test fairly quickly and was a nominated driver amongst my mates as I didn't mind not drinking and quite enjoyed driving, gods it was expensive for slightly fizzy water with a ton of sugar added. I don't think it is as bad now but I do wonder if pubs should just give free soft drinks if someone is a nominated driver with a group. Annnnyway...

Broadly agree with what everyone else has said, I do think that Alesonly's point about changing work culture is quite important though. I do think that we all work a lot harder, most families have both adults working and frequently longer hours, couple this with the changing attitude to drink and I just think that people go to the pub less, and in many ways I think people are frequently less sociable in general (although that may just be me).

[ETA]

Fantastic typo, and not an easy one either, you had to cross the whole keyboard to get that one. ;)

.

Butter it, I really bust improve my taping.

Though, given that both my typo and the OP's title typo are both pretty improbable (I refer to Conrad's incisive observation on key juxtaposition), is there something else going on here?

[Farway]

Agree with all points made so far, but cost is a big factor to most I reckon, and the rip off on soft drinks, had a bloke order a cola for his kids,not real Coca Cola or Pepsi, just the stuff that comes out of hose, £1.40 for half pint, he was so shocked he mentioned it to me, a complete stranger, I bet he will not return with his family

Oddly enough and maybe the exception, I did start using pubs again when smoking ban came in

As a smug non smoker for nearly 40 years I hated the pong of someones smoke on my clothes, so I never went in pubs, drank at home

The point about changing with the times is also relevant, but many are unable to do so as the pubcos will not spend money on pubs, so the shabby pub gets shabbier whilst having to sell what pubco dictates

[ETA]

...the pubcos will not spend money on pubs, so the shabby pub gets shabbier whilst having to sell what pubco dictates

Don't get me started on another rant - Pubcos.

Maybe their own day doomsday is coming - I was hoping last year (when Enterprise's shares hit rock bottom and Punch was having problems) that these dinosaurs' asteroid had arrived, but somehow they have mutated into cockroaches and survived.

Come the revolution, I will have all Pubco board members shot (or maybe just made to do a few hours' community service) while their assets are handed over to the publicans and communities they have bled white over the past few years.

[Crossste]

Agree with all points made so far, but cost is a big factor to most I reckon, and the rip off on soft drinks, had a bloke order a cola for his kids,not real Coca Cola or Pepsi, just the stuff that comes out of hose, £1.40 for half pint, he was so shocked he mentioned it to me, a complete stranger, I bet he will not return with his family

A few years ago a pub we used quite regularly close to us charged me 50p for a dash of coke in my wife's Bacardi. she has roughly the same amount of coke as Bacardi. How much does that work out a pint? Had we chose to go in again, which we haven,t, she,d have been back on the lager.

[Wittenden]

I agree with most opinions above: here are my two pennorth.
1-the decline of the traditional pub landlord, who knows his or her customers and can "work the pub". I'm afraid that in my experience most managers don't have the commitenment or skill to fulfil this role. My appologies to any genuine mangers out there.
2-the new puritanism-smoking is bad, drink is worse. Our 2 teenagers seem much more conventional and responsible than we were in the 70s and 80s.They do use pubs, but drink and pubs are viewed with a degree of distrust. I blame the schools!
3-cost and lack of time.
4-the development of the gastro pub making it an uncomfortable experience if you just want a drink. Food is important, and we often use the pub to eat, but a balance needs to be struck or else a further gap in society will occur.
5-the main plus point for me is that the pub is the best level playing field or neutral meeting place yet developed.

[ETA]

I agree with most opinions above: here are my two pennorth.
... the pub is the best level playing field or neutral meeting place yet developed.

It's probably the only establishment in the country where that is true.

[arwkrite]

A bit of banter yesterday with the barmaid. This is no joke. She derided the drinking of any alcohol. It was harmful to both health and ones social life. At the same time she defended the smoking of marijuana as purely recreational and harmless. Why did she, in her view, continue to poison her customers ? " Well gotta earn a living aint I ".Such touching concern.

I just realised. During the match yesterday evening there was an overpowering smell of marijuana...IN THE BAR. I am so used to smelling the stuff I must think its presence normal.

[ETA]

Well gotta earn a living aint I ".Such touching concern.

.

But if she posessed teh two most valuable assets a barmaid can have, maybe you can forgive her?

[arwkrite]

Was a bit to thin for me. My taste runs to ample portions and then some. However she pulled a good pint and as long as she does not want me to smoke the stuff I think we can co-exist.

[HTM69]

There have been some superb responses in this thread, so I ill just throw in a few of my theories regarding the hardships felt by the great British Public House.

Firstly, Supermarkets: it has been touched on time and time again, but the cheap booze promotions and offers are harming the pub trade. Why go to the pub and spend £3 for a pint of beer, when you can get 15 cans for about a tenner? I don’t know the exact price, because I choose not to buy lager from the supermarket!

Secondly, the changing demographic of our society: the United Kingdom is becoming more and more of a multi-cultural society. Take the East End of London, where are large Muslim communities and plenty of boarded-up pub – a coincidence? I think not.

I don’t know whether-or-not my last point is a taboo reason, but in my honest opinion, it is a key factor.

[arwkrite]

HTM69 I can see no reason why it should be a taboo subject. If the market is no longer there you can no longer sell the product. I am glad that I can go to most big towns and buy and eat food from all over the world. And its sellers are from all over.But in my part of the country there are not yet any Communities of different races or religions. Just how my small town manages to support three Chinese takeaways and two Indian restaurants puzzles me. The children go to local schools, the Chinese ladies are to be seen shopping and the men are spoken to on first name terms.The men from the Indian restaurants love to bet and are often seen in the bookies. I have just thought...I have never seen any Indian female. Any way these trades people are integrating into the community as best they can. You do not see them in pubs but that also goes for a lot of locally born and bred.
I was going to make a comment about the futility of trying to sell fridges to Eskimos but if you believe everything about global warming there now could be a niche market.

My local is charging £2 per pint for beers and lagers during World cup match times. A saving of between 50p-80p per pint. I can buy 8 large cans of lager for £7. But that £7 does not include the company of like minded people, the repartee,the jokes , the sense of communal disappointment when England fail to perform. I walk home from the pub with that feeling of it will all be different next time. If I sat at home on my own and drank those cans of lager I would likely feel even more depressed than I usually am. Its the shared experience that makes one willing to pay the price of a drink in a pub otherwise all of us would be down the supermarket.

[ETA]

I don’t know whether-or-not my last point is a taboo reason, but in my honest opinion, it is a key factor.

I have met a numnber of Muslims on my travels who enjoy a drink. It's liek lots of religions - they adapt the theology to suit themselves. Many Afghans drink in their villages simply because when their ancestors adopted Islam, they ignored the bits that didn't suit them. (I guess it's a bit like the Christian church today which, on the one hand, tells us to live by the Bible, then ignores the bits in Deuteronomy and Leviticus about same-sex relations, how women shoudl dress and behave, alcohol consumption and keeping the Sabbath Day holy. I'm not saying whether these things are right or wrong, just that the Church's approach to them is inconsistent. Still, you can't take what Christian clerics say as Gospel, can you?) I was once also told by a member of the Saudi royal family that to was OK to drink in London because "Allah can't see [us] here".

I don't believe this should be a taboo subject in a society where freedom of speech and expression has been a constitutional right since 1205 and has always been part of English culture. The fact that we raise these issues with such trepidation suggests that HTM69's Key Factor applies not just to our pubs.

[Conrad]

Does anyone else see ethnic communities closing pubs? I have to admit to not noticing that one, some areas have changed the natures of their pubs, and being honest I wouldn't feel comfortable going in, but not strictly speaking a closure.

[Strongers]

I think that a change of demographic in West London has seen a lot of pubs close and have a change of use, but the ones that were really good or changed with the times are still there. There are now just as many pubs in NW London that do curry as do Thai.

The influx of Poles has also seen some pubs that were closed be reopened next to the Polish shop (Sklep)

[Farway]

Does anyone else see ethnic communities closing pubs? I have to admit to not noticing that one, some areas have changed the natures of their pubs, and being honest I wouldn't feel comfortable going in, but not strictly speaking a closure.

I don't, but then round here it is nearly 100% white English and multi culturism is some sort of wierd alien concept, like Asian or Chines supermarkets

[Rex_Rattus]

Does anyone else see ethnic communities closing pubs? I have to admit to not noticing that one, some areas have changed the natures of their pubs, and being honest I wouldn't feel comfortable going in, but not strictly speaking a closure.
I have to say that I had not really considered this as a factor, but it stands to reason that it must have an effect on the viability of pubs in some areas. Where I live there is a large Korean community, but you see Koreans in pubs so I doubt whether their presence has much of an effect. But if you look at the Brick Lane & Whitechapel High St area with its very large Muslim Bengali population then it stands to reason that it must have an effect, when such a large proportion of the local popuation doesn't drink. But I reckon any effect is pretty much unquantifiable. There's at least one pub that has closed down in Brick Lane (as well as the Black Eagle brewery of course!), but pubs close down all the time for all kinds of reasons so who can say that it was solely because of the Muslim population? There's also one of the best pubs around just off Brick Lane, so where does that leave us? I have to say that I can't name a pub that has gone to the wall because of a change in the ethnic mix.

[HTM69]

Of course pubs are not solely closing due to a change in the demographic, but it is having an effect. How could it not? Some areas may not be affected - like where I live, though I suspect the closures in the Medway area are due to a general lack of interest - but some indeed are.

Being a civil servant and working in central London, I work with a lot of ethnics and most of them choose not to drink. The change has been rapid in the last few years. Previously in my department, there was a healthy mix who would venture to the pub together on a Friday evening - but not anymore. The demographic in my office has changed vastly and as such, have the after-work social habits of my colleagues.

[ETA]

in the Medway area....

Not a closure, but I have often wondered whether http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/9846/ (The Countryman in Gillingham) was affected by the increase in the number of Asian famillies in Gillingham. It used to be called The Ghuzni Fort and was a memorial to soldiers killed in an action there (Ghuznee, not the pub) during one of the Afghan wars in the nineteenth Century. I have previously wondered why the name was changed - was it because of the change in local population mix, was it because people were uncomfortable with Britain's colonial past, was it a loss of respect for the military or just ignorance of history?

I asked a similar question about the Anglo Saxon (now the Will Adams) http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/9896/ and was told that the name change was simply the new owner's attempt to disassociate the new name from a previous reputation for trouble. A fair comment, I guess, but you can't help wondering whether our inverted pride and over-sensitivity to being accused of nationalism may have been a factor.

Are there any other possibel examples of this - where the name of a pub has been changed as a result of a demographic change?

[Conrad]

I have to admit the cultural change had never occurred to me, I live in a district that has a lot of Polish people move in and specialist shops opening, I haven't really noticed any effect on the pubs though. I can see how it would be different for Muslim areas, just something I had never thought of so interested to see whether others had noticed.

As to changing names I think it is fairly natural to change a pubs name when you take over to try and make it clear that the pub is under new management. If you are changing the name you probably won't pick something that could be contentious these days.

[Farway]

As to changing names I think it is fairly natural to change a pubs name when you take over to try and make it clear that the pub is under new management. If you are changing the name you probably won't pick something that could be contentious these days.

I sometimes wonder how Mcspoons pick the names, most I have seen try & use a local connection but would probably avoid "The Slavetrader" in Bristol or Liverpool, or Judge Jeffreys in Dortchester :whistle:

[Conrad]

What great examples, I have never been a fan of the fear of the slave trade in Bristol, I seem to remember the city council made an official apology to the black community a few years back (may be my warped memory). The centre was recently rebuilt as well and we ended up having to call it 'Cabots Circus' instead the 'Merchants Quarter' as apparently Merchants Quarter has slave connotations. Meanwhile Clifton one of the wealthiest districts is fed by Whiteladies Road, of which one section is known as Black Boy Hill.

Those who don't learn from history however are doomed to repeat it, we should embrace the history in our efforts to move beyond it I say.

[Farway]

Whilst not wishing to veer too far from thread, it should be remembered that it was not only Africans who were traded as slaves, many Devon / Cornish & Irish were taken as slaves by the Moors and others of African origin

"Almost all the inhabitants of the village of Baltimore, in Ireland, were captured in 1631, and there were other raids in Devon and Cornwall. "

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/mar/11/highereducation.books

[HTM69]

Some interesting point, ETA - thank you for raising them.

Personally, I haven't given much thought to the name-changes of the two pubs you have mentioned. The Will Adams was called The Anglo Saxon for many years. I don't know the reasoning behind the change of name, but I suspect a change of ownership and 'fresh start' could perhaps be the main factor. Will Adams was of course an seafaring explorer who heralded from the town. The centrepiece of the pubs interior is a mural depicting his adventures. One other point: 'The Anglo Saxon' is still etched in the windows.

[arwkrite]

I love history but I do not subscribe to the idea that the human race learns from it. If we did there would be no more wars. As to all this apologizing for deeds done in the past I find it probably well meant but rather pointless. Those who apologise were not responsible for the done deeds. Those accepting the apologies never suffered as there ancestors did. I know that if I had been forcibly taken from my home and made to work as a slave NO amount of apologies by anybody would make up for what I had lost.And no one would have the power to accept apologies on my behalf or grant forgiveness for things done against me.Go to Portugal and North Africa you will find remnants of the slave trade touted as tourist attractions not hidden away.We hide our past and soon it ends up like TV history programs..all air brushed and sanitised so it will not offend anyone.Bit like modern chain pubs !

[ETA]

I love history but I do not subscribe to the idea that the human race learns from it.!

I think it was Hegel who said that the only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history.

[HTM69]

I think we are veering away somewhat from the threads meant subject-matter, but to add my two cents: I really do not believe we should be apologising for the mistakes of past generations. It has absolutely nothing to do with the likes of you and I and I despise by the way the Labour Government tried to tarnish this fine nations history, good and bad.

[Conrad]

Surely the apologising is implicit in the outlawing of the slave trade and genocide by or before our generation, the actually saying it seems like we should be able to correct our ancestors decisions which in many cases is overly optimistic.

As to the not learning from history:
War, I notice we sadly hit our 300th Afghanistan casualty yesterday during late year 6 of our activity in the country, allegedly we took 2700 casualties on D-day.
The slave trade is now outlawed and whilst I am sure there are still slaves in the country, they are not the routine issue they once were.

Whilst the saying is trite, we do learn lessons from history, and whilst some may learn the wrong lessons I still think it is important we remembered the real facts rather than try and rewrite it through embarrassment or the fear of needing to apologise.

I may split this thread up if we carry on chatting about this (feel free) as it may not be useful in the Great Put decline discussion ;).

[arwkrite]

The Retreat From Kabul, 1842...4,500 British Troops Killed with about 12,000 civilians.
Russian withdrawal in 1985...Losses...who knows ?

But we both got a backsides kicked out in some fashion.

[Eddie86]

Having caught up with this thread now, I'd like to throw something out into the mix.

The attitude of owners and their staff.

My tuppence

[Conrad]

For the benefit of Peter, Eddie runs a pub so may have a slightly different perspective to many of us answering so far.

Picking up on the point Stronger said at the start of the thread that:

The smoking ban is a good excuse for a loss in trade from pub owners/managers who have not adapted to a changing society. I know of only one place where the smoking ban had a massive impact as it was located on the first floor of a building on a high street where there were no smoking provisions.

I was wondering if it had ever been the case that you just had to open a pubs doors and people would come and buy drinks from you?

Certainly it is my perception that the pubs I still see open are generally of a higher quality of service, and there are enough good choices that if I have a bad experience I just move on and don't come back to the bad pub. I do remember pubs being of a lot lower standard when I first started drinking 20+ years back though. I am not sure if I have just got more picky now or they could get away with it back then.

[gillhalfpint]

Just back from visiting Belgian pubs so hope I am still in time to add my answers to your questions.

Cheap beer/lager from supermarkets causing more to drink at home round BBQ's than go to pubs.
Biggest change in pubs over 10 years is knocking multi rooms into one souless room.
Favourite thing in pub is atmosphere.
Worse thing is ear splitting music that stops conversation.

Gill

[arwkrite]

WHAT DID GILL SAY,CANT HEAR FOR THE RACKET ON THE MUSIC SYSTEM.




Sorry just couldnt resist it.

[gillhalfpint]

You've obviously got my message if you have to shout that loud!!

[Eddie86]

You've obviously got my message if you have to shout that loud!!

Click Here... (http://www.thepublican.com/story.asp?sectioncode=7&storycode=67359&c=1)

[arwkrite]

You've obviously got my message if you have to shout that loud!!

After working in a Heavy Machine Shop for 30 yrs and suffering from Tinitus the menace of background music is something I live with. A packed pub with just conversation sounds to me like an under water experiance.

[aleandhearty]

Biggest change in pubs over 10 years is knocking multi rooms into one souless room.


Definitely. I'm sure we can all think of dozens ruined by that treatment.

[Alesonly]

& gillhalfpint
Just Biggest change in pubs over 10 years is knocking multi rooms into one souless room. Definitely. I'm sure we can all think of dozens ruined by that treatment.

I certainly can. The Big problem is the Pub chains just fail too see it takes away the choice of the customer. For instance If you have a large pub with Three bars One for sports TV Pool Darts ETC which was the Public Bar. One quiet so you can Talk Read & Drink IE Snug. One For dinning Kids & Family's which was the Lounge/Saloon. You then get three totally different sets of customers which should mean more trade why cant they see this. or Am I missing something.

[arwkrite]

From the big pubs built by Bass and Ansell down to the street corner pub the three room layout was the norm only the size of the rooms varied. Women ,even when with a man, were not welcome in the public bar. The lounge bar was for couples and those aspiring to something more than hobnail boots and dirty finger nails.The snug was for solo females , normally war windows back then, and old men with the whippets who did not like the raucousness of the Public Bar.
Food and children on the scale we know today played no part in it.

Pehaps this Class ridden arrangement upset someone but when did it suddenly happen that the builders came in and moved all the walls ? You could sit in the snug on your own and feel at home. Now sit in some one bar pubs at a quiet time and you feel very lonely staring at acres of empty tables perhaps seeing the odd sole in the distance.

The Great Leveler visited our pubs and ruined so many.

[oldboots]

You then get three totally different sets of customers which should mean more trade why cant they see this. or Am I missing something.

I believe part of the reason is (was?) the attitude of the old licensing benches and the Police. They came to believe that all customers should be under supervision all the time and that one big bar made this easier. The little snugs and private bars (and I've seen 19th C plans of quite small pubs with nine small bars plus a bottle and jug) made all sorts of naughtiness possible, the passing of betting slips being a favourite before legalised betting shops, ladies of easy virtue touting for business (and more) and such like. With the council Hitlers in charge it's only going to get worse, look at the number of CCTV cameras in pubs for example or read about some of the carp that Oldham Council comes out with :moremad:. Of course trouble kicking off in a small room shouldn't spread to other rooms but in a vertical drinking barn it's another story so that's something else they got wrong. From a pub owner viewpoint there may be some cost savings in having only one counter to staff but I've had good service in pubs with two or three counters and we've all queued in JDWs single counter jobs. Incidentally, Pub Curmudgeon recently had a blog about two bar pubs and where the price differential still existed.

[Conrad]

Just did a quick search, this may well be the Pub Curmudgeon article (http://pubcurmudgeon.blogspot.com/2010/06/vaulting-into-lounge.html). (Nice that we can search them from the forum due to the blog tracking).

[aleandhearty]

'arky' and 'ob'. Having just read your posts, it's fascinating to learn some of the historical context behind the debate.

[arwkrite]

We Know 'cause we was there.

The social history side of pubs is fascinating . Larger than life characters both sides of the bar and the pub was often more important than the church in the hovels of Industrial Britain, But all that is being air brushed out of history. I can remember, as can a few others, of life in the 50s and 60s Things are so much different now.

[oldboots]

Just did a quick search, this may well be the Pub Curmudgeon article (http://pubcurmudgeon.blogspot.com/2010/06/vaulting-into-lounge.html). (Nice that we can search them from the forum due to the blog tracking).
That's one I was thinking of, cunning stuff this interwebby thing


'arky' and 'ob'. Having just read your posts, it's fascinating to learn some of the historical context behind the debate.

I think the attitude about one big bar is still current, the gentrification of the middle class and their abandonment of pub life, along with most of the upper classes in the 19th Century may sound a bit academic but it's the root of a lot of modern attitudes that are still causing problems for us humble drinkers.


We Know 'cause we was there.

The social history side of pubs is fascinating . Larger than life characters both sides of the bar and the pub was often more important than the church in the hovels of Industrial Britain, But all that is being air brushed out of history. I can remember, as can a few others, of life in the 50s and 60s Things are so much different now.

Sadly I wasn't in pubs in the 50s and 60s only from the early 70s, although my dad had some great stories about pubs then especially in seaports. You're spot on about the larger than life characters, they may still be about, possibly even lurking on here, but you need to look a lot harder to find them than in the old days, my personal feeling is that instead of celebrating good old British eccentricity as in the past it is now a reason for abuse and ridicule, probably part of the "all shall have prizes" mentality which means "all must be mediocre or else we'll take the pi55"

[Oggwyn Trench]

Speaking for my own area , over the last few years a lot of pubs have been run by landlords who just have not got a clue or worse dont care and are in the trade for a quick buck .
The Pubcos , if you work hard and double your barrelage as a reward they will triple your rent , then people wonder why all the good Landlords are leaving the trade .
Supermarkets , there has been plenty said on this but for example the exise/tax on a bottle of wine is about £2.50 , and they sell at 3 for £10 so loads of profit there then !
Nightclubs/Bars , there used to be two in Telford as a whole that opened at 10pm , now there are 4 in Oakengates alone , 3 open at 5pm with free entry before 10pm and the old snooker centre , still has a snooker hall , but now has a nightclub with attached bar that is open all day , these places are much more attractive to younger drinkers .
As for ethnics two local pubs have been reopened by Indian families , not as resturants but pubs , and a good job they are doing as well

[ROBCamra]

Telford as a whole

Looks like you've got an extra W in there again Oggy. :D:D:D