CAMRA Revitalisation Project [Archive]

Aqualung

22-01-2018, 18:37

Much more detail here (https://revitalisationdecision.camra.org.uk/)

A fair of amount of cat among the pigeons type stuff, some will leave if some of it is adopted, some will leave if some of it's not. Should be fun.

I can't leave as I'm a life member! I would probably have not renewed my subscription over the missing What's Brewing issue which strikes me as being a breach of contract.
I find some of the arguments on the extreme sides of the craft vs cask argument totally ridiculous as is the very strict definition of "Real" cider from the cider brigade. I've never been to a CAMRA AGM as I've never had enough smelling salts available to keep me awake.

Quinno

22-01-2018, 19:24

I'm bored of it already. However, the website is massively skewed as to be a piece of propaganda. Which isn't the best way to sway votes, IMHO.

sheffield hatter

22-01-2018, 20:08

... the website is massively skewed as to be a piece of propaganda. Which isn't the best way to sway votes, IMHO.

Couldn't agree more. The answers to FAQs are all just a summary of NE policy positions. Reading them, I keep on expecting to see "on the other hand", but it somehow never appears.

oldboots

23-01-2018, 17:58

I'm bored of it already. However, the website is massively skewed as to be a piece of propaganda. Which isn't the best way to sway votes, IMHO.

Couldn't agree more. The answers to FAQs are all just a summary of NE policy positions. Reading them, I keep on expecting to see "on the other hand", but it somehow never appears.

Surely the "on the other hand" or alternative is the status quo? If the Resolutions don't get the 70% yes vote, and it's not just open to the votes of the beards in the room but every member who can be arsed, then the current situation stays in place for good or ill. It also depends on what motions the beards in the room are able to put up against the Resolutions and if the NE decide to over-rule them like they did with the Resolution motion.

Plenty of nonsense about it all on the Discourse site, about 250 posts on two threads so far, makes a change from sexism I suppose.

rpadam

23-01-2018, 23:03

sheffield hatter

24-01-2018, 07:49

Surely the "on the other hand" or alternative is the status quo? If the Resolutions don't get the 70% yes vote, and it's not just open to the votes of the beards in the room but every member who can be arsed, then the current situation stays in place for good or ill.

Sure, I get that. My point was that the "answers" to the FAQs were simply putting forward the argument for supporting the changes. Where's the argument for not making any changes?

oldboots

24-01-2018, 13:28

Sure, I get that. My point was that the "answers" to the FAQs were simply putting forward the argument for supporting the changes. Where's the argument for not making any changes?

There are a few points on Discourse but as the NE is firmly behind the changes don't expect anything official from that quarter.

oldboots

25-01-2018, 14:39

sheffield hatter

25-01-2018, 22:28

Pub Curmudgeon has some interesting words on the need for revitalisation on his blog http://pubcurmudgeon.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/new-blood-in-old-casks.html , he will be analysing it in depth when the special resolutions are published.

Thanks for the link. I think he's hit the nail on the head with this: " Indeed, it could be argued that the very rise of “craft keg” makes the need to champion real ale all the more pressing." I don't agree with everything he writes (heaven forfend) and often enjoy his blog most for the comments btl from Cooking Lager, but most of what he's written here seems about right to me.

One other comment blt got my blood boiling, though: "I for one wouldn't consider joining CAMRA because it is focussed, still, on real ale which is of little interest to me. However, if it changed into, say, the Society for the Appreciation of Pubs and Beer (or something along those lines) then I'd be much more inclined to join." (I have responded - perhaps too hot-bloodedly.)

[Anyway, isn't Pubs Galore the Society for the Appreciation of Pubs and Beer?]

Aqualung

25-01-2018, 23:45

Pub Curmudgeon has some interesting words on the need for revitalisation on his blog http://pubcurmudgeon.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/new-blood-in-old-casks.html , he will be analysing it in depth when the special resolutions are published. There is also a bit here (https://benviveur.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/camra-revitalisation-much-ado-about.html) although it repeats the MA errors about what has been proposed.

I find the views of these blogging keg evangelists just as idiotic as those who think that only the products of the old independent brewers are the pinnacle of cask ale production.
Let's look at draught Bass which isn't an independent but is a great example. Back in the 1970s it was a fantastic beer that was famously difficult to keep. It relied on heavy dry hopping which is one of the things that made it difficult but if it was on song it was superb. Bass changed it in the early or mid 80s when it became just another boring brown beer. Despite that people still wanted it and CAMRA still sung its praises. Today it's brewed by Marstons so is just yet another Marstons bitter, probably inferior to Pedigree. I wonder how many of the people that still drink it are actually aware of this and are not just blindly following a well known brand.

oldboots

26-01-2018, 07:46

I find the views of these blogging keg evangelists just as idiotic as those who think that only the products of the old independent brewers are the pinnacle of cask ale production.

I don't think a man who raves about Sam Smiths OBB and Draught Bass could be described as a Keg Evangelist. However I also find the two extreme views as unpalatable as cold, fizzy beer and agree 100% about Bass as it is now (possibly now brewed at Wolverhampton!) and Pedigree has been a shadow of its former self for at least 20 years too.

The revitalisation proposals do include "Review whether beer marketed as real ale meets CAMRA’s definition" which could spell the end of support for Marstons and possibly GK.

Aqualung

26-01-2018, 08:51

I don't think a man who raves about Sam Smiths OBB and Draught Bass could be described as a Keg Evangelist.

I didn't know that, the only Blog I regularly look at is Boak and Bailey. If he sings the praises of those two products then he clearly is raving.

sheffield hatter

26-01-2018, 09:31

The revitalisation proposals do include "Review whether beer marketed as real ale meets CAMRA’s definition" which could spell the end of support for Marstons and possibly GK.

Surely they can't redefine real ale so that it has to taste as good as it did forty years ago?

I think there's something in the last FAQ answer that may be relevant here: "There is a difference between recognising the value of all beer types and campaigning for them." This seems to refer to making the organisation more inclusive so that it attracts drinkers of lager and craft keg by recognising some of them as "quality" products but not necessarily campaigning for them. I don't see how they could remove Bass and Pedigree from the category of real ales (and therefore exclude them from campaigns?) simply because the quality of these beers has declined over the years (in the opinion of some more discerning drinkers, perhaps I should add!).

Aqualung

26-01-2018, 10:21

Surely they can't redefine real ale so that it has to taste as good as it did forty years ago?

I wouldn't think so.
I would say Pedigree is generally better now than in the 70s when it wasn't a national brand. It was always OK in Fleet Street's Cheshire Cheese (where it was a major attraction and they sold shed loads of the stuff) but I had many a dire pint of it in their North Wales outlets. Bass is another matter, today's product shows no resemblance at all to what it was before the brewery changed and ruined it in the 80s. Boddingtons was another example of this. Does anyone else remember Boddington's Mild and winter Old Ale?

sheffield hatter

26-01-2018, 19:49

Boddingtons was another example of this. Does anyone else remember Boddington's Mild and winter Old Ale?

Boddingtons Bitter is my favourite beer of all time - in its original manifestation of course. And I can vaguely remember getting very drunk on Old at the New Inn in Morecambe (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/19479/) a long time ago (1975/6?).

Aqualung

26-01-2018, 20:55

Boddingtons Bitter is my favourite beer of all time - in its original manifestation of course. And I can vaguely remember getting very drunk on Old at the New Inn in Morecambe (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/19479/) a long time ago (1975/6?).

I came across the Old and Mild in a Preston tied house. It may have been this (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/55915/) one but I can't be entirely sure. It would have involved the Persil tickets to get there and would have probably been the late seventies.

oldboots

27-01-2018, 09:28

Surely they can't redefine real ale so that it has to taste as good as it did forty years ago?

...I don't see how they could remove Bass and Pedigree from the category of real ales (and therefore exclude them from campaigns?) simply because the quality of these beers has declined over the years (in the opinion of some more discerning drinkers, perhaps I should add!).

If only some beers did taste as good as they did in the 1970s, I actually used to like the heavy sulphury taste of Pedigree then. The thing about the current version of Pedigree is the use of "Fastcask" yeast so it drops bright within hours, this is part of the dumbing down process that has been going on since the late 1970s. At that time the regional and family brewers were still sticking with traditional processes and ingredients, they then started cost cutting with inferior ingredients and shortening the brewing time. The loss of the Burton Unions and the wandering about the country of Draught Bass brewing is one symptom of this, over the same period the loss of traditional cellar skills has caused the extended use of brewery conditioning and the production of almost bright beer by many breweries. It is ironic that the hipster generation seek full flavour beers and denigrate the Boring Brown Bitters when they were full flavoured until "the accountants" buggered it all up.

This guy (http://tynemouthlodgehotel.net/camra-embraces-keg/) says some of the same things but gets a lot of it so very wrong, but it illustrates one facet of the debate.

sheffield hatter

27-01-2018, 18:25

This guy (http://tynemouthlodgehotel.net/camra-embraces-keg/) says some of the same things but gets a lot of it so very wrong, but it illustrates one facet of the debate.

Thanks for the link. I thought the idea that carbon dioxide used with cask breathers would dissolve in the beer and make it fizzy had been properly debunked? [Is this what you mean about him getting a lot of it wrong?] I'm sure I've seen a thread in Discourse suggesting that Camra were wrong to exclude pubs using a cask breather and that in fact in blind tastings beers from barrels kept using a cask breather came out better than ones kept under the recommended system.

sheffield hatter

27-01-2018, 18:34

At that time the regional and family brewers were still sticking with traditional processes and ingredients, they then started cost cutting with inferior ingredients and shortening the brewing time. The loss of the Burton Unions and the wandering about the country of Draught Bass brewing is one symptom of this, over the same period the loss of traditional cellar skills has caused the extended use of brewery conditioning and the production of almost bright beer by many breweries. It is ironic that the hipster generation seek full flavour beers and denigrate the Boring Brown Bitters when they were full flavoured until "the accountants" buggered it all up.

You're right. This process is still going on of course, with nearly all the taste removed from all beers brewed under the Wolverhampton & Dudley banner (with the possible exception of Ringwood?) including Pedigree as already mentioned, Brakspear Bitter, Banks's Mild and now, horror of horrors, Jennings Sneck Lifter. This fine old beer (first brewed in 1993 if memory serves!) has lost its silky, malty texture and its well-balanced hoppiness, and now tastes only of caramel. God rot all (brewery) accountants.

london calling

27-01-2018, 21:03

I think Camra realise that a lot of the keg beer is pretty good and will let it into their fests.They will not actively promote it but agree its now the time to make changes .Doombar is an example of real ale that in most cases is not secondary fermented in the cask and therefore not really cask ale by Camra,s definition.

Aqualung

27-01-2018, 22:45

If only some beers did taste as good as they did in the 1970s, I actually used to like the heavy sulphury taste of Pedigree then.
I remember that sulphury taste well and yes it definitely has gone. You used to get it to a lesser degree in Ind Coope Burton Ale. I don't have a complete downer on BBBs (apart from the one you can instantly guess) as there are some excellent ones from the new kids on the block.

Aqualung

27-01-2018, 23:02

You're right. This process is still going on of course, with nearly all the taste removed from all beers brewed under the Wolverhampton & Dudley banner (with the possible exception of Ringwood?)
I'm not sure about Ringworm beers, they did heavily water down Old Thumper. I quite like Banks's Sunbeam and Hobgoblin Gold.
Brakspear is a very interesting case as even in the 1970s their bitter never tasted as good in London as their tied houses. I suspect that the fact it relied heavily on dry hopping was significant. The Special and Old were more resilient although it was said that the Old Ale was just Special with added caramel. Let's throw in one from Oop North. I only once had a pint of Landlord that tasted like it did in their tied houses and that was in a pub in Peterborough. I've yet to see any resemblance between today's beer and that of old as I normally swerve it as it's overpriced for what it is.

sheffield hatter

28-01-2018, 09:57

I don't have a complete downer on BBBs (apart from the one you can instantly guess)

I had an amazingly good half of that one here (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/43027/).

Wittenden

28-01-2018, 14:39

Mobyduck

28-01-2018, 14:53

sheffield hatter

28-01-2018, 15:57

I'm with the Pope on this one:http://protzonbeer.co.uk/comments/2018/01/28/why-camra-must-embrace-good-beer
though I'm less than enthused by CAMRA internal politics.I recently rejoined CAMRA after about 20 years, and frankly not much has changed.

Being in favour of "good beer" sounds superficially attractive. The problem comes when you try to define what is good. Protz mentions that Beavertown beers "are not filtered, fined or pasteurised and they’re served by light gas pressure, nothing like the fizzed-up abominations of yesteryear." Try writing that into the articles of the campaign for real ale. If I walk into a bar selling only keg beers, am I going to be ok drinking Beavertown and Cloudwater, but need to steer clear of Camden and Meantime? And what about Brewdog?

Last year I visited St Andrews and went in the St Andrews Brewery (https://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/83428/) tap. The beer was cold and gassy and indistinguishable from Watneys Red Barrel, or for a more contemporaneous analogy, as cold and gassy as any bog standard Scottish 80/- on keg. I'm sure the brewers at St Andrews Brewery think they are producing a classy, quality drink. As the guy in the pub said to me, this is how his customers expect the beer to be served; and they apparently don't mind paying £5.70 a pint for it.

Well, not me.

Quinno

28-01-2018, 21:45

Being in favour of "good beer" sounds superficially attractive. The problem comes when you try to define what is good. Protz mentions that Beavertown beers "are not filtered, fined or pasteurised and they’re served by light gas pressure, nothing like the fizzed-up abominations of yesteryear.".

Personally, I find Beavertown beers pretty dull. But if they are deemed as genius, who am I to argue?

Bucking Fastard

28-01-2018, 21:52

AlanH

28-01-2018, 23:30

I'm with the Pope on this one:http://protzonbeer.co.uk/comments/2018/01/28/why-camra-must-embrace-good-beer
though I'm less than enthused by CAMRA internal politics.I recently rejoined CAMRA after about 20 years, and frankly not much has changed.

I agree that we should "Embrace" a good quality keg beer like I will embrace a good quality cheese or a good bottle of wine. This is quite different from when we had to "Campaign" for our Real Ale in the '70's to stop it vanishing from our pubs. Now that there is more cask ale about, we should be Campaigning for consistent top quality Real Ale. Drink the craft keg if you like it but lets stop pretending that there is nothing to campaign about to keep good cask ale. Craft keg is already safe as the young drinkers like it and it is not going to go off in three to five days. We are not going to get the young to join Camra and drink "the old man's drink" but it seems we have to show them we are trendy and not 'old gits' by selling craft keg at a beer festival of "The Campaign for Real Ale!" What is there to gain from this? Profit I suppose.
I have not drank as much craft (keg?) as most people because I have not enjoyed what I have had. I might have been unlucky in my choices but what I have had has been too chilled for my palate and a little too gassy. Some has had bubbles rising like lager or lemonade. Some has taken 20 minutes to warm up before the flavour has come through before I can say "Yes, this has got more flavour than John Smiths!"
Recently a landlord bought me a half of Goose IPA to try. This was the best that I have had as it was not too gassy or too cold. I could taste the fine flavour quite quickly. Then I thought to myself 'Wouldn't this taste brilliant in cask form!!

sheffield hatter

29-01-2018, 09:48

I have not drank as much craft (keg?) as most people because I have not enjoyed what I have had. I might have been unlucky in my choices but what I have had has been too chilled for my palate and a little too gassy. Some has had bubbles rising like lager or lemonade. Some has taken 20 minutes to warm up before the flavour has come through before I can say "Yes, this has got more flavour than John Smiths!"
Recently a landlord bought me a half of Goose IPA to try. This was the best that I have had as it was not too gassy or too cold. I could taste the fine flavour quite quickly. Then I thought to myself 'Wouldn't this taste brilliant in cask form!!

My experience exactly. (Apart from being bought a half by the landlord, of course. That's just you.) I had a pint of Goose IPA recently and it had no discernible flavour at all. Why? Because it was full of gas and freezing cold. The Campaign for Real Ale is against this sort of beer. And so am I. If people want to drink this sort of thing, let them drink it. But Camra should not allow beers like this at real ale festivals and they shouldn't form any part of the campaigning purpose of the organisation.

NickDavies

29-01-2018, 09:58

Much of the discussion tends to be appropriate for town and city centre pubs with enough footfall to justify a choice of styles. And these tend to be the sort of pubs that get reviewed often here, and appear in the GBG and local guides and Camra branch magazines. But wander into suburbia and on to the villages - and by the way many hotel bars - and it's a different story. you very often find a single pump in use often badged for Pride or Doombar or some GK abomination. You wonder why they bother, certainly early in the week. Should you be brave enough you may well get the first pint to be served in 18 hours. The efforts required to shift the air from the line tend to give things away. I've long stuck to Wifebeater on such occassions, often to the derision of my companions. Their derision tends to evaporate about half way down their pints, if not verging on the Sarsons's then at best flat and lifeless.

Many such pubs will never shift enough cask to make it viable, and I suspect it's only there by area manager edict to 'give people the choice'.

Thuck Phat

29-01-2018, 10:16

Recently a landlord bought me a half of Goose IPA to try. This was the best that I have had as it was not too gassy or too cold. I could taste the fine flavour quite quickly. Then I thought to myself 'Wouldn't this taste brilliant in cask form!!

This!
I've been converted to trying keg beer after a very unpleasant experience in Brewdog's early days of running bars and have thoroughly enjoyed most of it. There isn't any doubt that there is some very impressive beer served on keg but, I agree, I can't help wondering how much better it would be on cask.

AlanH

29-01-2018, 10:33

But wander into suburbia and on to the villages - and by the way many hotel bars - and it's a different story. you very often find a single pump in use often badged for Pride or Doombar or some GK abomination. You wonder why they bother, certainly early in the week. Should you be brave enough you may well get the first pint to be served in 18 hours. The efforts required to shift the air from the line tend to give things away.

Many such pubs will never shift enough cask to make it viable, and I suspect it's only there by area manager edict to 'give people the choice'.

The problem with these places is they start off with a poor beer like Doombore or GK. They probably are not given a choice by beer ties etc. They might stand a better chance if offered a decent cask ale. Even then, if sales are still low, this is where the cask breather would improve things or maybe a "key/cask" beer.

I believe for every pint of Craft Keg I drink, there is a pint and a half of Cask going off! (price differential or the relative speed I can drink it!).

Cask may start to vanish when us 'old gits' are not around anymore but I don't intend to help it vanish sooner!

Mobyduck

29-01-2018, 19:19

Cask may start to vanish when us 'old gits' are not around anymore but I don't intend to help it vanish sooner!
I make you right here, however if confronted with flat Doombore or similar with no other cask choice I am happy to take the keg route i.e Stella , Guinness or better still a decent craft offering, though this is not likely out in the sticks.

Aqualung

29-01-2018, 19:25

The problem with all this is that it's impossible to define what is good and what is bad. I was told by a bloke in a random Northern pub that Wainwright was his favourite beer. I know a bloke in the Chingford Spoons who thinks that Spitfire is wonderful. I think they're both wrong and the beers are rubbish! There are keg beers that shine and cask beers that shine. It's no good pronouncing Wainwright and Spitfire as rubbish just because I say so or even worse some CAMRA committee.
Even on these forums there is disagreement over how good Titanic Plum Porter is. I don't think I've ever had more than one single pint at a time, If it was a cider it wouldn't even be classed as a "Real Cider"!
My biggest objection to "craft" keg is the generally over inflated prices.

Mobyduck

29-01-2018, 20:31

My biggest objection to "craft" keg is the generally over inflated prices.
Me too, but sometimes whatever the price its worth a 1/3.

Mobyduck

29-01-2018, 20:32

Me too, but sometimes whatever the price its worth a 1/3.

And I dont mean one and thrupence. :)

Aqualung

29-01-2018, 20:59

Me too, but sometimes whatever the price its worth a 1/3.
I only do pints although I did have an aberration in Shrewsbury with a single tin of Beavertown Humuloid Double IPA and have never managed a pint of the 22% Brodie's Elizabethan. The other annoying thing about "craft" is that many of the beers are only sold in thirds, halves or two thirds and some places don't even do pint glasses. The only reason they do this is to make it more expensive.

NickDavies

29-01-2018, 21:27

Must admit I don't get excited about the price. Age helps. The days when I sit down to more than a couple of pints are rare, indeed I'm more likely to keep to just the one. Whether that costs a fiver somewhere fancy in London or £1.99 in the local JDW doesn't really matter.

Thuck Phat

30-01-2018, 10:20

Last couple days of Tryanuary's focus on quality over quantity.

oldboots

30-01-2018, 15:31

https://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/Article/2018/01/29/Opinion-Pete-Brown-backs-CAMRA-proposal

Pedro Broon is on the case! As he's in favour it may be a load of Carillions.

london calling

30-01-2018, 20:11

Come to London if you want good condition craft keg.Not had a too fizzy beer in years.Definitely colder than cask but not that noticeably really and that is how the drinkers like it.Had 3 ice cold cask beers in the Sussex Arms last night and it spoilt the beer for me as I don't mind cask being at the top of the temp range it should be served at.

hondo

02-02-2018, 09:24

:whistle:Rebel Rebel, how could they know?
Hot tramp, I love you so!:whistle:
https://www.tinyrebel.co.uk/news/make-camra-great-again/

sheffield hatter

02-02-2018, 10:25

https://www.tinyrebel.co.uk/news/make-camra-great-again/

Interesting!

(Still can't stand Cwtch though.)

Mobyduck

02-02-2018, 19:01

Interesting!

(Still can't stand Cwtch though.)

Thats what makes life interesting, love Cwtch. :D

Quinno

05-02-2018, 20:31

Here it is then

https://drive.google.com/file/d/14S-kZzo-uNYYX-1dsJPZnQhUwcIpDytg/view

Bit of a mixed bag.

sheffield hatter

05-02-2018, 23:08

Here it is then

https://drive.google.com/file/d/14S-kZzo-uNYYX-1dsJPZnQhUwcIpDytg/view

Bit of a mixed bag.

Interesting!

(Still can't stand Cwtch though.)

[I know - Groundhog Day was last Friday, but I couldn't resist. Memo to self: must try to take Revitalisation more seriously.]

oldboots

06-02-2018, 16:17

Here it is then

https://drive.google.com/file/d/14S-kZzo-uNYYX-1dsJPZnQhUwcIpDytg/view

Bit of a mixed bag.

And an interesting response here (https://ladysinksthebooze.wordpress.com/2018/02/06/a-tiny-camra-rebellion-in-23-pages/).

Wasn't the idea "Brewers know beer best" one of the reasons CAMRA had to be founded? Marstons, Greene King or AB-INBev anyone?

sheffield hatter

06-02-2018, 17:04

And an interesting response here (https://ladysinksthebooze.wordpress.com/2018/02/06/a-tiny-camra-rebellion-in-23-pages/).

Yes, she's a good read. "Bradley Cummings actually uses the phrase ‘I am the reset button’, which surely he has never said out loud keeping a straight face." "We need big ideas, not just tiny rebels."

Wasn't the idea "Brewers know beer best" one of the reasons CAMRA had to be founded? Marstons, Greene King or AB-INBev anyone?

I assumed that accountants knew best. Certainly they seem to be in charge at the firms you mention. Have I got it wrong?

Mobyduck

06-02-2018, 19:17

CAMRA dying without it.
https://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/Article/2018/02/02/CAMRA-dying-without-Revitalisation-Project-says-Wimbledon-Brewery

london calling

06-02-2018, 20:07

He seems to have shot himself in the foot by saying he is getting rid of Wetherspoon vouchers if voted in.

NickDavies

06-02-2018, 21:25

He seems to have shot himself in the foot by saying he is getting rid of Wetherspoon vouchers if voted in.

Well he would, wouldn't he. Brewers taking over Camra is rather like the lunatics taking over the asylum.

sheffield hatter

06-02-2018, 22:09

CAMRA dying without it.
https://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/Article/2018/02/02/CAMRA-dying-without-Revitalisation-Project-says-Wimbledon-Brewery

...says another brewer...

hondo

07-02-2018, 05:56

Tandleman
http://tandlemanbeerblog.blogspot.co.uk/

oldboots

09-02-2018, 20:18

https://t.co/VYGc4dQ3D4

Camra's leading lights drumming up interest in voting for change.

Anyone spot what object(s) might be missing? :evilgrin:

oldboots

09-02-2018, 20:22

He seems to have shot himself in the foot by saying he is getting rid of Wetherspoon vouchers if voted in.

There's a noisy element on Discourse wants shot of them too; some because they think it compromises the Campaign, others because it attracts the wrong sort ie "non-believers".

rpadam

09-02-2018, 20:42

https://t.co/VYGc4dQ3D4

Camra's leading lights drumming up interest in voting for change.

Anyone spot what object(s) might be missing? :evilgrin:
Pull the other one!

Quinno

09-02-2018, 20:43

And an interesting response here (https://ladysinksthebooze.wordpress.com/2018/02/06/a-tiny-camra-rebellion-in-23-pages/).

Wasn't the idea "Brewers know beer best" one of the reasons CAMRA had to be founded? Marstons, Greene King or AB-INBev anyone?

Her response, whilst occasionally straying toward the intemperate, rather neatly encapsulates some of my initial thoughts as well. "Brewers know beer best" is a lot of cock-waving nonsense.

NickDavies

09-02-2018, 22:35

There's a noisy element on Discourse wants shot of them too; some because they think it compromises the Campaign, others because it attracts the wrong sort ie "non-believers".

Oh that's been going on always. The same people who whinge about Wot's Bruin taking expensive display ads from the big brewers. And it gets even whingier if the pint depicted is not deemed full enough.

Aqualung

09-02-2018, 23:05

"Brewers know beer best" is a lot of cock-waving nonsense.

One of the things that annoys me about some of the newer brewers is their decision to only produce unfined beers. I've heard people spouting on about beer not needing to be clear to be good and will go along with that only to a degree. The trouble is that cloudy beer often means there's something wrong with it and if these people get their way it will surely open the flood gates to second rate publicans and bar staff foisting poor cloudy beer onto the punters.
The Vegan argument is ridiculous as they are in a tiny minority and to me Vegan=Fruitcake. I know a few Vegetarians and respect their views even to the extent of occasionally trying and even cooking myself vegetarian meals, although I must admit the JDW vegetarian options aren't that great.

sheffield hatter

09-02-2018, 23:06

https://t.co/VYGc4dQ3D4

Camra's leading lights drumming up interest in voting for change.

Anyone spot what object(s) might be missing? :evilgrin:

No need for hand pumps when the future is keg.

sheffield hatter

09-02-2018, 23:16

The trouble is that cloudy beer often means there's something wrong with it and if these people get their way it will surely open the flood gates to second rate publicans and bar staff foisting poor cloudy beer onto the punters.

I agree. Second rate brewers, too.

The Vegan argument is ridiculous as they are in a tiny minority

A poor reason for rejecting the argument - what if they happen to be right? Does it matter that there are so few of them?

.. to me Vegan=Fruitcake.

...an even worse argument. When in a hole, stop digging. There are other ways of fining beer - it is not necessary to use isinglass.

I know a few Vegetarians and respect their views even to the extent of occasionally trying and even cooking myself vegetarian meals.

That's a little better. Bon appetite!

I must admit the JDW vegetarian options aren't that great.

What a surprise.