Giving up Cask [Archive] - Pubs Galore Forums

Bucking Fastard

02-01-2017, 09:56

I see that Cloudwater Brewery will be no longer producing Cask Beer as mentioned in this detailed Blog Post (http://cloudwaterbrew.co/blog/looking-back-whilst-pushing-forward).

That's a shame,I always considered them to be a quality brewer of real ale and would always have a pop at one of their brews if seen at the bar.Reading the blog ,I would conclude that they just want to produce higher margin keg and bottled beer and are prepared to ignore the possibility that the cask versions of these brews is the superior product,if properly conditioned in the cellar.

They've gone down the same route as BrewDog,Camden,Kernel,Meantime etc,etc,etc.

oldboots

02-01-2017, 10:12

I've never come across them, are they any good?

Yes they are good brewers, a bit of a shame some brewers feel they have to combat poor cellar work in this way, the same thing happened in the 1960s with disasterous results but I'm sure THAT won't happen this time round.

Quinno

02-01-2017, 12:13

Yes they are good brewers, a bit of a shame some brewers feel they have to combat poor cellar work in this way, the same thing happened in the 1960s with disasterous results but I'm sure THAT won't happen this time round.

If a Dark Star or Hawkshead go down the same route, I will begin to worry.

So far, it's been a handful of young start-ups (or they were at the time) that have gone down this path, presumably because;

1. There's more money to be made via pricing
2. Less labour-intensive (disposable packaging)
3. Lasts much longer at the bar
4. Doesn't require a huge amount of publican knowledge to make it work
5. The keg market has been conditioned (ho ho) to disregard appearence of the beer

I'll give Cloudwater credit for being relatively upfront and honest. Personally, the beers of theirs that made it down here in cask were often not that great so I can't get as welled-up as others about it.

From the Twits I see that Melissa Cole is on the stir, blaming CAMRA (though she's refused to say exactly how...)

Wittenden

02-01-2017, 12:27

They've gone down the same route as BrewDog,Camden,Kernel,Meantime etc,etc,etc.
Never seen Cloudwater here, though going by the PubCurmudgeon's photo on Twitter, they live up to their name.
Their loss, as I won't drink UK style beers on keg. I have been known to drink saison on keykeg, mainly because I haven't a clue as to how it should taste or appear.
There's plenty of decent cask beer to get on with, at a less frightening price.

oldboots

02-01-2017, 18:43

I've read through their blog about this in a little more detail and I think* it still boils down to the same couple of things as it did in the 1960s,

1. landlords can't keep our beer in cask form,
2. we'll make more money if we keg the beer

The old twittersphere has gone a bit bonkers on this one with people taking from it what they want, Melissa Cole for example giving poor old CAMRA a kicking as she thinks, along with every producer of "stuff", that they should be paid more for their product. Aw shucks guys, it's only beer; its 90-97% water, it's a mix of common grains boiled up with a weed and fermented with what amounts to a fungus, christ I've some yeast in my hair amongst other places ( I can't find the link to the beer fermented by that Czech model's vaginal fauna). Regardless of how "awesome" you think your beer is people have been making the stuff for millennia, FFS get a grip!

More comment and bollocks here

https://twitter.com/MelissaCole
https://twitter.com/tandleman
https://twitter.com/oldmudgie
https://twitter.com/BoakandBailey
https://twitter.com/WishboneBrewery

I'd invite those above to consider the total tax on beer and Pubco mark ups as part of this, it's obviously not a one dimensional equation.

* I've had a few and their blog is very boring

PS just noticed a bit of sense in here - http://boakandbailey.com/2017/01/breakfast-debate-is-the-cloudwater-news-the-end-of-the-world/

Aqualung

02-01-2017, 19:35

One of the differences between now and up to fifty years ago is that then (at least from a Southern perspective) the main cask products from the national brewers were complete rubbish with the exception of Bass and the odd Whitbread brew. National brewers today don't have any credentials at all let alone cask. The larger independent brewers tend to get laughed at and there are hundreds of micros producing decent or good beers and a select score or more (at a guess) producing exceptional beers. The loss of cask from this brewer whose beers I don't ever recall seeing won't even cause a ripple on this pond.

Thuck Phat

02-01-2017, 20:07

The loss of cask from this brewer whose beers I don't ever recall seeing won't even cause a ripple on this pond.

"Peace for our time."

london calling

02-01-2017, 21:03

I as a keg drinker am okay with their choice to drop cask.Why keep losing money producing cask when the pubs feck it up. I had 2 very good beers in the Bull at Highgate this week.They were quite warm which I didn't mind but any warmer and they would only be fit for the drain.This is casks big failing.Camra needs to get back to basics and do something about crap cask.

trainman

02-01-2017, 21:08

https://twitter.com/MelissaCole
]
So where is her comment on the matter? The link just offers some Cole(-manballs) tweets?

Mobyduck

02-01-2017, 21:13

So where is her comment on the matter? The link just offers some Cole(-manballs) tweets?

You have to scroll down 6 or 7 tweets.

oldboots

03-01-2017, 07:43

So where is her comment on the matter? The link just offers some Cole(-manballs) tweets?

https://twitter.com/MelissaCole/status/815856568227004416

I don't normally agree with totalcurtis but he has some sensible things to say, as do some of the comments here (https://www.totalales.co.uk/blog/2017/1/2/cloudbursting-unpacking-cloudwaters-decision-to-drop-cask-beer).

Bucking Fastard

03-01-2017, 09:51

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I don't normally agree with totalcurtis but he has some sensible things to say, as do some of the comments here (https://www.totalales.co.uk/blog/2017/1/2/cloudbursting-unpacking-cloudwaters-decision-to-drop-cask-beer).

Agreed,some very valid points .CAMRA has a large task ahead if an innovative producer of quality real ale such as Cloudwater abandons cask.Education is important especially with regard to hazy/unfined ales,maybe CAMRA should work with brewers to produce clear notation on the pump clip.Perhaps a CAMRA branded symbol could be developed ?

I would be concerned that the younger generation of beer drinkers,who are seeking innovative brews across a wide range of styles and ABV's ,will one day only find what they want to drink on keg.CAMRA needs to cross the rubicon and admit that not all real ale is a good product.I know that peoples tastes vary enormously but IMHO there are several nationally available real ale brands which,even in peak condition,are rather insipid and give real ale a bad name.

Mobyduck

03-01-2017, 18:53

Agreed,some very valid points .CAMRA has a large task ahead if an innovative producer of quality real ale such as Cloudwater abandons cask.Education is important especially with regard to hazy/unfined ales,maybe CAMRA should work with brewers to produce clear notation on the pump clip.Perhaps a CAMRA branded symbol could be developed ?
Trouble is there is quite a wide divide within CAMRA, many of the old school have their heads in the sand and have no understanding of "modern keg" whatsoever, as far as they are concerned its the same as Watneys,(Doom Bar and London Pride are king) until they give way (or die out) it will be an uphill struggle.There is a younger and more open minded faction but in the main don't hold the strings of power.

london calling

03-01-2017, 19:44

If someone could create a link to Beer Nouveau blog you will see the reality behind the cost of beer for a small brewer. cheers john

Aqualung

03-01-2017, 20:02

If someone could create a link to Beer Nouveau blog you will see the reality behind the cost of beer for a small brewer. cheers john

Is this what you mean?

http://beernouveau.co.uk/blog/

Quinno

03-01-2017, 21:17

Agreed,some very valid points .CAMRA has a large task ahead if an innovative producer of quality real ale such as Cloudwater abandons cask.Education is important especially with regard to hazy/unfined ales,maybe CAMRA should work with brewers to produce clear notation on the pump clip.Perhaps a CAMRA branded symbol could be developed ?.

Certain brewers and pubs don't help themselves by chucking out murky beer with no reference to it at the point of sale and expect the consumer to just suck it up and just accept whatever slop is in the glass. This industry is one of the laziest and pig-headed going when it comes to treating the consumer with respect. The 'like it or lump it' attutude of 30 years ago is still pervaisive.

Aqualung

03-01-2017, 21:35

Certain brewers and pubs don't help themselves by chucking out murky beer with no reference to it at the point of sale and expect the consumer to just suck it up and just accept whatever slop is in the glass. This industry is one of the laziest and pig-headed going when it comes to treating the consumer with respect. The 'like it or lump it' attutude of 30 years ago is still pervaisive.

And it's also always had more than it's fair share of charlatans and thieves. It's always nice to visit pubs that are honest and up front but I suspect that they are in the minority. Even in the JDW Wanstead George I was given a hopelessly short measure last week and the bar harridan wasn't too pleased at my request for a top up.

ROBCamra

04-01-2017, 08:33

Is this what you mean?

http://beernouveau.co.uk/blog/

Beer Nouveau have a problem in that their beer just isn't that good.

If it was better then they would be brewing more often than 5 times per month.

Peterloo Porter isn't really a porter at all and Sister To Nun was both hazy and insipid whilst on the bar in December.

They won't be coming back for some time, if ever.

ROBCamra

04-01-2017, 08:45

Certain brewers and pubs don't help themselves by chucking out murky beer with no reference to it at the point of sale.

Totally correct Quinno. We often have to write "unfined" on the back of the pumpclip and ask all the staff
to ensure that the customer knows what they're getting before complaining that it isn't clear and wanting to change it.

Commercial suicide if you don't as plenty of good beer goes down the drain.

Only rarely do I get told that the beer is "London murky" when ordering it.

I've complained to our many suppliers about it and a couple have now started to put "unfined" in the description
that they send out when mailing their cask availability to me.

Some of the brews we get in don't even claim to be vegetarian or vegan, which is the excuse for murky beer as they don't use finings.

In general murky beer is lazy, crap brewing and long may it fail.

Bottom line is that the big cities can get away with murky beer because there are enough hipsters around there to allow them to do so.

Provincial towns can't get away with it at all. Number of hipsters aound here? About 9.:D

oldboots

04-01-2017, 10:19

Bucking Fastard

04-01-2017, 13:08

I see there's a nasty little anti-camra rant from Martyn Cornell hanging rather tenuously off the Cloudwater story http://forums.pubsgalore.co.uk/showthread.php?24963-The-Zythophile-Cloudwater-quality-and-Camra-dinosaurs

He is absolutely correct about quality being Cask's Achillies heel but we all know that and remember CAMRA gets a lot of stick for telling brewers and publicans when they get it wrong, (probably from Mr Cornell in the past).

I dont like his focus on mortality rates for CAMRA members,that seems in bad taste.

I agree that quality is cask's acillies heel but surely a respected cask ale micro brewer should consider whether an outlet that wants to buy their casks is able to condition and serve their high quality product correctly. If not,dont supply them.Otherwise mystery shop the outlets to check that your brand isn't being undermined at retail.

Oakham have the Oakademy of Excellence award to signify outlets that meet their high quality standards.And Marble are very fussy who they will supply.

Wittenden

04-01-2017, 13:19

I agree that quality is cask's acillies heel but surely a respected cask ale micro brewer should consider whether an outlet that wants to buy their casks is able to condition and serve their high quality product correctly. If not,dont supply them.Otherwise mystery shop the outlets to check that your brand isn't being undermined at retail.

.
Trouble is,if they sell to an agent/wholesaler, the brewer has little or no control over what happens in the pub cellar.

Bucking Fastard

04-01-2017, 14:45

Trouble is,if they sell to an agent/wholesaler, the brewer has little or no control over what happens in the pub cellar.

A very good point and that's a business decision for the brewer to make.Using a distributor is asking for trouble IMHO and can't be laid at the door of CAMRA,unless the ultimate retailer is in the GBG.

ROBCamra

04-01-2017, 17:36

Trouble is,if they sell to an agent/wholesaler, the brewer has little or no control over what happens in the pub cellar.

Cloudwater certainly sell cask to at least one wholesaler in Direct Drinks.

london calling

04-01-2017, 19:50

oldboots

05-01-2017, 07:36

Camra must share some blame for publishing the Good Beer guide and including pubs that don't actually sell good beer.A few branches don't even take the beer ratings into account when they decide on the pubs to be entered.

Although I'm biased, I've always found it a good guide to decent beer. The main problem is the time between selection and publication, CAMRA branches will be making the selection next month and the 2018 edition publication is in mid September, so half way through its life it's at least a year out of date. The same goes for Cask Marque, I've never had a problem with it, bar temperature of course, but I know many people don't rate them.

hondo

05-01-2017, 09:16

"What do we have in store for us in 2017? Where am I going and where is Hardknott going?"
http://hardknott.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/looking-forward.html

london calling

05-01-2017, 19:22

"What do we have in store for us in 2017? Where am I going and where is Hardknott going?"
http://hardknott.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/looking-forward.html
Been following his blog for about 10 years and his biggest problem is he is based in Cumbria .He is in the middle of nowhere for selling beer.Good beer imo.

hondo

06-01-2017, 07:57

"This exercise - and the very specific period of time it covers - was prompted by an article"
http://www.stonch.co.uk/

trainman

06-01-2017, 10:20

http://www.stonch.co.uk/
Stonch hadn't visited Sheffield before 2016? Incredible.
But what does he mean suggesting that Lancs has a chip on its shoulder?

Btw, has Sheffield not been on the agenda to host the PuG bandwagon? Also rather incredible...

ROBCamra

06-01-2017, 10:32

But what does he mean suggesting that Lancs has a chip on its shoulder?

He managed the Piccadilly Tap for a little while, he wasn't very popular with the locals.

The chip may well be on his own shoulder:evilgrin:

london calling

06-01-2017, 23:10

I have also followed Stonch,s blog for the last 10 years and have long ago come to the conclusion he knows nothing about beer.I have only read his posts to see what crap he is going to post next.He did run a pretty good pub in London for a while but he only served beers he thought were good but the the public and he were at odds.Wanker.