Pub facilities and data geekery [Archive]

Dave M

25-09-2015, 17:25

I've split some posts out from the bar billiards thread as it seemed like a nice idea to not let that one drift off topic completely.

We started discussing the pub facilities stuff in a more general way from this point....

Reviving this thread has made me think - Dave, can you set-up another facilities filler that picks out 'bar billiard' for us (me!) to tick off?

Do you mean a tool for checking reviews for a mention of 'bar billiards' like I did for real ales? Something like http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/tools/check-reviews.php?pagefacid=107 (there are only 20 that need checking)

Quinno

25-09-2015, 18:07

Do you mean a tool for checking reviews for a mention of 'bar billiards' like I did for real ales? Something like http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/tools/check-reviews.php?pagefacid=107 (there are only 20 that need checking)

That's the one!

All done :D

Might be worth rolling out some others? I know I'm bang up-to-date reviews-wise (until tomorrow!) and am happy to do some clicking-through on categories...

bcfczuluarmy

25-09-2015, 18:44

Does a current check of facilities get undertaken as I've revisited bar billiards pubs to find they've been removed...

Also the potential to search for Cavery and add them as a facility?

Dave M

25-09-2015, 19:13

Might be worth rolling out some others? I know I'm bang up-to-date reviews-wise (until tomorrow!) and am happy to do some clicking-through on categories...

Feel free to stab at any of these, if there are others you'd prefer then I can try to set them up.

Pool table (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/tools/check-reviews.php?pagefacid=104)
Dogs (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/tools/check-reviews.php?pagefacid=105)
Karaoke (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/tools/check-reviews.php?pagefacid=106)
Quiz night (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/tools/check-reviews.php?pagefacid=109)
Beer Garden (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/tools/check-reviews.php?pagefacid=114)
Pinball (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/tools/check-reviews.php?pagefacid=116)

Does a current check of facilities get undertaken as I've revisited bar billiards pubs to find they've been removed...
Not as such, the hope is that in those situations you'd just switch it to no. This tool only checks pubs where it is currently set to unknown.

Also the potential to search for Cavery and add them as a facility?

It is certainly something I've considered, may get added at some point in the future.

bcfczuluarmy

25-09-2015, 19:27

I had gone down in numbers from 107 and found the other searches. The idea of 3900+ pool table references fills me with dread...

On a side note I got 2016 GBG Sat Nav POI file in varying formats do you want to make a http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pub-features/2015/cask-ale-week-free-pint/ style link for those to assist none Camra members to pubs in the guide or is that some sort of copyright issue?

Aqualung

25-09-2015, 20:25

Dave M

25-09-2015, 20:40

assist none Camra members to pubs in the guide or is that some sort of copyright issue?

Potential copyright issue I'm afraid. We contacted CAMRA a few years ago to ask permission to highlight pubs that were GBG listed, sadly they never got back to us.

Is there a danger of having just too many options?

Definitely. I do keep wondering how best to keep things useful whilst not overwhelming.

Aqualung

25-09-2015, 21:20

Potential copyright issue I'm afraid. We contacted CAMRA a few years ago to ask permission to highlight pubs that were GBG listed, sadly they never got back to us.

I know for a fact that I and other people try and mention in the review that it is GBG 201n listed. Surely that's good enough? Like the CAMRA discount I sometimes or even often forget.

london calling

25-09-2015, 22:51

Potential copyright issue I'm afraid. We contacted CAMRA a few years ago to ask permission to highlight pubs that were GBG listed, sadly they never got back to us.

Definitely. I do keep wondering how best to keep things useful whilst not overwhelming.
Why worry about gbg pubs .The latest Cask report published this week found only a small percentage of drinkers care if its GBG listed and even fewer care about Cask Marque.

Mobyduck

26-09-2015, 06:54

Why worry about gbg pubs .The latest Cask report published this week found only a small percentage of drinkers care if its GBG listed and even fewer care about Cask Marque.

To me Cask Marque has always meant ,approach with caution and more often than not expect cold unexciting beer.

ETA

01-10-2015, 10:26

At the end of the day, a GBG entry only means that the pub is one favoured by CAMRA members in the geographic area and is one of a quota - sometimes pubs with less good ale are used to fill the quota, while in other areas pubs with first class beer and excellent cellar standards are omitted because the quota has been exceeded or even worse, the landlord has fallen out with the local branch.

I would far rather trust the judgement of some of the people on this site - many of whose reviews have proven spot-on when it comes to beer quality - than I would a book which is out of date as soon as it is published and whose totality is questionable.

Yes, I am a CAMRA member, yes, I have written some of GBG's entries, no I won't toe the party line if I think it's wrong.

Dave M

02-10-2015, 20:10

The valid point from Aqualung about there being too many options got me thinking.

From the perspective of the user experience there can definitely be too many options, it can be messy and confusing and eventually counter productive. Yes I agree that a lot may not care if a pub is GBG listed or if it has Cask Marque.

However I am a data geek
As far as I'm concerned there's no limit to the amount of discrete bits of information about a pub I can have available. Ideally I'd like to be able to build in a system whereby you can look at a town and I'll be able to list the pubs in order of how likely you are to be interested in them, clearly it would never be perfect, but it could be interesting. Expect some geeky posts to follow as and when I have time.

Dave M

02-10-2015, 21:02

To me Cask Marque has always meant ,approach with caution and more often than not expect cold unexciting beer.

Interesting one, I've just done a quick analysis of your ratings, this isn't perfect and is based on somewhat out of date info:-

Average rating of pubs with no real ale: 4.83
Average rating of pubs with real ale: 6.34
Average rating of Cask Marque pubs: 5.83
Average rating of non Cask Marque real ale pubs: 6.60

Mobyduck

03-10-2015, 07:18

Interesting one, I've just done a quick analysis of your ratings, this isn't perfect and is based on somewhat out of date info:-

Average rating of pubs with no real ale: 4.83
Average rating of pubs with real ale: 6.34
Average rating of Cask Marque pubs: 5.83
Average rating of non Cask Marque real ale pubs: 6.60

That is interesting ,thanks Dave, also nice to know I don't talk total bollocks all the time. :)

Aqualung

03-10-2015, 09:47

I've never taken any notice of Cask Marque and have little knowledge of the exact working of it although I understand the principles involved.
Surely a GBG option in pub details would be a breach of copyright. It would also need constant updating. If you're going to specify year of entry how far do you go back?

oldboots

03-10-2015, 16:15

That is interesting ,thanks Dave, also nice to know I don't talk total bollocks all the time. :)

I suppose that depends on whither you are rating the pub or just the beer a la Whatpub.

oldboots

03-10-2015, 16:19

At the end of the day, a GBG entry only means that the pub is one favoured by CAMRA members in the geographic area and is one of a quota....

To be fair to the dear old campaign, of which I too am a member, there is a move towards a more objective system based on Whatpub scores - long way to go but it's moving in the right direction

Al 10000

03-10-2015, 16:40

I suppose that depends on whither you are rating the pub or just the beer a la Whatpub.

I always rate the pub,not the beer,the pub always comes first,then the beer,i do if possible drink real ale,which i have been doing from my late teens.

It would be interesting to have that sort of data for all members to look at,also what happened to the graph thingy you were on about doing Dave.

Mobyduck

03-10-2015, 17:35

I suppose that depends on whither you are rating the pub or just the beer a la Whatpub.
Good point, for me now its 50/50, pub used to rule but beer choice is now beginning to have a major say in the matter.

Dave M

04-10-2015, 19:59

It would be interesting to have that sort of data for all members to look at,also what happened to the graph thingy you were on about doing Dave.
Good point, I was going to do a table of ratings something like this I believe (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/userinfo/ratings/).

ETA

04-10-2015, 21:04

AlanH

05-10-2015, 07:21

Also in the spirit of geekery, I've been keeping my own records and have a mean score of 5.68 and a mode of 6. 1SD is around 274. This includes values recorded on the other side and the Gibralter/CI pubs which aren't on the main site, so may be different to the ones on PuG, but it would be interesting to see the difference.

Tony o'Sullivan has a mode of "10" on the ratings I've seen! His average must be about 9.98.
The pub he scored 8 must have been pretty poor!

Dave M

05-10-2015, 08:07

Tony o'Sullivan has a mode of "10" on the ratings I've seen! His average must be about 9.98.
The pub he scored 8 must have been pretty poor!

Well spotted, just checked and he has given 1 x 4, 8 x 8 and 76 x 10

Al 10000

05-10-2015, 16:21

Well spotted, just checked and he has given 1 x 4, 8 x 8 and 76 x 10

Thanks Dave,

That was what i was thinking of,how do you see other members ratings,AlanH found one out but i dont how to do this.

Cheers Alan

Quinno

05-10-2015, 17:18

Good point, I was going to do a table of ratings something like this I believe (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/userinfo/ratings/).

Ohhh I like this!! However mine says I haven't given any 'unrateds' - which I have (all my local CAMRA branch pubs, mainly). NULL values rather than '0'...?

Dave M

05-10-2015, 18:14

Thanks Dave,

That was what i was thinking of,how do you see other members ratings,AlanH found one out but i dont how to do this.

Cheers Alan

I think AlanH has just noticed that the user in question almost always gives 10, there isn't a way to see stats for others.

Ohhh I like this!! However mine says I haven't given any 'unrateds' - which I have (all my local CAMRA branch pubs, mainly). NULL values rather than '0'...?

Yep, you got it, I had "SELECT rating, count(rating) FROM ...." but it wont let you count a bunch of NULLS.

Quinno

05-10-2015, 18:51

Yep, you got it, I had "SELECT rating, count(rating) FROM ...." but it wont let you count a bunch of NULLS.

Glad to be of service (I was doing some SQL earlier this afternoon) :D

bcfczuluarmy

05-10-2015, 19:16

Is there no way to have the ratings hyperlinked so if you click the numbers it opens up the pubs you've rated?

ROBCamra

05-10-2015, 19:17

Good point, I was going to do a table of ratings something like this I believe (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/userinfo/ratings/).

I've given 10 pubs a 10 !!!

I thought I was much more frugal than that.

And I can only think of 5 at the moment. :o

rpadam

05-10-2015, 19:48

Looking at my ratings for the presence or absence of certain facilities, the biggest net plus is real ale (no surprise) but the biggest net minus was hot food (when I was expecting it to be karaoke...).

On the PubCo scores, I apparently have Fuller's at the top (at 6.9714) and J D Wetherspoon (6.0610) at the bottom, with the others scattered around my 6.39 overall average score.

All good stuff - more stats welcome!

Dave M

05-10-2015, 20:06

Is there no way to have the ratings hyperlinked so if you click the numbers it opens up the pubs you've rated?

I'll look into it, can't promise when/if it'll happen.

I've given 10 pubs a 10 !!!

I thought I was much more frugal than that.

And I can only think of 5 at the moment. :o

It could be that there are only 5. I think that if you gave somewhere a 10, then reviewed it again and re-iterated the 10 it will count those as two. It is surprisingly awkward to deal with that for the purposes of this table!

Quinno

05-10-2015, 20:16

Is there no way to have the ratings hyperlinked so if you click the numbers it opens up the pubs you've rated?

That's a good idea, if not too onerous in terms of development. The My Contributions bit has needed a tidy-up for ages so this would help in terms of finding pubs quicker etc.

Quinno

05-10-2015, 20:20

It could be that there are only 5. I think that if you gave somewhere a 10, then reviewed it again and re-iterated the 10 it will count those as two. It is surprisingly awkward to deal with that for the purposes of this table!

Select distinct not cutting the mustard this time? ;)

Aqualung

05-10-2015, 20:59

This facility is raising a few questions for me :-

Are the stats based purely on whether a feature is set on or off?

Where do the pubco details come from? I've been to 10 Punch pubs according to this but no Fuller's pubs. The Harp in Central London is now a Fuller's pub and I reviewed it prior to that. Most pubs round my way are Enterprise which is where pub ownership becomes a minefield. I believe that my local Bell and Rose & Crown are still Enterprise owned despite them being on the face of it excellent Free Houses.

If Greene King Marston's and Fuller's pubs can be identified why not other independent brewers? I dare say that the answer is that pub ownership requires constant updating so could it be made accessible to members? I have my own lists of certain smaller brewery pubs but I believe in general these details are readily available on the internet. Again, this can be a minefield as I recall from 40 years ago and the Young's 135 days that most of the East London ones were on a long term lease from Whitbread. I'm sure some of the Antic pubs are leased through Enterprise or Punch. They can be easily identified by having a dull selection of beers.

I can't believe I have 66 pubs unrated, around 10% of the total. Is there a way these can be displayed?

Dave M

05-10-2015, 21:30

Select distinct not cutting the mustard this time? ;)
Sadly not quite.

This facility is raising a few questions for me :-

Are the stats based purely on whether a feature is set on or off?

Yep.

Where do the pubco details come from? I've been to 10 Punch pubs according to this but no Fuller's pubs. The Harp in Central London is now a Fuller's pub and I reviewed it prior to that. Most pubs round my way are Enterprise which is where pub ownership becomes a minefield. I believe that my local Bell and Rose & Crown are still Enterprise owned despite them being on the face of it excellent Free Houses.

If Greene King Marston's and Fuller's pubs can be identified why not other independent brewers? I dare say that the answer is that pub ownership requires constant updating so could it be made accessible to members? I have my own lists of certain smaller brewery pubs but I believe in general these details are readily available on the internet. Again, this can be a minefield as I recall from 40 years ago and the Young's 135 days that most of the East London ones were on a long term lease from Whitbread. I'm sure some of the Antic pubs are leased through Enterprise or Punch. They can be easily identified by having a dull selection of beers.

At the moment I'm collecting as much pubco info as I can where it is easily accessible in a format I can use, so it made sense to start with the biggest ones. I very much intend to open it up as something members will be able to keep up to date.

I only published the stats on rating as I thought it might be vaguely interesting however, not to draw any really serious conclusions. The Enterprise/Punch point is absolutely right, there will be some absolutely wonderful pubs and some awful ones. However having lists of their may help people spot pubs which are most under threat of closure.

I can't believe I have 66 pubs unrated, around 10% of the total. Is there a way these can be displayed?
Yeah, when I get round to it. Probably posts where you are supplying info such as The Village (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/25577/)

Aqualung

05-10-2015, 22:10

Probably posts where you are supplying info such as The Village (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/25577/)

Point taken but I will go back to earlier posts and review the "reviews".

Farway

06-10-2015, 12:16

I've given 10 pubs a 10 !!!

I thought I was much more frugal than that.

Same here just 10 got 10, 8 got 1

Mobyduck

06-10-2015, 13:18

I've given 10 pubs a 10 !!!

I thought I was much more frugal than that.

And I can only think of 5 at the moment. :o

Same here just 10 got 10, 8 got 1

Only 2x 10 for me,which sounds about right, trouble is I can only think of one of them.

Pubsignman

06-10-2015, 13:52

Only 2x 10 for me,which sounds about right, trouble is I can only think of one of them.

You've scored the Harp in Covent Garden with a 10 twice, so I presume that explains it.

Mobyduck

06-10-2015, 15:57

You've scored the Harp in Covent Garden with a 10 twice, so I presume that explains it.
I guess it does.

Al 10000

06-10-2015, 17:39

Al 10000

06-10-2015, 17:42

Good point, I was going to do a table of ratings something like this I believe (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/userinfo/ratings/).

Is it possible to have this put on the front page,on the Stats page,it would then not be lost in time.

Thanks Alan

Mobyduck

06-10-2015, 18:20

Is it possible to have this put on the front page,on the Stats page,it would then not be lost in time.

Thanks Alan

I bookmarked it just in case I lost it along the way.

Mobyduck

06-10-2015, 19:40

These are my pub review stats

Unrated:309
1 :3
2 :4
3 :21
4 :97
5 :432
6 :1110
7 :2181
8 :854
9 :119
10 :14

Average 6.74

Pub Group Stats

Fullers : 15: 7.200
Greene King : 96 :6.732
Heineken : 20 : 6.7778
Wetherspoons : 118 : 6.7203
Marstons : 207 : 6.8737
Mitchell & Butlers : 90 : 6.4828
Punch Taverns : 253 : 6.9711
Spirit : 58 : 6.5273

I would not have the faintest idea if i had been in a Spirit,Heineken,M&B or Punch pub.

I do have lists of nearly all independant brewery pubs from 2004,i wrote to all and all but two replied either sending me a proper guide to their pubs
or a list on A4 sheets,Youngs brewery even sent me a pin badge and Thwaites asked me to join in a PR promotion after i told them how many of their tied
houses i had done,i declined.

If any help is needed in adding independant brewery pubs to the site i would be pleased to help.

I find this quite fascinating, my stats, (obviously on a much smaller scale than Al's), are here -

Unrated - 29
2 - 1
3 - 9
4 - 24
5 - 75
6 - 102
7 - 97
8 - 68
9 - 11
10 - 2 ( although really 1, see post #39 )

Average 6.31

Pub Co's

Fullers - 13 - 6.5
Greene King - 14 - 5.4
Heineken - 1 - 6.0
J D Wetherspoon - 25 - 5.1
Marstons - 1 - 5.0
Mitchell & Butlers - 16 - 5.6
Punch Taverns - 18 - 6.0
Spirit Pubs - 4 - 4.8

Average 5.6

Also quite interesting. Going on these averages ,I obviously prefer Independent (Freehouse) or small pub co boozers,I don't actually need stats to confirm this, but of the chains mentioned Fullers come out tops, I'm not a great fan of their beers, some are OK, but I seem to be rating them on their pubs as opposed to beer.
J D W ,a group I tend to deride more than praise come out lower mid-table , although not a chain of choice, according to stats, I seem to go there more than anywhere else :confused:. That's convenience for you.
All good stuff though.

Quinno

06-10-2015, 19:59

#statporn - Fullers come out top for me as well. I guess they are doing something right (bar their prices).

The average rating I've given to pubs is: 6.29

Rating No. of times
Unrated 563
1 12
2 20
3 62
4 155
5 381
6 546
7 562
8 311
9 123
10 25

Average pub rating for PubCos
PubCo Average rating Number rated
Fuller's 6.3684 62
Greene King 5.8659 92
Heineken 5.6667 8
J D Wetherspoon 5.7761 139
Marstons 6.1500 44
Mitchells & Butlers 5.9634 106
Moles Brewery 6.0000 1
Punch Taverns 6.2644 94
Spirit Pubs 5.6296 36

sheffield hatter

06-10-2015, 21:16

Fullers come out top for me as well. I guess they are doing something right (bar their prices).

Spooky! (But I've only rated two of their pubs....)

Fuller's 7.0000 2
Greene King 5.2105 19
Heineken 4.0000 3
J D Wetherspoon 5.5000 11
Marstons 6.0455 50
Mitchells & Butlers 5.6667 13
New River Retail 5.0000 1
Punch Taverns 5.8636 72
Spirit Pubs 5.7500 9

The average rating I've given to pubs is: 5.98

Rating No. of times
Unrated 243
1 5
2 9
3 34
4 67
5 206
6 365
7 209
8 96
9 20
10 5

I'm quite pleased with the apparent shape of my bell curve, though the professional statisticians among you will no doubt want to quibble.

Quinno

06-10-2015, 21:24

I'm quite pleased with the apparent shape of my bell curve, though the professional statisticians among you will no doubt want to quibble.

Depends how often you go out on a mission to sample the whole range a geographic area offers and how often you self-select the ones you expect to be the cream of the crop...you tend to be more of the former so your bell curve fits nicely, I'd say. Mine's a bit more skewed :)

Bucking Fastard

07-10-2015, 17:24

Depends how often you go out on a mission to sample the whole range a geographic area offers and how often you self-select the ones you expect to be the cream of the crop...you tend to be more of the former so your bell curve fits nicely, I'd say. Mine's a bit more skewed :)

Thats a very good point,I often target a pub after research on PuG so self selecting a high score hopefully .If the pub comes up trumps ,often thats as far as I will explore that evening.:drinkup::drinkup::drinkup:

The average rating I've given to pubs is: 6.8
Rating No. of times
Unrated 57
2 7
3 11
4 67
5 97
6 253
7 341
8 241
9 77
10 36

london calling

08-10-2015, 18:46

Its good to see that Fullers seem to top the lists of quite a few.Although like Auqalung I don't like their prices they do have some very good pubs.

ETA

24-12-2015, 07:38

Is it worth adding skittle alleys to the list of features?

I know it means work, and I guess it's one of many things people may suggest, but it is a feature that people sometimes look for.

Just a suggestion.

Quinno

29-10-2017, 13:23

Feel free to stab at any of these, if there are others you'd prefer then I can try to set them up.

Pool table (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/tools/check-reviews.php?pagefacid=104)
Dogs (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/tools/check-reviews.php?pagefacid=105)
Karaoke (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/tools/check-reviews.php?pagefacid=106)
Quiz night (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/tools/check-reviews.php?pagefacid=109)
Beer Garden (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/tools/check-reviews.php?pagefacid=114)
Pinball (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/tools/check-reviews.php?pagefacid=116)

Not as such, the hope is that in those situations you'd just switch it to no. This tool only checks pubs where it is currently set to unknown.

It is certainly something I've considered, may get added at some point in the future.

OK so in an idle moment where I wanted to pass time but also concentrate on conversation, I clicked on these links - and apparently they have been completed! Can this be true? There were 1000's for garden when I last checked months back...