Updating pubs based on what pub

[bcfczuluarmy]

I've noticed while I've been in Dublin a lot of emails closing pubs as they have been marked as closed on what pub. Unless they have been rigorously verified I don't think we should be updating here on that basis as some camra areas are rubbish for keeping their areas up to date.

If I stumble on a pub they have as marked closed I will make an effort to confirm before I would mark it shut on here and I
I know my local group do the same if I inform them unless I send photo proof.


For example I need to still do The Hog (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/12793/) but is marked closed. However their Facebook site has an update from Friday. https://m.facebook.com/thehoghorsley?refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.co.uk %2F&_rdr and future events.

People's thoughts welcome.

P.s not an attack on person that shut the above pub or any others I may have received.

[Gann]

In General agreement...

There are other sources for pubs being closed (god forbid the Dark Side), but I always try to get additional proof before posting here..

Some local CAMRA branches are very accurate with their information on WhatPub, others less so as mentioned.
Whilst in Mid Wales this year I visited two closed pubs that WhatPub indicated as open and found two functioning pubs that WhatPub had as closed..
There is nothing better than a visit, but when not possible a couple sources of confirmation should be looked for IMHO..

[ROBCamra]

Unless they have been rigorously verified I don't think we should be updating here on that basis as some camra areas are rubbish for keeping their areas up to date.


Correct. That's why they're being done one by one rather than a block close.

At the moment Whatpub is proving to be right about 80% of the time.

East Lancashire & Gloucestershire CAMRA for example are really crap. Many of the others are very good.

I've also been reopening a lot of pubs as well.

One thing we're not good at is following things through.

I've found a lot of pubs have been marked closed for a refurb and then not reopened again when the refurb is complete.

This is being done with the blessing and technical assistance of Dave M.

Yes, there will no doubt be a few errors along the way, but at the moment there are potentially 2800 errors :cheers:

[Quinno]

Correct. That's why they're being done one by one rather than a block close.

At the moment Whatpub is proving to be right about 80% of the time.

East Lancashire & Gloucestershire CAMRA for example are really crap. Many of the others are very good.

I've also been reopening a lot of pubs as well.

One thing we're not good at is following things through.

I've found a lot of pubs have been marked closed for a refurb and then not reopened again when the refurb is complete.

This is being done with the blessing and technical assistance of Dave M.

Yes, there will no doubt be a few errors along the way, but at the moment there are potentially 2800 errors :cheers:

I thought someone had been busy! :D

[Oggwyn Trench]

Telford and East Shropshire is so bad its funny , at least a dozen closed pubs listed as open including some that have been demolished long ago , plus hotels and restuarants that do not have public bars , golf clubs and best of all a young offenders bale hostel :muppet::D

[AlanH]

As Gloucester Camra still have The Hog listed as the Bell and Castle at the same address, last reviewed in 2012, they are clearly not up to date. They have the nearby Tipputs, reviewed 2010, listed as open but closed on PuG in a 2014 review.

[Aqualung]

I've found a lot of pubs have been marked closed for a refurb and then not reopened again when the refurb is complete.



As someone who due to a memory management violation recently marked an open Spoons as having closed last year, I'm not sure I should be saying anything here!
Surely if a pub is known to be only closed for a refurbishment it would be better to add a review to say that rather than mark it as closed? It's annoying to find a pub closed as recently happened to me but it can also happen for a private function or party.

[Lady Grey]

The best method of checking whether a pub has closed or has reopened, is to go there and see for yourself.




I've also been reopening a lot of pubs as well.

One thing we're not good at is following things through.

I've found a lot of pubs have been marked closed for a refurb and then not reopened again when the refurb is complete.

I need to check up on a few places that have reopened after refurbishment. I'm not sure if "Ange Noir" in Cheltenham (formally D-Fly) requires an entrance fee to get in.

[ROBCamra]

The best method of checking whether a pub has closed or has reopened, is to go there and see for yourself.



Very true. I've got quite a few queries in Perth & Aberdeen. Off you go then. ;):evilgrin:

[gillhalfpint]

I have been round 8 pubs in Minehead, and took some photos, but this site has the correct name for the pubs, but on at least 2 I noticed the photo had an incorrect name showing on the pub. If the name has changed, surely the photos with the old name should not be showing when you go to look at the pub on the site.

[oldboots]

If the name has changed, surely the photos with the old name should not be showing when you go to look at the pub on the site.

It's interesting to see how a pub evolves over time, however I think the best we can do here is to use the don't show on main page button unless there's only an old pic available. I wouldn't delete any pics of a pub unless it's a poor pic and a better pic of the pub in the same condition is available. I'd rather have an out of date from a moving bus in the rain shot than no pic if there's no review.

[gillhalfpint]

It's interesting to see how a pub evolves over time, however I think the best we can do here is to use the don't show on main page button unless there's only an old pic available. I wouldn't delete any pics of a pub unless it's a poor pic and a better pic of the pub in the same condition is available. I'd rather have an out of date from a moving bus in the rain shot than no pic if there's no review.

Yes, I can see the historic value of the photos. I decided in the end not to carry on loading photos, as mine were similar to the one showing, but got confused when a different name was showing up when I went on site.

[bcfczuluarmy]

Further to the updates Rob has been doing I reviewed the email again now back from Dublin and my OCD needs a spread sheet hit and noted that some pubs Whatpub will close on the pub definition actually remain places where you can walk into and still obtain a drink with no obligation for anything else.

The King's Head House (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/12785/) being such an example however I've not been past since to confirm it's still open as the conference, dining and accommodation venue as seen from the web link http://www.thekingsheadhouse.com/ however I'll be 2 minutes away tomorrow so may swing by, although this opens the debate of should it still be classed as a pub etc. First rule was passed on my visit. Beer sold without any other obligation, Check.

Also I've just got an Autumn Tippler magazine from http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/64046/ tonight and a lot of the updates are reported in it so Glos may be getting their act together a little.

[gillhalfpint]

I loaded photos for 8 Minehead pubs on 13 Sept and had the automatic reply same day. Had an e-mail this morning from Somerset CAMRA thanking me for photos. I am happy enough with the Whatpub service.

[ROBCamra]

One thing that I'm finding very strange is that for example...

Someone spends £350,000 buying and refurbishing a closed pub.

They spend a few more grand having a website built.

They DON'T spend 15 minutes telling PuG, BITE, Whatpub etc that it's reopened and what they're doing.

Crazy. Their marketing people don't know what they're doing.:muppet::muppet:

[ROBCamra]

I thought someone had been busy! :D

One for you to check out next time you're out and about in Aberystwyth.

Irie's Lounge & Restaurant (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/61974/) the ex Aber Vaults.

Now a Carribean restaurant, but has a lounge area.

Can you just go in for a drink?

[bcfczuluarmy]

Think we could have Glos confusion in Nailsworth potentially as The George Inn (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/12808/) has been shut based on being http://whatpub.com/pubs/GLO/0353/george-hotel-nailsworth which was a pub/hotel on the central roundabout in Nailsworth that was converted to shops/flats yonks ago. Think Whatpub have got confused with the venues possibly although postcode and map point are matched to George Inn and description... http://www.nailsworth.com/index.aspx?pageid=8&sub=0&pagetitle=Old-George-Hotel but they still have http://whatpub.com/pubs/GLO/0363/george-inn-newmarket as open.

I need to go back to Nailsworth as the pub in Horsley that started this thread has actually knocked Monday opening on the head after attempting a visit this Monday which I feel was mildly ironic and highly annoying but there is still another visit needed in that area so just an annoyance and a mild delay as it was a slight detour.

[Pubsignman]

One thing we're not good at is following things through.

I've found a lot of pubs have been marked closed for a refurb and then not reopened again when the refurb is complete.


With this in mind, would it be an idea to have a thread where contributors can post about temporarily closed pubs or pubs that are due to open/reopen so that these can be periodically monitored and marked open at the appropriate time?

I know I often read stories about closed pubs that are due to reopen in a couple of months time, but then completely forget about them come the opening day, meaning they stay closed on here.

[ROBCamra]

With this in mind, would it be an idea to have a thread where contributors can post about temporarily closed pubs or pubs that are due to open/reopen so that these can be periodically monitored and marked open at the appropriate time?

I know I often read stories about closed pubs that are due to reopen in a couple of months time, but then completely forget about them come the opening day, meaning they stay closed on here.

We shouldn't need to if this all goes to plan.

Once we've got the initial backlog sorted one way or the other we can monitor Whatpub on a monthly basis
and do a comparison of changes over the month. (probably). ;)

[bcfczuluarmy]

Sounds interesting. One thing I was thinking about on the way home today on bus that if we visit somewhere and mark it shut for refurb or more then unless we revisit that area then we are unlikely to know/remember to check if it's reopened as the active members are somewhat less than local Camra members.

It would be nice if Whatpub attributed the updates from none members as they may not know for a while otherwise. Also anyone aware if you send a picture to Local Camra branch in an update that they can use it in publications without crediting source even including the text content from the email? Don't mind just nice to see my name in lights...

[Quinno]

We shouldn't need to if this all goes to plan.

Once we've got the initial backlog sorted one way or the other we can monitor Whatpub on a monthly basis
and do a comparison of changes over the month. (probably). ;)

See, this is why I love PuG...!!!

[gillhalfpint]

My name is not on the 8 Minehead pub pictures I sent up. Sites have the dates they amended them when they got my pictures. They were done a couple of days after I sent them which is not bad as they go to a central point who automatically e-mail acknowledgement, and then get transferred from there to the relevant CAMRA branch.

[Pubsignman]

We shouldn't need to if this all goes to plan.

Once we've got the initial backlog sorted one way or the other we can monitor Whatpub on a monthly basis
and do a comparison of changes over the month. (probably). ;)

Okay, that's pretty cool. I hadn't appreciated that you had a way of tracking updates/changes made on Whatpub.

[Gann]

Another WhatPub idiosyncrasy I've spotted over recent days which I am sure is branch specific and hopefully not that common is that pub descriptions are taken from the pubs own website and cut and pasted into WhatPub...
Now others may consider that acceptable but I don't and think it is just plain lazyness and probably means the local branch have probably not even visited..
That's certainly my suspicion with the two isolated rural pubs I did yesterday where the glowing testamonials from the pubs website replicated on WhatPub were not in line with reality..

[sheffield hatter]

Another WhatPub idiosyncrasy I've spotted over recent days which I am sure is branch specific and hopefully not that common is that pub descriptions are taken from the pubs own website and cut and pasted into WhatPub...
Now others may consider that acceptable but I don't and think it is just plain lazyness and probably means the local branch have probably not even visited..
That's certainly my suspicion with the two isolated rural pubs I did yesterday where the glowing testamonials from the pubs website replicated on WhatPub were not in line with reality..

Are you going to name the pubs? Or do we have to go through all your recent reviews until we find them? ;)

[Gann]

Not on yet
They will be the two I post tomorrow with new pickies

[Rex_Rattus]

I didn't know any CAMRA branches were simply (and lazily) just copying pub website info onto WhatPub. That's not what it's for. It certainly doesn't happen in my branch.

I certainly do use WhatPub data to report changes to Pubs Galore. But I don't just propose a change just because I happen to notice it in WhatPub, unless I know the branch concerned - and I do know which London branches I can rely on and which I can't. In London major WhatPub changes (openings, closings, name changes) are reported each month in London Drinker, and such changes have for many years been reported as Capital Pubcheck in London Drinker, and I have always reported these changes to PuG. So, generally we have London covered, although of course something is going to slip through the net every now and again.

[Aqualung]

I spotted one on the Dark Side today that was reported closed and Whatpub confirmed it. Should I mark it as closed or not?
It's oop North so the two sites are all I have on it.

[AlanH]

I spotted one on the Dark Side today that was reported closed and Whatpub confirmed it. Should I mark it as closed or not?
It's oop North so the two sites are all I have on it.

Tell us which pub it is then one of us oop North might know about it.

[Aqualung]

Tell us which pub it is then one of us oop North might know about it.

This (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/52740/) is the one.

[ROBCamra]

This (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/52740/) is the one.

It was sold by Daltons for £175,000.

It's now being turned into flats according to a review on Google.

I've now closed it.

[ROBCamra]

Just an update on where we're at.

All 900 of the pubs that Whatpub had listed as open and PG had listed as closed have been checked through.

In the last 6 months Whatpub was right about 75% of the time, they should have been open.

Probably due to the refurbed and reopened issue that I mentioned earlier in the thread.

As you go back in time though Whatpub is less reliable and I've probably only reopened about 10% of the pubs that we closed on PG over a year ago for example.

There were originally 1900 pubs that Whatpub has listed as closed and PG has listed as open.

These are still being worked through.

I'm not sure how many are left to do (maybe Dave can tell me) but I'm currently checking pubs that Whatpub closed in March 2014.

So I'm guessing there's a long way to go yet.

As I've said before, there will no doubt be errors made along the way (about 8 or 9 I've been told about so far and I'm sure there will be more),
but it won't be anywhere near as many as the potential 2800 we stared off with. :cheers:

[bcfczuluarmy]

Hi Rob

Further to your review and suggestion that Jonathan Wilde reads this thread is quite amusing considering I started the thread.

Reshutting a pub 38 minutes after its been reopened is ridiculous. I have emailed my local camra group the same informing them it's reopened so once they've reviewed they will mark it open again.

The Black Horse (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/259/)

[Mobyduck]

Hi Rob

Further to your review and suggestion that Jonathan Wilde reads this thread is quite amusing considering I started the thread.

The Black Horse (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/259/)
:D

[ROBCamra]

Hi Rob

Further to your review and suggestion that Jonathan Wilde reads this thread is quite amusing considering I started the thread.

Reshutting a pub 38 minutes after its been reopened is ridiculous. I have emailed my local camra group the same informing them it's reopened so once they've reviewed they will mark it open again.

The Black Horse (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/259/)

It was a mistake I agree. I also didn't realise you had a different pseudonym on here.

However, it was still dogs abuse, considering the amount of effort that is going into this initiative.

So thanks for that.

[bcfczuluarmy]

I appreciate the efforts don't get me wrong but when you cite the reopening with I'll be having a drink in there in a bit you kind of expect it to be taken that the pub has reopened and it not be reclosed again.

Anyway it's open lets not dwell on it. As you say errors occur and the original point of this thread was to highlight the fact that some CAMRA areas aren't that up to date.

[ROBCamra]

I appreciate the efforts don't get me wrong but when you cite the reopening with I'll be having a drink in there in a bit you kind of expect it to be taken that the pub has reopened and it not be reclosed again.

Anyway it's open lets not dwell on it. As you say errors occur and the original point of this thread was to highlight the fact that some CAMRA areas aren't that up to date.

No problems, forgotten. :cheers:

[ROBCamra]

All the original 900 pubs that Whatpub had as open that PuG had as closed have been checked through.

A further update was done on 11/11/2014 that flagged up a further 100 or so since the original report these have also been done.

Out of the 1900 pubs flagged up as closed on Whatpub, but open on PuG there are now just 96 left to check out. :cheers:

I expect to get those done in the next week or so.

After that we can hopefully keep things up to date with a monthly comparison.

Obviously a large percentage of the Whatpub pubs sold real ale.

There must be lots of pubs/bars out there especially in Scotland & Northern Ireland that have closed and have never sold real ale
so wouldn't be flagged up.

Anybody got any bright ideas as to how we could address those?:confused:

[bcfczuluarmy]

Obviously a large percentage of the Whatpub pubs sold real ale.

There must be lots of pubs/bars out there especially in Scotland & Northern Ireland that have closed and have never sold real ale
so wouldn't be flagged up.

Anybody got any bright ideas as to how we could address those?:confused:

Deselect real ale available on closed pubs on whatpub if you can't get a Pubzilla spread sheet and filter accordingly using same criteria?

Search all county by county by selecting/deselecting closed pubs/pubs only and real ale available this will give you pages of pubs to cross reference with if already reviewed on here as shut if a handy spread sheet isn't possible could be another way to break the above down into manageable and matching amounts of work.

This will also bring a lot of pubs not listed here as shut years ago probably from some branches. I know Bristol have loads added that shut years ago that I'd been in but no point adding here as long gone. It may however highlight a few pubs that are closed but not lost that could be added here especially if discovered open on researching.

Think I've understood what you're trying to do.

[ROBCamra]

We'll already have the pubs that are on Whatpub but have no real ale.

It's ones that the local branch haven't bothered adding to Whatpub because they don't sell real ale
that we're struggling with.

I think we've gone as far as we can with Whatpub, but I'll have a look at Pubzilla.

I may just trawl through commercial estate agents in a town e.g. Ayr and see what has been or is up for sale and then follow that up
to see what happened to the pub next. :cheers:

[bcfczuluarmy]

Ah I get you now you wanted to find out our not added on WP ones for updates of if open or closed. As you say if you've done all WP no real ale available check it will be mostly down to laborious searching , although a lot of places have current 2014 street view which is a more pleasant way to search. Especially as most searches give you the obligatory 192.com mybusiness.com generic rubbish results for a name with no actual useful info.

[Aqualung]

I think we've gone as far as we can with Whatpub, but I'll have a look at Pubzilla.



Isn't Pubzilla what branches use to update Whatpub?

[bcfczuluarmy]

Isn't Pubzilla what branches use to update Whatpub?

Yes hence me thinking a download had been obtained to give the response time seen in getting updates added here by ROBCAMRA as i guess as CAMRA member you have nationwide access/download rights. Maybe it was only a download of certain criteria as I can select certain fields in work based database downloads so maybe a more thorough tick list could be needed.

[Strongers]

It's ones that the local branch haven't bothered adding to Whatpub because they don't sell real ale
that we're struggling with.

Also pubs that have been closed for years never made it into the Whatpub database but still languish on here. The darkside can be useful to quickly browse areas using the 'show comment summaries' option which shows the first few words of the last 5 reviews. takes some checking but can yield results.

[Quinno]

Yes hence me thinking a download had been obtained to give the response time seen in getting updates added here by ROBCAMRA as i guess as CAMRA member you have nationwide access/download rights..

No you don't. It is restricted by branch. And it is not nation-wide, it is one of a number of home-grown databases used.

But most important thing here is that the info is not publicly available. I strongly suspect that any attempts to obtain it would be in breach of copyright/intellectual property. So it's best left well-alone.

[Pubsignman]

I suspect there are a lot of closed pubs in the 'Unknown' column on this page:

http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/stats/real-ale-counties.php

Bit of a slog to work through them all though.

[ROBCamra]

I suspect there are a lot of closed pubs in the 'Unknown' column on this page:

http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/stats/real-ale-counties.php

Bit of a slog to work through them all though.

It was looking into pubs that Didn't sell real ale on this report that started me off on this road. :evilgrin:

[Mobyduck]

I suspect there are a lot of closed pubs in the 'Unknown' column on this page:

http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/stats/real-ale-counties.php

Bit of a slog to work through them all though.

Just been to one of the Hampshire ones today, on the above list for that very purpose, although there is a name change involved, will reveal all in the correct places (hopefully) shortly.

[Mobyduck]

Just been to one of the Hampshire ones today, on the above list for that very purpose, although there is a name change involved, will reveal all in the correct places (hopefully) shortly.

The pub in question was The Castle Inn (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/59595/), name now changed to Sidewalks - Bar and Diner, a kind of low budget take on an American Diner, sadly if not unsurprisingly there is no real ale, the above info has been added to the correct threads. I was hoping to make it a double header as another on the unknown list, Harry's Wine Bar (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/76897/)is literally a couple of doors away,unfortunately not open at 5:30 this evening and in darkness, with the added obstruction of dark tinted windows, could just about make out the bar to the rear of the room with taps for presumably lager but couldn't see any handpumps, I strongly suspect there is no real ale here but can't be totally sure so it will have to remain on the list for the time being.

[bcfczuluarmy]

I suspect there are a lot of closed pubs in the 'Unknown' column on this page:

http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/stats/real-ale-counties.php

Bit of a slog to work through them all though.

Cheers for that link not sure I'd seen that previously with the culprit pubs listed. Finished Bristol's outstanding one as went in there on Friday after a return visit to the strawberry thief. Got told to fuck off on entry as it's in St Paul's but it is Robcamra's favourite pub to shut in Bristol based on lost pub project.

[Quinno]

Got told to fuck off on entry as it's in St Paul's .

Ha ha, good to see that St Paul's hasn't changed. Even the white flight hipsters from London would struggle to get a foothold there.

[Aqualung]

Ha ha, good to see that St Paul's hasn't changed. Even the white flight hipsters from London would struggle to get a foothold there.

Are you referring to me??????

[Strongers]

Why is the Whatpub (http://whatpub.com/pubs/SOW/698/club-britannia-carlisle) link for Club Brittania (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/82484/) in Carlisle not present on the pub/club home page? I thought it was an automatic thing.

[oldboots]

Why is the Whatpub (http://whatpub.com/pubs/SOW/698/club-britannia-carlisle) link for Club Brittania (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/82484/) in Carlisle not present on the pub/club home page? I thought it was an automatic thing.

Could it be the spelling mistake in Club BRITTANIA which should be BRITANNIA? (Now corrected)

[Aqualung]

I went to Billericay yesterday and found some updates and this led me to look through the "unknown" list in the Real Ale by County feature. I have found three Harvesters in Essex that are on What Pub as No Real Ale but. If a Harvester is on What Pub saying No Real Ale it must be a certainty that they don't sell it mustn't it? It is a certainty that they are family friendly and sell hot food! All of these were part of the unknown group.
The Harvester web site has a handy map showing all of their outlets.

[Strongers]

I went to Billericay yesterday and found some updates and this led me to look through the "unknown" list in the Real Ale by County feature. I have found three Harvesters in Essex that are on What Pub as No Real Ale but. If a Harvester is on What Pub saying No Real Ale it must be a certainty that they don't sell it mustn't it? It is a certainty that they are family friendly and sell hot food! All of these were part of the unknown group.
The Harvester web site has a handy map showing all of their outlets.

I investigated a couple of Harvesters yesterday to see if they had real ale. For the first pub I found a picture of the bar on Facebook and there were no hand pumps. For the second one I found a comment on Tripadvisor from last month where the reviewer had moaned about the lack of anything but keg.

[Aqualung]

I investigated a couple of Harvesters yesterday to see if they had real ale. For the first pub I found a picture of the bar on Facebook and there were no hand pumps. For the second one I found a comment on Tripadvisor from last month where the reviewer had moaned about the lack of anything but keg.

I believe their policy is not to sell real ale. I've only been in one in the last five years and although it had a "pub" area there was no real ale.
For some reason my nearest Harvester has been marked as selling real ale despite it saying the reverse on What Pub.

[Mobyduck]

I investigated a couple of Harvesters yesterday.
I think you need help. :D

[Strongers]

I think you need help. :D

:o

I must admit that I had to talk myself out of trouble with a worried wife yesterday when she caught me on the Poison Ivy (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/75496/) facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/ivybarkemptown). I was looking for a picture of the bar.... honest!