What Pub Rip Off

[Al 10000]

After looking at some pubs in SE1 for a London crawl i had a look at this pub The Grand Union (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/72778/)

Rex reviewed the pub in late 2013, What Pub claims to have reviewed the pub on 5/2/14,but the short review they do of the pub contains parts of

Rex's longer review to the word.

I wonder if they are ripping off any more Pubs Galore reviews.

[oldboots]

After looking at some pubs in SE1 for a London crawl i had a look at this pub The Grand Union (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/72778/)

Rex reviewed the pub in late 2013, What Pub claims to have reviewed the pub on 5/2/14,but the short review they do of the pub contains parts of

Rex's longer review to the word.

I wonder if they are ripping off any more Pubs Galore reviews.



I wonder if Rex is a CAMRA member who has donated reviews and pictures to WhatPub as well as PuG? I know I have provided the same pictures and almost the same reviews to both sites.

[Strongers]

A bit cheeky, unless Rex wrote the what pub himself?

[Strongers]

A bit cheeky, unless Rex wrote the what pub himself?


I wonder if Rex is a CAMRA member who has donated reviews and pictures to WhatPub as well as PuG? I know I have provided the same pictures and almost the same reviews to both sites.

Great minds and all that!

[Aqualung]

I wonder if Rex is a CAMRA member who has donated reviews and pictures to WhatPub as well as PuG? I know I have provided the same pictures and almost the same reviews to both sites.

I know that Rex's pic of the Rochester Castle Spoons in Stoke Newington is the same as the one on Whatpub. I would be very surprised if Whatpub did blatantly steal his review. I use both sites as Whatpub usually has the opening hours and have gladly assisted Whatpub when I can. I'm certain I saw something in the forum about Rex going to a CAMRA meeting, something I'm sure he wouldn't put himself through unless he was a CAMRA member!

[Maldenman]

I know Rex very well, he is a CAMRA member and I know he does help to update Whatpub too.

[Rex_Rattus]

I know Rex very well, he is a CAMRA member and I know he does help to update Whatpub too.
Thanks MM. You're right, they didn't rip me off - I have provided loads of stuff to WhatPub, including The Grand Union that Alan mentioned.

[bcfczuluarmy]

Thank the lord for Ctrl + C and Ctrl + V the only thing that comes close to that in life is beer.

[Al 10000]

Thanks MM. You're right, they didn't rip me off - I have provided loads of stuff to WhatPub, including The Grand Union that Alan mentioned.


Thanks for sorting that one out Rex,

I thought you were a South West London Camra member,this is the reason i did'nt think about you reviewing South East Londons area pubs,but i dont know how Camra runs things anway.

[Rex_Rattus]

Thanks for sorting that one out Rex,

I thought you were a South West London Camra member,this is the reason i did'nt think about you reviewing South East Londons area pubs,but i dont know how Camra runs things anway.
You're right Alan, my branch is SW London, but you can provide input to any branch on their pubs and the branch then uploads it to WhatPub as long as they agree with what you are saying. As you know I go to pubs all over London.

[gillhalfpint]

I did some things for Whatpub while in Cornwall. As you say it doesn't matter what branch you are from, you can update wrong info and send pub photos for approval the same as you do on here. I use both sites and feel they complement each other very well for their own reasons for me.

[AlanH]

I did some things for Whatpub while in Cornwall. As you say it doesn't matter what branch you are from, you can update wrong info and send pub photos for approval the same as you do on here. I use both sites and feel they complement each other very well for their own reasons for me.

I have many identical photos and a few reviews on What Pub in the Vale of Clwyd area. No point in taking a separate picture for each guide.

The map points are identical too.

Some Camra branches (even strong ones) don't bother with their map points. Of the ones I have submitted to different branches, at least 50% of them have been totally ignored!

[Rex_Rattus]

The map points are identical too.

Some Camra branches (even strong ones) don't bother with their map points. Of the ones I have submitted to different branches, at least 50% of them have been totally ignored!

I had a correspondence with CAMRA's Andy Shaw (WhatPub developer among other things!) about map points, and his advice is that it is worth reporting map point corrections to the relevant branches. The trouble is there doesn't seem to be an easy way to do it - you can't drag and drop the marker the way you can on here. The only way I've found to report the correct map point is to use the "what's here" facility on the maps to determine the correct grid reference; make a note of said reference; then send feedback via WhatPub to the branch. Frankly I'm not convinced that it's worth the effort (for me or the branch) unless the map point is significantly wrong.

[bcfczuluarmy]

After being a very doubting Thomas on map points I think Bristol Camra are very up on all things although I've not fully checked the point, all I've looked at seem spot on pubs I've viewed. I do keep them up to date on things that they haven't spotted yet despite originally deciding I would let them fend for themselves they have reported back that they have a backlog so have been behind on adding my updates although these have been demolition updates so not the news anybody wants to hear. Overall they seem a friendly bunch to a non member giving updates.

As previously said good mix of two worlds, although prefer here.

[hondo]

Non camra member on the beer in Brighton I notice a lot of what pubs "about the pub" are just copied from the pubs own website eg http://whatpub.com/pubs/BRI/336/iron-duke-hove

http://www.irondukebrighton.co.uk/

Is this normal practice

[Rex_Rattus]

Non camra member on the beer in Brighton I notice a lot of what pubs "about the pub" are just copied from the pubs own website eg http://whatpub.com/pubs/BRI/336/iron-duke-hove

http://www.irondukebrighton.co.uk/

Is this normal practice
I don't think so - it's certainly not the norm in my patch, which is London. You can occasionally get a bit of useful information from a pub's website, but in my experience their descriptions are full of verbiage - "intimate and friendly atmosphere", "serve lovingly crafted beers", etc, etc. Well, they would say that wouldn't they? Is it true - what are the beers that are lovingly crafted? Who knows? It's lazy in the extreme to just copy stuff from pub's websites. The facility exists to include links on WhatPub to pubs' websites, as it is on here, and if you go to a pub website you know to take it with a pinch of salt as they are obviously not going to be objective are they? On the other hand, You are entitled to expect a WhatPub description to tell it like it is.

[hondo]

Thanks Rex as you say pub website links are no problem and we can take them with a pinch of salt but "about a pub" to me should be camra opinion/facts. If I was a camra member I would be disappointed that the pubs own views are being represented as camra views( not always as obvious as my example above that states "we").

[hondo]

Just another "we"to confirm
http://whatpub.com/pubs/BRI/340/brunswick-hove

[Quinno]

I've seen it a few times myself - lazy buggers.

[hondo]

I've seen it a few times myself - lazy buggers.


Better to have no comment and just the link

[Blackthorn]

They've definitely ripped off one of my reviews, I haven't contributed anything to What Pub? They chopped out a bit as I tend to ramble on a bit, but the sentences that remain are identical, even down to the punctuation marks.

The Trotter Inn (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/57847/)

[hondo]

They've definitely ripped off one of my reviews, I haven't contributed anything to What Pub? They chopped out a bit as I tend to ramble on a bit, but the sentences that remain are identical, even down to the punctuation marks.

The Trotter Inn (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/57847/)

1245

[Aqualung]

They've definitely ripped off one of my reviews, I haven't contributed anything to What Pub? They chopped out a bit as I tend to ramble on a bit, but the sentences that remain are identical, even down to the punctuation marks.

The Trotter Inn (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/57847/)

The fact that the words "main" and "the" are erroneously transposed in both is a complete give away. The orange bar shows that the page isn't even complete so there was little point in transposing the review word for word.

[Rex_Rattus]

Personally, I would regard it as a bit of a compliment if WhatPub used bits of one of my reviews. But of course they shouldn't assume that everyone feels that way. I suppose you have IPR on your review, so what they've done is a bit cheeky.

[oldboots]

The fact that the words "main" and "the" are erroneously transposed in both is a complete give away. The orange bar shows that the page isn't even complete so there was little point in transposing the review word for word.

Very obvious and very naughty and they should be slapped for it, I have heard the reverse at some CAMRA meetings, ie Pubs Galore ripping off What?ub - which I've never actually seen a case of, but all's fair on the internet seems to be the view from Somerset.

By the way the "orange bar" is only visible to logged in CAMRA members and in this case means the opening hours are missing from the entry.

[Aqualung]

By the way the "orange bar" is only visible to logged in CAMRA members and in this case means the opening hours are missing from the entry.

I'm always logged in so have never noticed that! The daft thing is that a long verbose description is fairly pointless on What Pub. The beers listed may not be reliable as they are just the ones found on a random visit. The plagiarism is all the more pointless for that!
I've taken snippets from the Spoons web site, old beer guides and What Pub but never done a cut and paste job like that.

[trainman]

The daft thing is that a long verbose description is fairly pointless on What Pub. The beers listed may not be reliable as they are just the ones found on a random visit. The plagiarism is all the more pointless for that!.
Errm.., so the inference is that a description of the pub and its beers is pointless? we may as well pack up and go home!

[Aqualung]

Errm.., so the inference is that a description of the pub and its beers is pointless? we may as well pack up and go home!
That's not what I was saying at all! I was suggesting that long verbose descriptions don't really suit What Pub. The beer list on What Pub is a different format to what you may typically list on this site in that it consists of regular beers and guest beers. In this case Blackthorn listed two beers which the CAMRA branch have assumed to be regular beers. This may or may not be the case, one or both might be a guest beer. The only way to be sure would be to ask the landlord which is something not required for reviews on this site.

[Al 10000]

Camra may not like this site, or are slightly jealous of the reviews it gets,

I now know they read reviews done on this site to add information to their supposed superior site,i have visited this pub The Bear and Lace (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/30851/) under both guises,and put in my review that there are now four handpumps on the bar,the what pub review at the time said,"Chambers reopened as Bear and Lace still no real ales"

I have just had a look at the what pub site for this pub and there is still no proper review of it,but they now state four changing guest beers,if local camra buffs had gone in they would have surely left a proper review for their site,i dont think they went in but read my recent review.

[sheffield hatter]

Camra may not like this site, or are slightly jealous of the reviews it gets,

I now know they read reviews done on this site to add information to their supposed superior site,i have visited this pub The Bear and Lace (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/30851/) under both guises,and put in my review that there are now four handpumps on the bar,the what pub review at the time said,"Chambers reopened as Bear and Lace still no real ales"

I have just had a look at the what pub site for this pub and there is still no proper review of it,but they now state four changing guest beers,if local camra buffs had gone in they would have surely left a proper review for their site,i dont think they went in but read my recent review.

I don't think the guys in Sheffield Camra have even made the effort to borrow from our site. For example, The Railway (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/43322/) in Wadsley Bridge has had real ale for about three years now, but What?ub (http://whatpub.com/pubs/SHF/654/railway-hotel-sheffield) has not only still got it listed as no real ale, but also closed. I was in there on 30th August and it was definitely open, and definitely serving real ale.

[Rex_Rattus]

Camra may not like this site, or are slightly jealous of the reviews it gets,

I now know they read reviews done on this site to add information to their supposed superior site,i have visited this pub The Bear and Lace (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/30851/) under both guises,and put in my review that there are now four handpumps on the bar,the what pub review at the time said,"Chambers reopened as Bear and Lace still no real ales"

I have just had a look at the what pub site for this pub and there is still no proper review of it,but they now state four changing guest beers,if local camra buffs had gone in they would have surely left a proper review for their site,i dont think they went in but read my recent review.

Even if they did amend the WhatPub info based on what you said about real ales, I don't think I would regard it as a rip-off. After all, we use WhatPub info to update Pubs Galore all the time (closures, etc). But using prose without permission of the author would be different of course.

[Aqualung]

Even if they did amend the WhatPub info based on what you said about real ales, I don't think I would regard it as a rip-off. After all, we use WhatPub info to update Pubs Galore all the time (closures, etc). But using prose without permission of the author would be different of course.

I agree entirely, if you want an example of a place where this site hasn't covered itself in glory take a look at Corby in Northants.
With regard to the original subject of the Nottingham pub, CAMRA members have the option to send updates to the local branch, they don't have to include a review. The dates may just be a coincidence.

Personally I find the slagging off of the opposing site from either side really pathetic .

If there is a threat to this site it is more from Trip Advisor than What Pub. Trip Advisor are wrong to have taken on pubs rather than sticking to just hotels and restaurants.
I don't think it helps this site at all having the continuing addition of chain restaurants, night clubs and residential hotel bars where the person adding it has made no effort at all to check whether it is a valid addition. I can't agree with adding most chain restaurants as even if you can go in there for just a drink nobody would ever do so.

[sheffield hatter]

Personally I find the slagging off of the opposing site from either side really pathetic .

Both sites have their weaknesses, and I don't see it as "pathetic" to point them out. One of our strengths on Pubs Galore is the enthusiasm of our photographers and reviewers. One of our weaknesses is that we are thinly and randomly spread. One of our strengths is that contributions are idiosyncratic and personal, and that unacceptable contributions are policed (reasonably) effectively.

Camra's What?ub has a large network of smaller groups, some of whom no doubt include enthusiastic photographers and reviewers. However, as a national organisation with a rather larger source of funding (I would imagine) than Pubs Galore, it is perhaps surprising that there appears to have been no effort to make the site's national coverage more consistent.

Yes, we have undoubtedly included some info from What?ub, and this is unacknowledged on the site. But then, What?ub has used our reviews, sometime acknowledged, sometimes quoted unacknowledged and verbatim even when it jars with Camra's house style. And they seem to "borrow" photos from wherever they like.

The major effort in terms of providing a service to users of pub websites is Dave's decision to add a What?ub link from every pub on our site to an identifiable equivalent on theirs. I think this is a step that has undoubtedly benefited the consumer and is to the benefit of both sites in terms of their usability.

I find What?ub a useful tool when I am planning trips, but whereas on Pubs Galore I can be certain that the information presented is true at the date stated and as far as the reliability of the contributor is concerned, Camra's "updated on" and "last surveyed on" dates seem less trustworthy - I have certainly come across many cases where the "last survey" date was after a PuG review by a trusted reviewer that was at odds with Camra's "latest info".

Sorry if my earlier post seemed like "slagging off". For what it's worth, I discussed with a member of the local Camra committee whether they would be interested in using some of my photos, and was advised to send an email offering my help. I clicked on a link in an email sent to Camra members in Sheffield (...we are asking for survey information and photographs of pub [sic] from those that can, however we are also looking for a volunteer to enter all the updates into the database. If you are interested in volunteering for any of these tasks please email chairman@sheffieldcamra.org.uk ...) and sent this email on 22nd January this year:

I would be willing to help out with the What Pub project. I have a large number of photos of Sheffield pubs, as I have been contributing to Pubs Galore for the last four years. I am also reasonably computer literate, and could easily find the time for some work on the database.

Please let me know what help you need and how I can contribute.


I am still awaiting a reply.

[AlanH]

I don't think the guys in Sheffield Camra have even made the effort to borrow from our site. For example, The Railway (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/43322/) in Wadsley Bridge has had real ale for about three years now, but What?ub (http://whatpub.com/pubs/SHF/654/railway-hotel-sheffield) has not only still got it listed as no real ale, but also closed. I was in there on 30th August and it was definitely open, and definitely serving real ale.

The Sheffield branch admitted on a recent forum that they are not updating What?ub due to lack of volunteers. If they cannot respond to offers of help, they must be in a very poor state. Many stronger branches have asked how they can help the weaker branches but a solution has not been found. This is still the weakness of WP. Some branches are quite territorial and have stated that they don't want "outsiders" interfering with their data.
After several requests I made to correct a badly misplaced map point, one branch finally admitted that they were incapable of doing it! A simple half minute job on PuG (also simple drag & drop on WP if using "Pubzilla").

[Aqualung]

Both sites have their weaknesses, and I don't see it as "pathetic" to point them out. One of our strengths on Pubs Galore is the enthusiasm of our photographers and reviewers. One of our weaknesses is that we are thinly and randomly spread. One of our strengths is that contributions are idiosyncratic and personal, and that unacceptable contributions are policed (reasonably) effectively.

This statement and a very long reasoned post sums up why the two sites are both very good and should co-exist without all the pointless sniping.
Neither sites are perfect but they are both better than Trip Advisor who have gone past their original remit or BITE which is a complete joke. What Pub reviews should be factual and relatively impartial while this site's reviews are delightfully biased and it's always good to see the different takes on a pub depending on the reviewer. This was very apparent with my recent visit to Newark.

[Mobyduck]

Surely What Pub don't review, its just a pub description.

[rpadam]

Just out of curiosity, I reported this one to the local (Telford & East Shropshire) branch in April 2015 via the What?ub app to correct the details: http://whatpub.com/pubs/TEL/214/barley-mow-telford allegedly "Last surveyed on 26/10/2013".

I pointed out that it not only hadn't been converted into flats but was also very much still open, as described here: Barley Mow (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/32671/)

I know they got the report because I received the automated acknowledgement, but you can of course guess what they have (so far) done about it...

[Aqualung]

Surely What Pub don't review, its just a pub description.

Agreed, that's better than the way I worded it above.

[Aqualung]

Just out of curiosity, I reported this one to the local (Telford & East Shropshire) branch in April 2015 via the What?ub app to correct the details: http://whatpub.com/pubs/TEL/214/barley-mow-telford allegedly "Last surveyed on 26/10/2013".

I pointed out that it not only hadn't been converted into flats but was also very much still open, as described here: Barley Mow (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/32671/)

I know they got the report because I received the automated acknowledgement, but you can of course guess what they have (so far) done about it...

I've had similar experiences as well but not as extreme as that one. I don't think the automated response counts for anything. Sadly some CAMRA branches are very much below par.

[Wittenden]

I've had similar experiences as well but not as extreme as that one. I don't think the automated response counts for anything. Sadly some CAMRA branches are very much below par.
Aren't most CAMRA branches two old tosspots who've forgotten their buss passes, and so can't "survey" their outlying pubs! (Beats a hasty retreat...)

[Oggwyn Trench]

Telford & East Shropshire CAMRA are useless :moremad: , i have submitted about 40 alterations and only 1 has been changed , there are several pubs that have been demolished/closed , some over 10 years ago , lots that have never had public bars , there are funeral parlours and bail hostels listed as open pubs :confused:

TES CAMRA is run by Bridgnorth CAMRA who dont give a toss about Telford and surrounds .

[Al 10000]

Personally I find the slagging off of the opposing site from either side really pathetic .



You use the nasty words pathetic and sniping after my post about the Bear and Lace in Nottingham,i did not make any pathetic comments or any sniping comments about what pub,i was just stating what i thought was facts.
I would have posted what i thought,but this was the only thread that seemed to be right at the time.

If these words in your posts relate to my post,then please take them back,if not i am sorry for posting this.

[Aqualung]

You use the nasty words pathetic and sniping after my post about the Bear and Lace in Nottingham,i did not make any pathetic comments or any sniping comments about what pub,i was just stating what i thought was facts.
I would have posted what i thought,but this was the only thread that seemed to be right at the time.

If these words in your posts relate to my post,then please take them back,if not i am sorry for posting this.

Why do you always take things to be a personal attack on you? The sentence you have quoted does say "from either side" so is quite clearly made in general terms.
I fail to see how the words pathetic or sniping are nasty.
I did cover the case of the Bear and Lace and attempted to explain how there is no certainty that it is a "rip off", unlike a previous case where a review had been copied word for word including a spelling mistake.

[Mobyduck]

Although not a large branch, my CAMRA branch, North Hampshire CAMRA, seem pretty sharp on pub updates, any I have submitted are usually dealt with inside 24 -48hours.

[ROBCamra]

After having told Halifax CAMRA on 2, possibly 3 occasions that Bull On The Bridge (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/83560/) is open.

Eventually they got around to reopening it on 18/04/2016.

They then nicked most of my review from 19/02/2016 and posted it as the description.

They also claimed it had been surveyed by the branch on, yep, 19/02/2016. :D

[AlanH]

After having told Halifax CAMRA on 2, possibly 3 occasions that Bull On The Bridge (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/83560/) is open.

Eventually they got around to reopening it on 18/04/2016.

They then nicked most of my review from 19/02/2016 and posted it as the description.

They also claimed it had been surveyed by the branch on, yep, 19/02/2016. :D

Sounds fair enough. You have contacted them with an update and they have (eventually) updated it. You have been credited with the survey by them using your date/survey (as you know, names are not used on WP). It does not say the "branch" surveyed it.

There is a massive interchange of information between PuG and WP. How many times do we see (on PuG), "pub opened/closed reported by local Camra branch".

Occasionally, of course, this can also lead to incorrect information being passed from one site to another.

[ROBCamra]

Sounds fair enough. How many times do we see (on PuG), "pub opened/closed reported by local Camra branch".


I know, no complaints from me, that's why there's a "Big Grin" :D

I open and close most of them on here and a lot of the initial info comes from Whatpub, even if it takes a lot of checking for correctness.

[AlanH]

Telford & East Shropshire CAMRA are useless :moremad: , i have submitted about 40 alterations and only 1 has been changed , there are several pubs that have been demolished/closed , some over 10 years ago , lots that have never had public bars , there are funeral parlours and bail hostels listed as open pubs :confused:

TES CAMRA is run by Bridgnorth CAMRA who dont give a toss about Telford and surrounds .

Telford & East Shropshire might be improving.
I re-submitted the "funeral parlour" and a long demolished pub still marked as open, expecting a long wait and having to moan to their Regional Organiser, but they were updated and marked as closed within 24 hours!
Still a shame they had not done it themselves much sooner. If you live in Bridgnorth, a trip to Telford mustn't sound too exciting!

[ROBCamra]

Looks like the Northern Ireland branch of CAMRA have simply nicked all of our "pubs" in the province and added them to WhatPub.

I've been checking through some rogue entries and WhatPub has every one, but with no information
apart from the address etc.

This includes a caravan park and several guesthouses.

I don't see how they could have replicated ALL the mistakes on here without using PuG.