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Strongers
19-06-2014, 00:08
Do Old Rosie and Thatcher's Heritage count as real cider or does it have to come from a plastic container marked as experiment 'X' on the back bar?

ETA
19-06-2014, 08:49
If we apply CAMRA's logic, real cider would be cider which is conditioned or has undergone secondary ferrmentation in the cask (or, indeed, plastic container) or bottle and is unpasteurised, unfiltered and not served using added CO2 or N2 as a propulsion means (no, please don't get into the cask breather debate here!).

On the other hand, if you enjoy Thatchers and Old Rosie (I actually quite like both in really hot weather), does it matter?

Aqualung
19-06-2014, 09:38
Do Old Rosie and Thatcher's Heritage count as real cider or does it have to come from a plastic container marked as experiment 'X' on the back bar?

This is nearly as tricky a question as "What is Craft Beer?".

The rules are different to beer but are fairly simple :-

It should be made entirely from apples and / or pears, ie no manufactured juice concentrate.
It should not have artificial carbonation, ie no keg.
It should not have artificial colourings or flavourings.
It should not have undwergone micro-filtration (whatever that is).

The problems arise if a producer of whatever size uses some concentrate how would you know and be able to prove it?
The other issue is fruit flavoured ciders. The definitions are presumably there to outlaw the Global abomination's activities where they take their rubbish and just add squash to it.
The Spoon's annual cider festival always has one or two flavoured ciders that presumably fall foul of these rules, but they seem fine to me.

As far as the two mentioned go, I would say Old Rosie yes and Thatcher's Heritage don't know as I don't recall seeing it, but if it's served from a plastic barrel or polypin then it's most likely OK.

Farway
19-06-2014, 13:17
This is nearly as tricky a question as "What is Craft Beer?".

The rules are different to beer but are fairly simple :-

It should be made from entirely from apples and / or pears, ie no manufactured juice concentrate.
It should not have artificial carbonation, ie no keg.
It should not have artificial colourings or flavourings.
It should not have undwergone micro-filtration (whatever that is).

The problems arise if a producer of whatever size uses some concentrate how would you know and be able to prove it?
The other issue is fruit flavoured ciders. The definitions are presumably there to outlaw the Global abomination's activities where they take their rubbish and just add squash to it.
The Spoon's annual cider festival always has one or two flavoured ciders that presumably fall foul of these rules, but they seem fine to me.

As far as the two mentioned go, I would say Old Rosie yes and Thatcher's Heritage don't know as I don't recall seeing it, but if it's served from a plastic barrel or polypin then it's most likely OK.

Agree with the above, but pedant in me, there is no such thing as pear cider, made from pears it is called perry :evilgrin:

PS I did try some of the flavoured ciders last year in Weatherspoons, and found them very nice, looking forward to this years festival

NickDavies
19-06-2014, 13:23
Do Old Rosie and Thatcher's Heritage count as real cider or does it have to come from a plastic container marked as experiment 'X' on the back bar?

If it has twigs and bits of beak in it it's real.

ETA
19-06-2014, 14:30
Agree with the above, but pedant in me, there is no such thing as pear cider, made from pears it is called perry :evilgrin:



(Here we go...) I agree that if it's just pears, it's perry, and if it's just apples, it's cider. What we used to call 'pear cider' (before Babycham came and destroyed the nation's palates) was a mixture of pear and apple juice fermented the same way as cider/perry.

btw, in response to Aqualung's note about artificial flavourings, does that include either the lead (as in Pb) they used to put in Somerset cider, or the dead cat/rat/mammal of choise that would often go in 'real' pub cider with or without the brewer's knowledge? Or are these 'permitted' additives?

Aqualung
19-06-2014, 14:35
Agree with the above, but pedant in me, there is no such thing as pear cider, made from pears it is called perry :evilgrin:

PS I did try some of the flavoured ciders last year in Weatherspoons, and found them very nice, looking forward to this years festival

So am I! There's beetroot, chilli and ginger, rhubarb, raspberry and whisky barrel aged to look forward to. the list is on the Spoons site front page or in their propaganda booklet. There is a Thatcher's Cheddar Valley that I think they had last year. I don't recall seeing "Heritage".

Gann
24-06-2014, 12:08
According to one of my wife's extended relatives, who is a farmer is Somerset (pronounced Zumerzet apparently), the only real cider is one usually referred to as Scrumpy and is strong enough to also power the tractor home from whichever neighbours barn the brew kit is located in...

rpadam
25-06-2014, 00:43
According to one of my wife's extended relatives, who is a farmer is Somerset (pronounced Zumerzet apparently), the only real cider is one usually referred to as Scrumpy and is strong enough to also power the tractor home from whichever neighbours barn the brew kit is located in...
in Zumerset, that's cider as in 'ziiderr'...

Brewguru
25-06-2014, 10:01
Do Old Rosie and Thatcher's Heritage count as real cider or does it have to come from a plastic container marked as experiment 'X' on the back bar?

I don't know much about this but a bit more than most from what I can see.

These are both ciders as such they are fermented from juiced apples but here in Somerset there are "cider snobs" who take the Reinheitsgebot equivalent for cider and make it look positively broad minded. Heritage is actually not made in the traditional way, Thatchers use a concentrate. I don't know of Old Rosie.

The genuine cider makers use apples that have been grown for cider. If you ever ate one you'd spit it out, a very dry floury texture, not much sweetness and quite sour in general. These have names like Kingston Black, Dabinett etc. Perry is the equivalent, made from Perry pears which I suspect would also be fairly inedible.
Pear cider thus is treated with scorn around here, but is simply as others have said, cider with pear juice added.

Of course real cider, farmhouse cider, scrumpy or whatever you want to call it is never filtered, hence is hazy which is at least what Thatchers do with Heritage, Cheddar Valley and Traditional. Heritage I am told, is an unfiltered non carbonated version of Thatchers Gold Kegged cider.

Bucking Fastard
25-06-2014, 16:37
I know very little about cider,but does the sight of a cider being dispensed by a handpump in a pub mean that ,more than likely,this is a real cider ? I have been ticking the real cider symbol on the pub page under pub details if I see a handpump,but have I got this wrong?

Strongers
25-06-2014, 16:48
I know very little about cider,but does the sight of a cider being dispensed by a handpump in a pub mean that ,more than likely,this is a real cider ? I have been ticking the real cider symbol on the pub page under pub details if I see a handpump,but have I got this wrong?

This was why I asked the question as I have been doing the same.

Aqualung
25-06-2014, 23:33
This was why I asked the question as I have been doing the same.

The chances are that it will be, although it sounds from what BrewGuru says that Thatcher's Heritage has dodgy credentials.
I don't recall ever seeing this one, but I probably don't go to the pubs that might stock it. I would imagine that Thatcher's Gold has the full keg treatment of mechanised filtration, pasteurisation and pressurisation. I would be surprised if Old Rosie was not the genuine thing.

There's been a tradition of making cider from cooking and dessert apples in the South East (mainly Kent) and East Anglia for decades (probably hundreds of years). These are included as Real Ciders as are filtered ones providing it's not undergone micro-filtration (I don't know what that is). Gwynt Y Ddraig is one of my favourite cider makers that filters their ciders.

As far as the strength goes the "Park Bench" tax has been applied to ciders so they tend to have a ceiling of 7.5% ABV.
The only cider I definitely remember being more than that was Biddendon in Kent who I gather no longer do draught cider.

The CAMRA definition of real cider seems to exclude the weird and wonderful flavoured ones for the next Spoons Cider fest, but I won't let that put me off!!

Wittenden
26-06-2014, 09:05
The chances are that it will be, although it sounds from what BrewGuru says that Thatcher's Heritage has dodgy credentials.
I don't recall ever seeing this one, but I probably don't go to the pubs that might stock it. I would imagine that Thatcher's Gold has the full keg treatment of mechanised filtration, pasteurisation and pressurisation. I would be surprised if Old Rosie was not the genuine thing.

There's been a tradition of making cider from cooking and dessert apples in the South East (mainly Kent) and East Anglia for decades (probably hundreds of years). These are included as Real Ciders as are filtered ones providing it's not undergone micro-filtration (I don't know what that is). Gwynt Y Ddraig is one of my favourite cider makers that filters their ciders.

As far as the strength goes the "Park Bench" tax has been applied to ciders so they tend to have a ceiling of 7.5% ABV.
The only cider I definitely remember being more than that was Biddendon in Kent who I gather no longer do draught cider.

The CAMRA definition of real cider seems to exclude the weird and wonderful flavoured ones for the next Spoons Cider fest, but I won't let that put me off!!

No longer a cider drinker-don't get me started on proper Kent Cider! As far as I know Biddenden Bushell's is draught-I saw it on a hand pump t'other day:not sure of its "real " credentials. Probably is, as they are a genuine firm.

Aqualung
26-06-2014, 17:12
No longer a cider drinker-don't get me started on proper Kent Cider!

I fully understand that sentiment!!



As far as I know Biddenden Bushel is draught-I saw it on a hand pump t'other day:not sure of its "real " credentials. Probably is, as they are a genuine firm.

I looked this up, they do it in nine gallon casks and eleven gallon kegs. I would assume the cask would be approved but not the keg, even though I wouldn't mind betting the only difference is the gas pressure. It's "only" 6%, their old dry and medium ciders I seem to recall being 8.5%.

london calling
26-06-2014, 20:56
Camra,s cider website has a list of the more well known ciders that are not real.I think its what goes into it or what is removed that defines real rather than being served by a handpump.

Mobyduck
26-06-2014, 21:16
Camra,s cider website has a list of the more well known ciders that are not real.I think its what goes into it or what is removed that defines real rather than being served by a handpump.
You would think they would have a list of what is real.

Aqualung
27-06-2014, 00:40
Camra,s cider website has a list of the more well known ciders that are not real.I think its what goes into it or what is removed that defines real rather than being served by a handpump.

I had to google this as I couldn't find the page!



The most common ciders confused for being real are:
•Addlestones
•Bulmers Traditional
•Kingstone Press (Aston Manor)
•Rattler
•Taunton Traditional
•Thatchers Gold
•Westons Ice
•Westons in bottles
•'any cider with any non apple/pear fruit (for flavouring) added'
•'any cider with honey, herbs or spices added'


However, there are many others, for example:
•Amber Harvest (Aston Manor)
•Ashton Press
•Aspall
•Briska
•Brothers
•Bulmers
•Chardolini Perry (Aston Manor)
•Crumpton (Aston Manor)
•Diamond White
•Druids Celtic Cider (Aston Manor)
•Dry Blackthorn
•Duchy Originals (Aston Manor)
•Friels
•Frosty Jack's
•Gaymer's
•Golden Valley (Aston Manor)
•Harry Sparrow (Aspall)
•Hereford Orchard (Aston Manor)
•Jacques
•K Cider
•Knights (Aston Manor)
•Kopparberg
•Magners
•Malvern Gold (Aston Manor)
•Merrydown
•Natch
•Oakleys
•Old Moors (Devon Cider Co.)
•Red C
•Rekorderlig
•Robinsons
•SKU
•Samuel Smith's
•Scrumpy Dog
•Scrumpy Jack
•Sharp's Orchard Cornish Cider
•St Helier
•Stella Cidre
•Stowford Press
•Strongbow
•Symonds
•Taunton
•Tomos Watkin
•WKD Core
•Woodpecker




I notice that this list includes neither Biddendon keg Bushel or Thatcher's Heritage which I assume means it is out of date.

My objection to the definition is the addition of other fruits, herbs or honey to a "proper cider".
I seem to recall that in early CAMRA days they had a similar objection to "adjuncts" as they called them because the Big Six were using any old stuff in their rubbish beers. You don't hear anything about that at all now as since the micro expansion brewers will experiment with just about any ingredient (not just foreign hops). When it works it can be superb but I've tried several turkeys.

I wonder if any brewer will be bold enough to make a beer with Stinking Bishop cheese and raw garlic as additives.

london calling
27-06-2014, 21:47
Whats cider got to do with Camra anyway.Its not brewed and the success of real ale would not have happened if they had restricted the ingredients like cider wants to do.At the Ealing beer fest next week they have 43 beers with fruit additives and they really sell well to the younger crowd.Titanic -plum porter which has been on a few beer of the week lists would be banned under the cider reinheirsgebot.Anyone fancy Coachouse -banoffi beer next week?

Aqualung
27-06-2014, 22:48
Whats cider got to do with Camra anyway.Its not brewed and the success of real ale would not have happened if they had restricted the ingredients like cider wants to do.At the Ealing beer fest next week they have 43 beers with fruit additives and they really sell well to the younger crowd.Titanic -plum porter which has been on a few beer of the week lists would be banned under the cider reinheirsgebot.Anyone fancy Coachouse -banoffi beer next week?

CAMRA formed a cider offshoot way back in the 1980s, that's one reason virtually all CAMRA festivals include cider. The opposition to fruit additives and colouring (don't Stonehenge make a green coloured beer?) is there to oppose what the larger companies historically have done and still do to cut corners and make a cheap and nasty product look better. According to the current GBG an unnamed global abomination lists rice ahead of malt for it's concoction, implying they use more rice than malt.
However, a few years ago Brodie's made a Sake IPA.
I don't think it was that well received and went onto the Turkey list together with Peanut Butter Mild and this year's Peppermint Pale Ale.

I believe fruit or spiced beers started appearing around twenty or so years ago. The earliest would have been ginger and Xmas beers, although Dark Star Espresso was the first beer I remember using coffee. There was a brewery called Kitchen in the nineties that did fruit beers as well as (alarmingly) vegetable ones. I don't recall them ever having the bottle to make a Sprout Beer.
I'm just talking UK beers here as Belgian beers have included herbs since the year dot.

Quinno
28-06-2014, 00:12
I wonder if any brewer will be bold enough to make a beer with Stinking Bishop cheese and raw garlic as additives.

I have had a garlic beer - it wasn't great...

gillhalfpint
28-06-2014, 09:28
If you are into weird beer flavours, Church End is the one to try, especially when there are around 30 of them at the Church End beer festival at the Anchor in Birmingham.

Re cider, I cannot see why they have fruits banned when anything goes as far as beer is concerned these days.

Aqualung
28-06-2014, 12:34
Re cider, I cannot see why they have fruits banned when anything goes as far as beer is concerned these days.

I suspect that the answer is apathy. I only occasionally drink cider so I can't be bothered to challenge the definition. I'll start asking around, but the cider people are in a minority, most CAMRA types couldn't care less about cider unless it's the obvious targets for vilification like Strongbow and Magners.

london calling
28-06-2014, 21:40
I have had a garlic beer - it wasn't great...

The weirdest beer I have had was an imperial coffee stout from Mikkeller.The coffee is one of the most expensive in the world.Civit cats eat the coffee berry then the coffee bean passes through.The cat shit is then collected the beans are removed and turned into coffee.No it was not crap but an excellent but very expensive beer.Luckily I did not pay for it.

Aqualung
07-07-2014, 18:48
Do Old Rosie and Thatcher's Heritage count as real cider or does it have to come from a plastic container marked as experiment 'X' on the back bar?

Returning to the original question I have found a GBG listed pub in Staffordshire that sells Thatcher's Heritage and it is classed as a pub selling Real Cider. What's good enough for the GBG ought to be good enough here I would have thought, but whether the CAMRA cider committee would agree is another matter. Old Rosie is commonly found in Spoons and both CAMRA and myself have always regarded it as a "proper" cider.