Defunct pubs: a discussion (aka Britannia - pub or bank?)

[sheffield hatter]

Britannia (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/72996/) - this is a bank!!!


Further to Quinno's post Britannia (http://forums.pubsgalore.co.uk/showthread.php?16913-Deletion) I've stumbled on another. New Britannia (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/newpubs/26860/) If OP isn't going to include what these were prior to possibly being Building Societies then can these be deleted? I am on Banks Galore aren't I?


This is the problem with people that stick a load of defunct pubs on and say NOTHING in the comments to give it context. Mr Mason is very good at this.

The Britannia was a pub, in the 1870s, on the High St of Maidenhead (and i assume on that spot, it looks like it is from the historic mapping) - ironically, it is now a Britannia BS, and that is where the confusion lies.

It is irritating and lazy that people can't be bothered to say a basic comment to let everyone know.

I've copied the above from a couple of different parts of a forum (http://forums.pubsgalore.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?6-That-Doesn-t-Go-There!) in which conversation is barred, so that we can have a proper chat about:

1) Defunct pubs being added without any notes about when they were pubs and what happened to them,

2) Photos of places where there used to be a pub but there's now a block of flats or a bank,

3) Anything else, related or not. :)

Cheers

[Al 10000]

I dont think photos of banks,blocks of flats or gardens which have all had photos taken of them should be on this site.

I know i do add loads of closed pubs but always with a photo and review of the day i visited it,i have asked for opinions on me doing this and i thought it was ok for me to do.

The main gripe is mainly about a certain person who seems to add anything and everything to this site,i dont like what he does,i have had a private moan about this person but dont know what to do about it.

Take a look at the Norwich list loads of pubs added which will now never get a photo or review,all photos of these pubs were deleted,i wonder why.

I will continue to add lost pubs but always with a review and photo of the pub concerned.

[bcfczuluarmy]

Point 1

I've a list of old Bristol ones that have been and gone in my time in the City but resisted adding them especially if we consider point 2 as I've only got pictures of them now so see no point in adding them, although it could trigger other people's memories who may have a photo though. However, I'm not planning on adding them but if others did I'd add my now photo. I wouldn't go out my way to add new old pubs if I have nothing to bring to the table other than a new building on the former site of a pub picture.

Point 2

If a pub is listed on here I'll provide a picture in it's current state if it's closed, demolished or redeveloped, quite interesting to see what a pub became sometimes, probably more so if there was an original pub picture on here otherwise due to copyrights would see a interested party having to Google image pubs to see if pictures exist elsewhere.

[oldboots]

1) Defunct pubs being added without any notes about when they were pubs and what happened to them,

2) Photos of places where there used to be a pub but there's now a block of flats or a bank,

3) Anything else, related or not. :)

Cheers

There's no point whatsoever in adding a picture of a new building or a patch of ground unless there is a second photo with the pub as it was. I don't mind pictures of ex-pubs showing a new use but a comment or a picture of the building as a pub ought to be required.




I know i do add loads of closed pubs but always with a photo and review of the day i visited it, i have asked for opinions on me doing this and i thought it was ok for me to do.

... I will continue to add lost pubs but always with a review and photo of the pub concerned.

I don't have any problems with this approach.

[Quinno]

Context is everything. I don't mind having closed pubs listed (assuming we are talking about closed pubs from a sensible point in time, not some barely documented beer house from 1922!) but there really must be some background info. I listed a load for Reading but also put in a few words as to their history (mainly involving Good Beer Guide entry years, as these are at least something that maintains their legacy and makes them open to people querying their current status).

The problem is, that by trying to be a 'live' site on top of the current pub situation, I end up checking out all closed pubs on PUG when planning a trip to see whether they are 'proper closed' or just 'temporary closed'. I'm happy to seek out somewhere that may have re-opened/been permanently erased since the original submission to clarify the situation, but feel a bit fed-up to see places listed that end up having been closed longer than most of us have been alive with no note to say this on the page.

(NB - Dave, this isn't getting at you in any way, just me getting a little something off my chest - I appreciate that you are treading a fine political line! :) )

Solution - an extra icon to show whether the closure is one of being 'permanently dead - not coming back' (flats/supermarket) and another for 'closed - situation unresolved' (empty building)?

[Mobyduck]

I personally find this (http://forums.pubsgalore.co.uk/showthread.php?16850-Re-Please-Delete-Photos) example here (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/72432/) ridiculous . To be fair Tris C (he added the pub in the first place) has since asked for the photos to be deleted.But as mentioned elsewhere I cant work out if the pub was demolished in the 1920s what are John Mcgraws photos of?

[Aqualung]

I saw little point in adding this (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/74378/) pub to the site. I used to live in Clapton and knew all about the fact that this building was a previous pub (I've a vague recollection of being told it was a Whitbread pub). My personal view is that is completely pointless adding closed pubs but I'm not overly bothered either way. There are lots of pubs I've been to that have closed but I have no photos or notes about them, just memories.
At least Al 10000 has kept his notes and photos from the distant past, so adding them makes it quite acceptable for me.

Going back to Clapton E5 there is one closed pub that not only has the wrong address but as a result a completely wrong map position. I could correct this but what is the point?

I have a black and white photo of a very famous North Wales pub I photographed in the mid sixties (colour photography had not been invented then). I was too young to visit it at the time.
A few years later it became a Youth Hostel which I actually stayed at. Maybe I should add it with the picture and a review of the Youth Hostel. The food was rubbish as it consisted of a self cooked Vesta curry for two and a tinned sticky toffee pudding.

[sheffield hatter]

I personally find this (http://forums.pubsgalore.co.uk/showthread.php?16850-Re-Please-Delete-Photos) example here (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/72432/) ridiculous . To be fair Tris C (he added the pub in the first place) has since asked for the photos to be deleted.But as mentioned elsewhere I cant work out if the pub was demolished in the 1920s what are John Mcgraws photos of?

Tris C also added a comment that the street had been renumbered. I would guess that John McGraw's photo was of the right number, but the wrong building, and so should be deleted.

[sheffield hatter]

I saw little point in adding this (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/74378/) pub to the site. I used to live in Clapton and knew all about the fact that this building was a previous pub (I've a vague recollection of being told it was a Whitbread pub). My personal view is that is completely pointless adding closed pubs but I'm not overly bothered either way. There are lots of pubs I've been to that have closed but I have no photos or notes about them, just memories.

I would say if it's known to have been a pub and a present day photograph shows the building in much the same state as it would have been when it was a pub, I'd be quite happy to see it on the site. For two reasons: one is that if someone is doing some research into, say, pubs in Clapton, they might find themselves on this site and, appreciating the quality of the photos, the reviews and (especially) the debates on the Forum, decide to become regular members; secondly, if someone wants to add a pub like this and provides a photo and writes a note about when it was a pub and what it is now, they've done it because they love pubs and want to record the loss of part of the culture of this country. Some would say they can add it to the Closed Pubs (http://www.closedpubs.co.uk/) website (which of course they can), but to that I would say the pub deserves to be recorded on the best pubs website, Pubs Galore.


I have a black and white photo of a very famous North Wales pub I photographed in the mid sixties (colour photography had not been invented then). I was too young to visit it at the time.
A few years later it became a Youth Hostel which I actually stayed at. Maybe I should add it with the picture and a review of the Youth Hostel. The food was rubbish as it consisted of a self cooked Vesta curry for two and a tinned sticky toffee pudding.

Great stuff! Please add this pub!

[sheffield hatter]

Context is everything. I don't mind having closed pubs listed (assuming we are talking about closed pubs from a sensible point in time, not some barely documented beer house from 1922!) but there really must be some background info. I listed a load for Reading but also put in a few words as to their history (mainly involving Good Beer Guide entry years, as these are at least something that maintains their legacy and makes them open to people querying their current status).

The problem is, that by trying to be a 'live' site on top of the current pub situation, I end up checking out all closed pubs on PUG when planning a trip to see whether they are 'proper closed' or just 'temporary closed'. I'm happy to seek out somewhere that may have re-opened/been permanently erased since the original submission to clarify the situation, but feel a bit fed-up to see places listed that have been closed longer than most of us have been alive with no note to say this on the page.

Agree with all of this.

I must admit I add my share of closed pubs, mostly because when I'm out doing photos I'll often come across a building that was obviously a pub (either the remnants of a hanging sign's bracket, or just the name of the house which it's become clearly deriving from the pub it once was, or sometimes the trap for lowering barrels into the cellar) and will photograph it, half expecting to see it already listed on Pubs Galore when I get back to my PC. I reckon the photo makes it clear it's now in residential (or whatever) use, but I should really make a little extra effort and do a bit of research before adding it to the site.

[Soup Dragon]

Agree with all of this.

I must admit I add my share of closed pubs, mostly because when I'm out doing photos I'll often come across a building that was obviously a pub (either the remnants of a hanging sign's bracket, or just the name of the house which it's become clearly deriving from the pub it once was, or sometimes the trap for lowering barrels into the cellar) and will photograph it, half expecting to see it already listed on Pubs Galore when I get back to my PC. I reckon the photo makes it clear it's now in residential (or whatever) use, but I should really make a little extra effort and do a bit of research before adding it to the site.

I took a load off the site as there was no context to them. I love the historical aspect, as you all know, but if people put on ancient pubs without context, they run the risk of having them removed. I await a closed pub from from Pompeii.

With the way the site has developed, it does need an 'archive' category.

[Mobyduck]

With the way the site has developed, it does need an 'archive' category.
I totally agree with this. An interesting subject, but as it stands ,gets in the way of "live" pub searches.

[london calling]

I took a load off the site as there was no context to them. I love the historical aspect, as you all know, but if people put on ancient pubs without context, they run the risk of having them removed. I await a closed pub from from Pompeii.

With the way the site has developed, it does need an 'archive' category.

There are lots of closed pubs already from Pompey.

[london calling]

I also think they should be moved to a dead pubs list.Also any pub that has closed would be better removed and moved back if it re-opens.Easier said than done no doubt.
I may have a different agenda from many others on this site as I want decent beer as well as a chance to try new pubs so reviews that are years old seem to be pointless info to me.And as for a review while passing the pub on a bus. Well I never. Rant over. cheers john

[NickDavies]

As there's a box you can tick saying "show closed pubs" whenever you search for anything I'm not sure what the issue is. If you want to see closed pubs you can, if you don't you don't have to.

[rpadam]

As there's a box you can tick saying "show closed pubs" whenever you search for anything I'm not sure what the issue is. If you want to see closed pubs you can, if you don't you don't have to.
Agree 100%.

[Quinno]

As there's a box you can tick saying "show closed pubs" whenever you search for anything I'm not sure what the issue is. If you want to see closed pubs you can, if you don't you don't have to.


Agree 100%.

I think you're somewhat missing the point some of us are trying to make here:

Distinguishing (easily) between pubs that are closed but their fate has not been decided, as opposed to those that are long gone and are now a house/kebab shop/bank.

Some of the more assiduous travellers like to check the former category out to see what's happening to clarify the situation (I did this myself in Windsor yesterday). If a pub is listed closed and never appears on the search map, we run the risk of losing track of what has re-opened, as those who like to have a look are getting increasingly hampered searching through ever-increasing reams of closed pubs that haven't existed as such for donkey's years and are being added retrospectively. Sorting the wheat from the chaff is a labour-intensive exercise. Hence my suggestion for an additional icon to show this and Soups idea for an 'archive' category.

If it's one of those things Dave can set up, then I'm sure the usual suspects will happily assign closed pubs into the right box. And the site improves as a result. Win.

[Mobyduck]

As there's a box you can tick saying "show closed pubs" whenever you search for anything I'm not sure what the issue is. If you want to see closed pubs you can, if you don't you don't have to.
Yes I agree with what you say to a point, It is useful seeing closed pubs if you are researching an area you are not familiar with for a pub crawl,however my issue is with pubs that appear as a closed pub that was demolished 50 years ago, pointless clutter in my view. I'm not saying they should be forgotten, but as previously suggested moved to a separate archive spot,as it is an interesting subject.

[Bucking Fastard]

I think you're somewhat missing the point some of us are trying to make here:

Distinguishing (easily) between pubs that are closed but their fate has not been decided, as opposed to those that are long gone and are now a house/kebab shop/bank.

Some of the more assiduous travellers like to check the former category out to see what's happening to clarify the situation (I did this myself in Windsor yesterday). If a pub is listed closed and never appears on the search map, we run the risk of losing track of what has re-opened, as those who like to have a look are getting increasingly hampered searching through ever-increasing reams of closed pubs that haven't existed as such for donkey's years and are being added retrospectively. Sorting the wheat from the chaff is a labour-intensive exercise. Hence my suggestion for an additional icon to show this and Soups idea for an 'archive' category.

If it's one of those things Dave can set up, then I'm sure the usual suspects will happily assign closed pubs into the right box. And the site improves as a result. Win.


Well argued Quinno,I agree that if your (and Soupy's) idea of an archive category is technically feasible it would satisfy all parties and improve the site.From my point of view the definition of "archive" would be when the building in question can no longer be brought back into use as a pub.

[bcfczuluarmy]

If a new icon is added then if they have a picture it helps identify what category some of the closed ones fall into... E.G a block a flats would confirm it's a goner as would original building showing business names/nursing home etc. Help with the tidy up if it happens...

[Mobyduck]

Well argued Quinno,I agree that if your (and Soupy's) idea of an archive category is technically feasible it would satisfy all parties and improve the site.From my point of view the definition of "archive" would be when the building in question can no longer be brought back into use as a pub.
That is my view as well.

[Aqualung]

Well argued Quinno,I agree that if your (and Soupy's) idea of an archive category is technically feasible it would satisfy all parties and improve the site.From my point of view the definition of "archive" would be when the building in question can no longer be brought back into use as a pub.

It sounds good to me as well. If it gets implemented The Gorphwysfa Hotel may yet make an appearance.

[rpadam]

I think you're somewhat missing the point some of us are trying to make here:
With respect, I think I do understand the points being made (and you can probably put me in the 'assiduous traveller' category too).

We are all entitled to express an opinion, and mine is that the most important distinction is between pubs that are open and those which are not. Thus the 'closed pubs' filter works for me. That's all (but, of course, I do understand that others may take a different view).

PS - Having said that, I am - albeit to a lesser extent - interested in 'lost' pubs where the building is still extant so what does annoy me a bit is a pub being marked as closed without an explanation being given in the 'Notification' box so you don't know what its current status is. I have previously asked (several years ago, probably) whether it is possible to add or amend an explanation, but the answer at that time was that the pub would have to be marked as open again and then re-closed with a new / improved explanation. This was hardly a viable approach time-wise for either users or admins, so anything that enabled that functionality in a more streamlined manner would be beneficial.

[sheffield hatter]

I am - albeit to a lesser extent - interested in 'lost' pubs where the building is still extant so what does annoy me a bit is a pub being marked as closed without an explanation being given in the 'Notification' box so you don't know what its current status is. I have previously asked (several years ago, probably) whether it is possible to add or amend an explanation, but the answer at that time was that the pub would have to be marked as open again and then re-closed with a new / improved explanation. This was hardly a viable approach time-wise for either users or admins, so anything that enabled that functionality in a more streamlined manner would be beneficial.


Can we not use the review box for this? I know it's not strictly speaking a review, but if someone has some information about a pub that is not apparent from the summary page, such as "now demolished", surely the review box is the ideal location for it?

[Mobyduck]

I'm getting a touch of Deja_vu about this thread,
http://forums.pubsgalore.co.uk/showthread.php?16227-Whats-this-all-about

[rpadam]

Can we not use the review box for this? I know it's not strictly speaking a review, but if someone has some information about a pub that is not apparent from the summary page, such as "now demolished", surely the review box is the ideal location for it?
Yes one can (although I thought we were encouraged at one stage not to do this and use the 'Notification' box instead), but that is often not done either.

[Lady Grey]

I'm getting a touch of Deja_vu about this thread,
http://forums.pubsgalore.co.uk/showthread.php?16227-Whats-this-all-about

I'm glad someone else has remembered this thread!

[sheffield hatter]

New photos submitted this weekend of closed pubs in Ipswich. Unfortunately I approved one for the Queens Hotel (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubpictures/78904/) before realising that the building is the replacement for the pub, and not the pub itself. We now have three photos of this building, which to a casual user of the site makes it look as though we think it's a former pub!

Another example is the Royal Oak, Tavern Street (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubpictures/78905/), where there are already two photos of the HMV shop by Graham Mason and now two more submitted by John McGraw, which I have referred to Dave.

One of the good things about this site is that users can submit photos of pubs that already have photos. This not only gives scope for people to exercise their photographic talents and increase their feeling of belonging to the site, but also allows different aspects of the pubs to be shown, and changes in appearance and names over the years. None of this applies, in my opinion, to photos of an HMV shop that now occupies the site of a pub which, according to the local Camra branch (http://www.suffolkcamra.co.uk/pubs/pub/1172), was no longer in existence as early as 1883.

[Mobyduck]

New photos submitted this weekend of closed pubs in Ipswich. Unfortunately I approved one for the Queens Hotel (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubpictures/78904/) before realising that the building is the replacement for the pub, and not the pub itself. We now have three photos of this building, which to a casual user of the site makes it look as though we think it's a former pub!

Another example is the Royal Oak, Tavern Street (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubpictures/78905/), where there are already two photos of the HMV shop by Graham Mason and now two more submitted by John McGraw, which I have referred to Dave.

One of the good things about this site is that users can submit photos of pubs that already have photos. This not only gives scope for people to exercise their photographic talents and increase their feeling of belonging to the site, but also allows different aspects of the pubs to be shown, and changes in appearance and names over the years. None of this applies, in my opinion, to photos of an HMV shop that now occupies the site of a pub which, according to the local Camra branch (http://www.suffolkcamra.co.uk/pubs/pub/1172), was no longer in existence as early as 1883.
All the above are absolutely pointless in context to the pubs galore site as I understand it, this is only in my opinion of course.

[Bucking Fastard]

New photos submitted this weekend of closed pubs in Ipswich. Unfortunately I approved one for the Queens Hotel (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubpictures/78904/) before realising that the building is the replacement for the pub, and not the pub itself. We now have three photos of this building, which to a casual user of the site makes it look as though we think it's a former pub!

Another example is the Royal Oak, Tavern Street (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubpictures/78905/), where there are already two photos of the HMV shop by Graham Mason and now two more submitted by John McGraw, which I have referred to Dave.

One of the good things about this site is that users can submit photos of pubs that already have photos. This not only gives scope for people to exercise their photographic talents and increase their feeling of belonging to the site, but also allows different aspects of the pubs to be shown, and changes in appearance and names over the years. None of this applies, in my opinion, to photos of an HMV shop that now occupies the site of a pub which, according to the local Camra branch (http://www.suffolkcamra.co.uk/pubs/pub/1172), was no longer in existence as early as 1883.


In this discussion thread,I fully support the sentiments above from sheffield hatter.I can see no reason why ,once a pub is demolished,there should be any photographs on this site of a successor building.Such photos detract from the very nature of this excellent website and, in my opinion,add nothing.

[Rex_Rattus]

In this discussion thread,I fully support the sentiments above from sheffield hatter.I can see no reason why ,once a pub is demolished,there should be any photographs on this site of a successor building.Such photos detract from the very nature of this excellent website and, in my opinion,add nothing.
I couldn't agree more. I suspect it's done to increase the "pubs photographed" score. Similarly, I can't see much purpose in putting on a posting to say that flats have now been built on a site where it has previously been reported that the pub was demolished.

[Mobyduck]

In this discussion thread,I fully support the sentiments above from sheffield hatter.I can see no reason why ,once a pub is demolished,there should be any photographs on this site of a successor building.Such photos detract from the very nature of this excellent website and, in my opinion,add nothing.


I couldn't agree more. I suspect it's done to increase the "pubs photographed" score. Similarly, I can't see much purpose in putting on a posting to say that flats have now been built on a site where it has previously been reported that the pub was demolished.
Agreed, its all a waste of space.

[Soup Dragon]

In this discussion thread,I fully support the sentiments above from sheffield hatter.I can see no reason why ,once a pub is demolished,there should be any photographs on this site of a successor building.Such photos detract from the very nature of this excellent website and, in my opinion,add nothing.

I only add an update if the pub has been demolished since the last review said it was closed (usually just closed off on PG and no comment at all) - i do also add if a pub is still closed (and declining as a building) if not reviewed in a few years: this is especially true with regard to my Brum project as parts have never been, or not reviewed for ages.

[Al 10000]

Debenham Suffolk had 4 open pubs in 1988

It now has 15 pubs listed on this site in 2014 with 2 open

I could go on and on listing towns villages and cities that have got hundreds of pubs that had closed down over 50 years ago,these seem to be mainly in the south.

I have some good old maps showing pubs in certain cities which have 30 odd pubs on a single road,all long closed some over 100 years ago,i wont mention which cities for fear of some photographers going there and adding yet more pictures of shops,banks and fast food takeaways and houses.

[Al 10000]

New photos submitted this weekend of closed pubs in Ipswich. Unfortunately I approved one for the Queens Hotel (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubpictures/78904/) before realising that the building is the replacement for the pub, and not the pub itself. We now have three photos of this building, which to a casual user of the site makes it look as though we think it's a former pub!

Another example is the Royal Oak, Tavern Street (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubpictures/78905/), where there are already two photos of the HMV shop by Graham Mason and now two more submitted by John McGraw, which I have referred to Dave.
.

More photos appearing on the front page today of this pub,but at least we now have Spec Savers on to join the HMV shots :mad:

[Mobyduck]

More photos appearing on the front page today of this pub,but at least we now have Spec Savers on to join the HMV shots :mad:
To my mind this is absolutely pointless.