Whats this all about

[Mobyduck]

Just noticed on the main site a couple of reviews for the Cock & Crown (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/81152/)and the Black Boy & Still (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/81151/) ,stating that these pubs were demolished in the 1880's, if this is the case, how did they come to be added in the first place? Both added by the same reviewer by the way, I fail to see the point of this, historical interest maybe, but there are other sites for this. :confused:

[oldboots]

Tris C isn't the only one putting ancient pubs on, The Crown Inn (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/29378/) and The Country Man Inn (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/63111/) both shut for years although not in the 1880s and this The Norfolk Arms (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/76344/) I think shut in the 1920s - I could go on. Personally I don't see the point either unless it's a closed pub that may reopen.

On the other hand it doesn't really affect anything as closed pubs won't show up in searches or area lists unless you specifically select them and they don't show up on the maps at all. Maybe there is a limit to the number of pubs we can have on the site in which case they do need ridding out.

[Aqualung]

Just noticed on the main site a couple of reviews for the Cock & Crown (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/81152/)and the Black Boy & Still (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/81151/) ,stating that these pubs were demolished in the 1880's, if this is the case, how did they come to be added in the first place? Both added by the same reviewer by the way, I fail to see the point of this, historical interest maybe, but there are other sites for this. :confused:

I have to agree that I don't see the point of this. I have noticed plenty of pubs that I have been to long ago that are not to be found here. Most of these are rural pubs owned by former regional brewers like Ridley's and Brakspear, although I do know of one Harvey's pub. Pub closures are nothing new, only the unprecedented scale of them in the last 20 or so years. Surely the priority should be to find working pubs not on the database and pubs not marked as closed that should be. If old closed pubs are going to keep being added where will it end?

[Soup Dragon]

I have to agree that I don't see the point of this. I have noticed plenty of pubs that I have been to long ago that are not to be found here. Most of these are rural pubs owned by former regional brewers like Ridley's and Brakspear, although I do know of one Harvey's pub. Pub closures are nothing new, only the unprecedented scale of them in the last 20 or so years. Surely the priority should be to find working pubs not on the database and pubs not marked as closed that should be. If old closed pubs are going to keep being added where will it end?

Someone put a load on for Wolverhampton and Brum- I had them taken off - many in wolvo disappeared under the ring road in the 1960/70s. It isn't so bad if there is some context remark, saying it is closed - and/or a photo - however, putting on a pub that closed in 1880 with no photo or comment (other than marking it closed) is more for the lost pubs project in my opinion.

[bcfczuluarmy]

Agree I've remembered/discovered pubs lost in this century (2000+) around Bristol that have been demolished/converted with no intention of adding, once considered thoughtfully for the purpose of the site, as it serves no benefit. Some I made others I didn't. Plus with my OCD it would just waste my time correcting dead map points and taking pictures of what replaced them/the conversion etc.

As mentioned other sites are for this historical listing and these are generally covered on said sites.

[Blackthorn]

It isn't so bad if there is some context remark, saying it is closed - and/or a photo - however, putting on a pub that closed in 1880 with no photo or comment (other than marking it closed) is more for the lost pubs project in my opinion.

Agreed, although I must admit to having added a couple that closed about a hundred years ago, but in both cases the building was largely unchanged and I consequently included a picture of them as well as a few brief notes.

[Farway]

There was some discussion about closed pubs some years back, Dave M thought it was fine, just for historic reasons and completeness, a sort of one stop pub site for all, good for search engines etc.

After the decision I added on myself a bit since

[Lady Grey]

Personaly speaking, if I'm out and about taking photos of pubs and happen to notice a building with a best in the west plaque, I photograph the former pub and add it to Pubs Galore, because the building still exists. If an area needs updating and closed pubs are still listed, I try to photograph the site where the pub once stood (this is not always possible).
I don't think it's worth adding pubs that closed decades ago and have since been demolished, it would take up far too much space. Someone has already mentioned The Lost Pubs Project, This is a fairly good (if not always accurate!) website to include these long forgotten pubs.

[sheffield hatter]

I don't think it's worth adding pubs that closed decades ago and have since been demolished, it would take up far too much space. Someone has already mentioned The Lost Pubs Project, This is a fairly good (if not always accurate!) website to include these long forgotten pubs.

I've added quite a few of my photos of closed pubs to the Lost Pubs Project (http://www.closedpubs.co.uk/), and even added a few closed pubs that I've come across while out on my bike. As with all websites run by a small team on a voluntary basis, it's only as good as the information it receives, so I would encourage PuG members to get stuck in.

[Al 10000]

I have got a massive backlog of pubs to add to the site,that i went in in the 80s and 90s,some of these pubs were my regular haunts,but most were once only visits.

All pubs would come along with a photo and the date visited and the date i took the photo of the pub,there will also be either a list of beers on at the time of visit and more commonly a tied brewery that ran the pub.

Would members rather me leave adding these to the site.

I would also like to say,i do contribute to the Lost Pubs Project,but would prefer to add them to this site first,then if i have time i add pubs and photos the LPP.

[Mobyduck]

There was some discussion about closed pubs some years back, Dave M thought it was fine, just for historic reasons and completeness, a sort of one stop pub site for all, good for search engines etc.

After the decision I added on myself a bit since
I think it would be a good idea to have a separate PUG style historic pub area on the main site, I find it very interesting, but to add pubs that were levelled long before anyone reading this were alive, to a pub review site is in my opinion Ludicrous .


I've added quite a few of my photos of closed pubs to the Lost Pubs Project (http://www.closedpubs.co.uk/), and even added a few closed pubs that I've come across while out on my bike. As with all websites run by a small team on a voluntary basis, it's only as good as the information it receives, so I would encourage PuG members to get stuck in.
I agree, an interesting site, a PUG historic area running alongside the current site, as mentioned above would be good, (as if Dave hasn't enough on his plate).

[sheffield hatter]

I have got a massive backlog of pubs to add to the site,that i went in in the 80s and 90s,some of these pubs were my regular haunts,but most were once only visits.

All pubs would come along with a photo and the date visited and the date i took the photo of the pub,there will also be either a list of beers on at the time of visit and more commonly a tied brewery that ran the pub.

Would members rather me leave adding these to the site.

I would also like to say,i do contribute to the Lost Pubs Project,but would prefer to add them to this site first,then if i have time i add pubs and photos the LPP.

In my opinion if there's a review and/or a photo from a member, the pub should be added to Pubs Galore, even if it's subsequently been flattened for a motorway. So keep on adding those pubs, Al 10000!

If the pub building is still standing, so that it's recognisably a former pub and someone can go along to photograph it, I think it could be added to Pubs Galore even if no member has ever been in it to review it. Possibly it would be better on the Lost Pubs Project, though.

But if a pub was demolished several years before my grandfather was born, what on earth is it doing on this site?

[Aqualung]

I have got a massive backlog of pubs to add to the site,that i went in in the 80s and 90s,some of these pubs were my regular haunts,but most were once only visits.


Would members rather me leave adding these to the site.



I think you should add your reviews if you can find the time!
My only objection (and I don't really want to make a big song and dance about it) is adding new pubs that no longer exist simply because it seems so pointless and would be better directed at the LPP.

[Strongers]

So should we delete pubs from the site if they are demolished or turned into a Tesco Express?

[Rex_Rattus]

Alan - I agree with the others above that you should continue to add your pubs. I don't think anyone was suggesting that in your case, where you've actually been in the pubs and have something to say about them, and even photographed them, there is no point in adding them.

There are obviously other occasions when adding long closed pubs is worth the effort, particularly when the original building is still standing and would presumably have some architectural merit and can be photographed. There are others where I wouldn't bother - what about the original (and incredibly famous) Tabard in Southwark, which the Victorians demolished back in the 1880s? I wouldn't bother - but that's just my opinion, and if others think that it's worth the effort then I really don't mind. It's just that I prefer to concentrate my efforts on reviewing open pubs. In fact there are several Central London pubs that have been gone for 40 years or so that I remember, and could say something about, and may get round to if I ever run out of open pubs! But what I do think is a waste of time is photographing the block of flats that have been built on the site of a long closed pub - but if others want to spend their time doing such things then that's up to them.

[trainman]

I have got a massive backlog of pubs to add to the site,that i went in in the 80s and 90s,some of these pubs were my regular haunts,but most were once only visits.
Would members rather me leave adding these to the site.

.
I find 30 yr-old 'reviews' to be a huge negative to the site; it just smacks of a personal recording of 'I've been here' but provides no view of what the current pub (if one exists) is like.
I don't see an Al10000 review of, say, the Wellington in Birmingham, but his stance of not wishing to re-visit because he ticked it circa 1983 (and probably sampled a 'nice beer') is effin ludicrous! Pubs change! Recent reviews may be pertinent regarding that change, but stuff from another era when the beer world was sh1t, are simply detrimental to any pub guide site.

[sheffield hatter]

I find 30 yr-old 'reviews' to be a huge negative to the site; it just smacks of a personal recording of 'I've been here' but provides no view of what the current pub (if one exists) is like.
I don't see an Al10000 review of, say, the Wellington in Birmingham, but his stance of not wishing to re-visit because he ticked it circa 1983 (and probably sampled a 'nice beer') is effin ludicrous! Pubs change! Recent reviews may be pertinent regarding that change, but stuff from another era when the beer world was sh1t, are simply detrimental to any pub guide site.

Maybe you have a point, but I'm not sure that Pubs Galore is a "pub guide site", which would tend to undermine your argument a little. While I am on your side with regards to not revisiting a pub that I'd already "ticked" 30 years ago, I don't see Al's reviews of pubs visited in the 80s and 90s as "a huge negative". They provide a bit of interest and may even act as a stimulus to someone amongst our reviewers to go and see what that pub is like now, and provide an up to date review.

And as for "another era when the beer world was sh1t", I think you are suffering from a selective memory. The beer world was different then, obviously, and there are some innovative styles around today that weren't even dreamed of in the 1980s. But what about breweries like Shipstones and Boddingtons whose beers were widely available then but simply don't exist today, or at least not tasting anything like they used to. It's not all progress - and having a record of what it used to be like is useful.

[Wittenden]

Yes,it's all part of the community thing:I quite often refer to beer and pub books dating back to before I could legally drink, and am on a half hearted mission to visit all of the remaining pubs of a small brewery that closed in the 1920's. (Winch of Cranbrook, as you asked.)

[trainman]

Just stating my opinion. I don't find it helpful to know whether a pub sold beer from one of the 'big five' in the 70s/80s, or to see a closed pub in the listings unless it's in a separate tab and not interfering with current options. You don't think PG aspires to provide guidance on pubs?
And, btw, thank goodness shipstones is no longer available. That's progress. I think you're being rather selective there too Will, you can't possibly be hankering to turn back the beer clock?

[Farway]

I have got a massive backlog of pubs to add to the site,that i went in in the 80s and 90s,some of these pubs were my regular haunts,but most were once only visits.

All pubs would come along with a photo and the date visited and the date i took the photo of the pub,there will also be either a list of beers on at the time of visit and more commonly a tied brewery that ran the pub.

Would members rather me leave adding these to the site.

I would also like to say,i do contribute to the Lost Pubs Project,but would prefer to add them to this site first,then if i have time i add pubs and photos the LPP.


From previous thread, it seems Conrad & Dave M would rather have them on here for completeness & search engine optimisation, but I will let them speak for themselves if they wish to

[gillhalfpint]

I have had a look at what is involved here as I use the site differently from the rest of you I think, and look for open pubs when I start to look a place I am going to, and if you don't want closed pubs on the list you don't check the closed pub box so that is ok.

I then went to look at one I have been to before that I knew was closed to see what the map was like, and chose George IV in Sheffield. It didn't appear unless I checked the box, and I had a look at it's map, and it doesn't appear on the moveable map at all.

Something puzzled me though, there were no reviews for the pub, and I am sure I have done a review or two there when it was open. Are reviews deleted when a pub closes?

[Rex_Rattus]

I have had a look at what is involved here as I use the site differently from the rest of you I think, and look for open pubs when I start to look a place I am going to, and if you don't want closed pubs on the list you don't check the closed pub box so that is ok.

I then went to look at one I have been to before that I knew was closed to see what the map was like, and chose George IV in Sheffield. It didn't appear unless I checked the box, and I had a look at it's map, and it doesn't appear on the moveable map at all.
Something puzzled me though, there were no reviews for the pub, and I am sure I have done a review or two there when it was open. Are reviews deleted when a pub closes?

Reviews are certainly not deleted when a pub closes. If one of yours has gone then it must be a glitch, as I can't imagine any of yours qualifying for a "Report This Review" notification!

Closed pubs have never been included on the movable map. I think it was Conrad who took the view that if they were included then there would be far too many green dots - we wouldn't be able to see the wood for the trees as it were. And there is logic in this, as most of us seem happy for old closed pubs to be on the site, and I for one wouldn't want the map cluttered with pubs closed as long ago as the 1880s. Like you (and most of us I'm sure) I'm more interested in open pubs, and as long as they can be hidden from the lists by unticking a box then I'm OK with that.

[Soup Dragon]

Closed pubs have never been included on the movable map. I think it was Conrad who took the view that if they were included then there would be far too many green dots - we wouldn't be able to see the wood for the trees as it were. And there is logic in this, as most of us seem happy for old closed pubs to be on the site, and I for one wouldn't want the map cluttered with pubs closed as long ago as the 1880s. Like you (and most of us I'm sure) I'm more interested in open pubs, and as long as they can be hidden from the lists by unticking a box then I'm OK with that.

There is a difference between closed pubs and ones that were demolished in 1880. I visit closed pubs to see if they have re-opened, and then update PG. I wouldn't be happy to trapse across Brum looking for a pub that went in 1880 - hence, all i say, is if you put them on, put some context to it.... "this pub is now under Asda"...... so others don't go looking for it.

In an ideal world, we would have three colour codes - green for open, amber for closed and red for gone - but understandably, this takes work!

[Al 10000]

Just stating my opinion.
thank goodness shipstones is no longer available.

Thanks to the reviewers who dont mind me adding older pubs to the site with photos and a review,i did note that the reviewers who backed me up have reviewed quite a few pubs, Trainman seems to think this is a bad idea,but he hardly does any recent reviews himself,only 52 i think.

While i have been a member of PG i have took photos and visited pub in my local area that i would never have any intention of doing but for the good of PG and an up to date review.

Regarding the Wellington in Birmingham,yes i have been in it when it was a John Smiths tied house,i have taken a recent photo but i decided not to add an old review because the pub has a very high profile on PG,but i may now add an old crap review stating how good the John Smiths bitter was.

Whha has really annoyed me is the slating of Shipstones they produced a great bitter and mild,i was born and bred in Nottingham so Shippo's was my local drink,when i did early trips to Sheffield, Wards was the local beer,this tasted very strange at the start of a session,very nutty,but i soon got used to it and ended up really enjoying drinking Wards bitter.

I am not sure if you have ever drank Shipstones bitter on a regular basis to slate it like that,just the same with Boddingtons,this was a great straw coloured bitter that was really nice in the early 80s.

I would also like to say,i have reviewed over 300 pubs this year,all on recent visits with date visited.

[Rex_Rattus]

Just a few points Alan - Trainman's opinions are just that, his opinions on how to treat closed pubs and old reviews, to which you're quite entitled to disagree. I don't think the number of reviews he's contributed matters too much or makes his opinions less valid in this respect, as he no doubt uses the site to research open pubs for his own purposes.

Also, I agree with your approach to pubs like The Wellington in that it doesn't really help to post old reviews that bump down current, and arguably more relevant, reviews. And I wouldn't get too annoyed over someone else's opinions on Shipstone's - again it's just their opinions. I've never had Shipstone's as it doesn't seem to have made its way down south to London, so I've no axe to grind. There are some stouts and the like which other reviewers will no doubt rate as nectar of the Gods, but which I wouldn't touch with a bargepole - but that's just my personal taste and personal opinion.

But these are just my opinions, to which you're quite entitled to disagree!

[Aqualung]

I think this thread is losing direction, so I will pose this question. Should pubs that no longer exist be added as new entries to the database? My opinion is a big fat NO, but I'm not going to start kicking and screaming if others disagree.

[Mobyduck]

I think this thread is losing direction, so I will pose this question. Should pubs that no longer exist be added as new entries to the database? My opinion is a big fat NO, but I'm not going to start kicking and screaming if others disagree.
In a word -NO, which leads to another question ,should pubs that have been demolished in recent years but have reviews from when it was open ,deleted? I don't think so, but I think they should be moved to an archive database much in the way old beer of the week threads are stored.,(I have no idea how easy or not this would be for Dave to sort and maintain).I think this should also be where Alan's old reviews from the 80;s and 90's should go to save confusion with current reviews,not to hide them away but in a separate area for historical interest along with other pubs with reviews dating back older than ten years for example. maybe this is making things to complicated, just an idea.
I could add greatly to my review count but as visits to these pubs took place two or three or more years ago I don't feel they would be relevant to add to the site as it is now,in my opinion of course.

[london calling]

I certainly use PUG as a pub guide and thanks to London reviews have found some cracking pubs that I possibly would have missed.Dead pubs don't count imo.

[AlanH]

I find 30 yr-old 'reviews' to be a huge negative to the site; it just smacks of a personal recording of 'I've been here' but provides no view of what the current pub (if one exists) is like.
I don't see an Al10000 review of, say, the Wellington in Birmingham, but his stance of not wishing to re-visit because he ticked it circa 1983 (and probably sampled a 'nice beer') is effin ludicrous! Pubs change! Recent reviews may be pertinent regarding that change, but stuff from another era when the beer world was sh1t, are simply detrimental to any pub guide site.

I first got into the historical merits of closed pubs when Al10000 put a large number of them on in Clayton (East Manchester) where I used to work, and Hulme (South Manchester) where I used to do many pub crawls. As about 50 pubs in the two areas have been closed with most demolished, it gives me pleasure to look back and remember them. They may have gone for good, but PuG keeps them in my mind and memories. So keep it up Al and lets have more, especially as all yours have reviews and photographs.
As they are not on the interactive maps and can be turned off completely, it should not bother anyone who is not interested in them. But I wish there was an icon showing closed pubs only as there is on What Pub.

[gillhalfpint]

I first got into the historical merits of closed pubs when Al10000 put a large number of them on in Clayton (East Manchester) where I used to work, and Hulme (South Manchester) where I used to do many pub crawls. As about 50 pubs in the two areas have been closed with most demolished, it gives me pleasure to look back and remember them. They may have gone for good, but PuG keeps them in my mind and memories. So keep it up Al and lets have more, especially as all yours have reviews and photographs.
As they are not on the interactive maps and can be turned off completely, it should not bother anyone who is not interested in them. But I wish there was an icon showing closed pubs only as there is on What Pub.

That was why I was checking the map for one I knew had closed. It doesn't bother me having them on site as long as they are not on the interactive map, and they are not, so I am happy with that. If you want them you've got them, and if you don't want them you don't have to scroll trough them.

I get your point about the way Whatpub are doing it too. On here if you click the closed icon you get every pub, open and closed, and have to check down the x's.

[Lady Grey]

As with all websites run by a small team on a voluntary basis, it's only as good as the information it receives, so I would encourage PuG members to get stuck in.

I agree with that 100%

[Quinno]

I have got a massive backlog of pubs to add to the site,that i went in in the 80s and 90s,some of these pubs were my regular haunts,but most were once only visits.

All pubs would come along with a photo and the date visited and the date i took the photo of the pub,there will also be either a list of beers on at the time of visit and more commonly a tied brewery that ran the pub.

Would members rather me leave adding these to the site.

I would also like to say,i do contribute to the Lost Pubs Project,but would prefer to add them to this site first,then if i have time i add pubs and photos the LPP.

Personally I think that, so long as they come with a bit of info and a date of visit, then they should go on. Go for it.