Doors will shut on 4,000 'complacent' British pubs, warns drinkers' guide

[NickDavies]

Launch of Good Pub Guide 2014 - many news stories this morning based on their press release.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/aug/29/shut-british-pubs-drinkers

[hondo]

"stuck in the 1980s" i like the 80s i listen to absolute 80s and im watching reruns of Cheers & Magnum, P.I. on itv4 :cool:

"The Pub of The Year was named as the Olive Branch in Clipsham, Rutland" The Olive Branch (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/21072/) no reviews :eek:

[Gann]

[QUOTE=hondo;57742]
"The Pub of The Year was named as the Olive Branch in Clipsham, Rutland"

The Olive Branch is a Gastro pub. Basically from reviews on Trip Adviser and other food review sites its an upmarket restaurant hiding inside a pub skin..

I'm not actually surprised that this publication thinks this is the best pub in the land. This is in keeping with what a lot of the regional entries you find in The Good Pub guide and the one time I did shell out cash for it I found their idea of a good pub and mine were somewhat different. Hence I haven't wasted money on it since

[hondo]

[QUOTE=hondo;57742]
"The Pub of The Year was named as the Olive Branch in Clipsham, Rutland"

The Olive Branch is a Gastro pub. Basically from reviews on Trip Adviser and other food review sites its an upmarket restaurant hiding inside a pub skin..

I'm not actually surprised that this publication thinks this is the best pub in the land. This is in keeping with what a lot of the regional entries you find in The Good Pub guide and the one time I did shell out cash for it I found their idea of a good pub and mine were somewhat different. Hence I haven't wasted money on it since

i believe this publication charges recommended pubs to appear in the book :rolleyes:

[Strongers]

Launch of Good Pub Guide 2014 - many news stories this morning based on their press release.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/aug/29/shut-british-pubs-drinkers

STOP PRESS!!! Badly run business fails!!!

[trainman]

GPG has its uses, but is definitely biased toward foody pubs.
It steered me toward the excellent Royal Oak, in Luxborough, for an overnighter many moons ago and can be handy for pub alternatives to a restaurant lunch, but one could hardly use it to devise a beer tour...

[hondo]

"confirmed that pubs are charged up to £199 for large entries after they are judged good enough "to cover research and production costs”. :whistle:
http://www.iol.co.za/lifestyle/food-drink/drink/the-great-british-bar-brawl-1.1570088#.Uh9CB9KOTIc

[Farway]

I bought it once, at reduced clearance price

Very few pubs in my area [Southern Hampshire] and the few that were listed were gastro really, I am with Hondo, never wasted my money since

[NickDavies]

[QUOTE=hondo;57742]


I'm not actually surprised that this publication thinks this is the best pub in the land. This is in keeping with what a lot of the regional entries you find in The Good Pub guide and the one time I did shell out cash for it I found their idea of a good pub and mine were somewhat different. Hence I haven't wasted money on it since

It's meant for people in 4x4s with kids called Charlie and Chloe whose idea of a pub is somewhere to spend £100 on lunch while the kids run around pissing off any sane person remaining. The adults emit a load braying noise which usually translates into a discussion about house prices and the impossibility of finding a school good enough for their incredibly gifted offspring. They wouldn't be seen dead in a proper pub where their cleaner and the little man who fixes the plumbing would go if they were paid decently.

[Al 10000]

"stuck in the 1980s" i like the 80s i listen to absolute 80s and im watching reruns of Cheers & Magnum, P.I. on itv4 :cool:

"The Pub of The Year was named as the Olive Branch in Clipsham, Rutland" The Olive Branch (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/21072/) no reviews :eek:

We were going to do this pub on our last trip out that way,it was closed late Saturday afternoon,it probably keeps restaurant type hours.

[oldboots]

The PMA comments forum from licensees pretty much rubbishes the GPG, there's also a comment on the class angle here (http://velvetgloveironfist.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/bad-pubs.html)

4000 pubs a year = 77 a week, hardly a credible figure.

[ETA]

The BBC has also covered this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23877183

[Aqualung]

Of course this story that is all over the media today has absolutely no connection with the fact that the boring and useless Tome is released today. The whole thing must be a complete coincidence!!

[AlanH]

Why do the grauniad call the GPG a Drinker's guide! It is just another food guide. The pubs that serve indifferent drink are more likely to be the ones that pay their £1,900 to get in the guide! I know I would choose a community local to a "pub badged Restaurant" to get a decent drink.
Of course a decent drink to GPG people may be a £50 bottle of wine/champagne that is not available at the Corner Pin!!

[hondo]

"10,000 pubs has been long overdue"
http://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/General-News/Punch-Taverns-founder-Hugh-Osmond-10-000-pub-closures-long-overdue?utm_source=copyright&utm_medium=OnSite&utm_campaign=copyright

[Aqualung]

"10,000 pubs has been long overdue"
http://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/General-News/Punch-Taverns-founder-Hugh-Osmond-10-000-pub-closures-long-overdue?utm_source=copyright&utm_medium=OnSite&utm_campaign=copyright

What does that idiot or the muppet that runs Enterprise know? I don't believe the smoking ban has significantly affected anything. What has is the rip-off prices charged as a result of the policies of the likes of Punch and Enterprise as well as regional breweries, certainly in the South East. Low supermarket prices ARE a factor but it's overplayed by the industry so they can justify their rip-off prices. Most of the bottled beer in the supermarket is supplied by the whingeing regional brewers, so if they don't like it why don't they stop supplying them?
Enterprise and Punch swallowed up pubs owned by the former Big Six breweries which were already on my Avoid list. The vast majority of these were dumps, something anyone with a brain would have spotted when the deals were done.

In my opinion, breweries like Holts, Batham's, Holdens and others have the right idea. Fuller's, Young's, Shep's, McMullens and others are on a road to nowhere. (Yes Young's are a pubco, but I still think of them as a brewery.)

[Farway]

Like ^^^^^^^^^

[london calling]

What does that idiot or the muppet that runs Enterprise know? I don't believe the smoking ban has significantly affected anything. What has is the rip-off prices charged as a result of the policies of the likes of Punch and Enterprise as well as regional breweries, certainly in the South East. Low supermarket prices ARE a factor but it's overplayed by the industry so they can justify their rip-off prices. Most of the bottled beer in the supermarket is supplied by the whingeing regional brewers, so if they don't like it why don't they stop supplying them?
Enterprise and Punch swallowed up pubs owned by the former Big Six breweries which were already on my Avoid list. The vast majority of these were dumps, something anyone with a brain would have spotted when the deals were done.

In my opinion, breweries like Holts, Batham's, Holdens and others have the right idea. Fuller's, Young's, Shep's, McMullens and others are on a road to nowhere. (Yes Young's are a pubco, but I still think of them as a brewery.)

What do you mean by Holts etc having the right idea.

[Aqualung]

What do you mean by Holts etc having the right idea.

They are a small independent brewer with basic pubs that sell beer at a reasonable price (ie Spoons prices or less). I know of no equivalent South of the Midlands. Fuller's and the like charging over £4 a pint is a blatant rip-off. I'm talking about brewer's tied houses rather than genuine Free Houses or pubcos.

I notice from reviews that some pubs in Birmingham are now going in the direction of London & SE pubs with regard to prices.

[london calling]

They are a small independent brewer with basic pubs that sell beer at a reasonable price (ie Spoons prices or less). I know of no equivalent South of the Midlands. Fuller's and the like charging over £4 a pint is a blatant rip-off. I'm talking about brewer's tied houses rather than genuine Free Houses or pubcos.

I notice from reviews that some pubs in Birmingham are now going in the direction of London & SE pubs with regard to prices.

I don't want basic pubs selling cheap beer.I probably unlike most of the posters here like modern style pubs the best.Fullers my local brewery are spending mega bucks buying pubs but only top quality pubs.They cant sell beer at £2 a pint when you have paid millions to buy a pub.

[Aqualung]

I don't want basic pubs selling cheap beer.I probably unlike most of the posters here like modern style pubs the best.Fullers my local brewery are spending mega bucks buying pubs but only top quality pubs.They cant sell beer at £2 a pint when you have paid millions to buy a pub.


Fair enough, we'll both vote with our feet!

Fuller's still manage to sell their bottles to the supermarkets at a price that allows the supermarket to sell them at well under £2.

[Farway]

Fair enough, we'll both vote with our feet!

Fuller's still manage to sell their bottles to the supermarkets at a price that allows the supermarket to sell them at well under £2.

One of local Fuller's pubs The Heroes (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/14099/) is selling all at £2 pint weekdays until 5. adjacent to Denmead Queen (JD Weatherspoon) (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/75431/) so I can only think Fuller's are taking the profit hit here

[Aqualung]

One of local Fuller's pubs The Heroes (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/14099/) is selling all at £2 pint weekdays until 5. adjacent to Denmead Queen (JD Weatherspoon) (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/75431/) so I can only think Fuller's are taking the profit hit here

Does that include ESB? I don't think I could face London Pride even at that price.

[Mobyduck]

I don't think I could face London Pride even at that price.
Agreed.

[Farway]

Does that include ESB? I don't think I could face London Pride even at that price.

Not tried, perhaps a return research visit is called for, but down here [ex Gale's pubs] choice is normally LP, HSB & Seafarers, never seen ESB on draught, but never really looked

[london calling]

Not tried, perhaps a return research visit is called for, but down here [ex Gale's pubs] choice is normally LP, HSB & Seafarers, never seen ESB on draught, but never really looked
It,s rare to see ESB on draught in any of the Fullers pubs around my way.Not a big seller and a lot gets wasted.When I first moved to this area it was classed as a very strong beer now the craft bars in London would class this as a session beer.Changed times eh.

[london calling]

Not tried, perhaps a return research visit is called for, but down here [ex Gale's pubs] choice is normally LP, HSB & Seafarers, never seen ESB on draught, but never really looked

Do you still get Festival mild or has that been dropped.

[Aqualung]

It,s rare to see ESB on draught in any of the Fullers pubs around my way.Not a big seller and a lot gets wasted.When I first moved to this area it was classed as a very strong beer now the craft bars in London would class this as a session beer.Changed times eh.

It can be argued that ESB saved Fullers from extinction. In the early days of CAMRA Young's were king in London and apart from Abbot and Ruddles County in a few free houses, Young's Special was the strongest thing around. Fuller's had a poor repitation (the first GBG** said of them "Only a handful of draught houses". If it wasn't for the Star in Belgravia Fuller's reputation would have been even worse than it was. It was little known at the time, but Fuller's had a beer called ESB even then, but only on sale (mainly pressurised) in around a quarter of their hundred or so houses. When Real Ale started taking off, Fuller's got rid of the pressurised beers in nearly all their pubs and ESB became a common feature in many of them. Fuller's reputation soared almost literally overnight and their expansion into effectively a national brewer began.


** I don't know if this is common knowledge, but PDF files of the 1974 GBG and the earlier prototype can be downloaded from the CAMRA web site.


Do you still get Festival mild or has that been dropped.

To me this was the best thing that ever came out of Horndean. I haven't seen or heard of it since soon after Fuller's took them over when the Drum had a Fuller's festival (all the beers were standard cheap end Spoons prices).

[oldboots]

Fuller's "unique selling point" at the time (mid 1970s) was the claim to be Britain's strongest regularly brewed draught beer, that certainly won over this impressionable young lad who actively sought it out.

The 1977 GBG calls it "full-bodied, well hopped and distinctive: the strongest bitter in Britain." It also says 16 out of the 111 tied houses sell unpressurised beer - by 1978 this had gone up to 31 out of 110.

[Bucking Fastard]

The 1975 GBG entry for Fullers states " Fine beers,including Extra Special Bitter,the strongest known draught bitter in the country.But only 10 of the 116 tied houses sell unpressurised ale "

Thank goodness Fuller's saw the light.These days I do appreciate their seasonal ales Red Fox,London Porter,Wild River,Black Cab Stout etc etc.

[Aqualung]

Fuller's "unique selling point" at the time (mid 1970s) was the claim to be Britain's strongest regularly brewed draught beer, that certainly won over this impressionable young lad who actively sought it out.

The 1977 GBG calls it "full-bodied, well hopped and distinctive: the strongest bitter in Britain." It also says 16 out of the 111 tied houses sell unpressurised beer - by 1978 this had gone up to 31 out of 110.

I have to admit that I hadn't realised the conversion was such a slow process. The three places I drank ESB in the mid seventies were the Anchor and Hope in E5, occasionally the Star in Belgravia and my old student union bar where I worked one night a week. All of these were cask. The Anchor and Hope (which was previosly a Tolly house) had to be cask as the Young's pub down the river was a mecca for East London real ale drinkers.

[Mobyduck]

Thank goodness Fuller's saw the light.These days I do appreciate their seasonal ales Red Fox,London Porter,Wild River,Black Cab Stout etc etc.
Not convinced by the Red Fox ,but the rest I enjoy , its a shame the standard range is so average.

[sheffield hatter]

** I don't know if this is common knowledge, but PDF files of the 1974 GBG and the earlier prototype can be downloaded from the CAMRA web site.


Here's the link (http://www.camra.org.uk/page.php?id=50).

[NickDavies]

"Real Beer in London", Camra, 1975 (first ever edition) has 12 of the 116 tied houses "on draught" and notes that "ESB is the strongest draught beer in the country"

the 12 tied houses:

Anchor and Hope (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/25006/), Clapton E5
Star (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/27840/), SW1
Roebuck (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/24732/), Chiswick W4
Windmill (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/24738/), Chiswick, W4 - gone
Red Lion (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/64616/), Ealing, W5
Dove (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22649/), Hammersmith, W6
Warwick Arms (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/24835/), Warwick Rd W14
Queens Head (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/27655/), Cranford
Lord Palmerston (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/27654/), Hounslow - gone
George and Dragon, Isleworth - listed as London Road, not on PuG - any ideas?
Royal Standard (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/35570/), Croydon
Prince Albert (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/27840/), Twickenham

Either this one, or one of the above was not a Fullers pub. I'm guessing this one as it isn't today, but did Pride and ESB then; feel free to correct me!

George (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/27834/), Twickenham

plus two free houses in the West Ends listed

Carpenters Arms (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22205/), Seymour Place, W1
Coronet (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/79346/), Soho St, W1 - gone

One of our college bars had Pride and ESB by 1977 when I got there, the must have been pushing into the free trade by then.

[Mobyduck]

"Real Beer in London", Camra, 1975 (first ever edition) has 12 of the 116 tied houses "on draught" and notes that "ESB is the strongest draught beer in the country"

the 12 tied houses:

Anchor and Hope (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/25006/), Clapton E5
Star (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/27840/), SW1
Roebuck (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/24732/), Chiswick W4
Windmill (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/24738/), Chiswick, W4 - gone
Red Lion (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/64616/), Ealing, W5
Dove (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22649/), Hammersmith, W6
Warwick Arms (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/24835/), Warwick Rd W14
Queens Head (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/27655/), Cranford
Lord Palmerston (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/27654/), Hounslow - gone
George and Dragon, Isleworth - listed as London Road, not on PuG - any ideas?
Royal Standard (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/35570/), Croydon
Prince Albert (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/27840/), Twickenham

Either this one, or one of the above was not a Fullers pub. I'm guessing this one as it isn't today, but did Pride and ESB then; feel free to correct me!

George (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/27834/), Twickenham

plus two free houses in the West Ends listed

Carpenters Arms (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22205/), Seymour Place, W1
Coronet (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/79346/), Soho St, W1 - gone

One of our college bars had Pride and ESB by 1977 when I got there, the must have been pushing into the free trade by then.
According to this (http://www.beerintheevening.com/pubs/s/23/2345/George_and_Dragon/Brentford) The George And Dragon (if its the same place) was demolished earlier this year.
And have now found this (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/27425/).

[oldboots]

Here's the link (http://www.camra.org.uk/page.php?id=50).

members only I'm afraid.

[london calling]

"Real Beer in London", Camra, 1975 (first ever edition) has 12 of the 116 tied houses "on draught" and notes that "ESB is the strongest draught beer in the country"

the 12 tied houses:

Anchor and Hope (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/25006/), Clapton E5
Star (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/27840/), SW1
Roebuck (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/24732/), Chiswick W4
Windmill (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/24738/), Chiswick, W4 - gone
Red Lion (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/64616/), Ealing, W5
Dove (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22649/), Hammersmith, W6
Warwick Arms (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/24835/), Warwick Rd W14
Queens Head (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/27655/), Cranford
Lord Palmerston (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/27654/), Hounslow - gone
George and Dragon, Isleworth - listed as London Road, not on PuG - any ideas?
Royal Standard (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/35570/), Croydon
Prince Albert (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/27840/), Twickenham

Either this one, or one of the above was not a Fullers pub. I'm guessing this one as it isn't today, but did Pride and ESB then; feel free to correct me!

George (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/27834/), Twickenham

plus two free houses in the West Ends listed

Carpenters Arms (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22205/), Seymour Place, W1
Coronet (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/79346/), Soho St, W1 - gone

One of our college bars had Pride and ESB by 1977 when I got there, the must have been pushing into the free trade by then.

I moved to Brentford in 1975 and the George and Dragon as far as I remember was Charringtons.

[Quinno]

Do you still get Festival mild or has that been dropped.

Last saw it about four years ago. I bloody love that beer, best thing Fullers (as Gales now is) brew.

[london calling]

I remember have a drink in the Royal Tar Brentford on Christmas day and a young guy boasting he often drank up to 10 pints of ESB.As it was a slow seller Martin the barman told the guy he could have as much as he wanted free as it would be poured away as they were shutting for a couple of days.He did nearly drink 6 pints but was carried out of the pub.No Chrismas dinner for him that year.

[Aqualung]

I moved to Brentford in 1975 and the George and Dragon as far as I remember was Charringtons.
You're absolutely right, I've just checked an old West London guide. It seems odd that they should buy that one up when they already had so many in Brentford and South Ealing.

I remember when I did the Fuller's Passport some twenty years ago there was a Red Lion in the High Street that just did keg. It was a music venue and the bloke told me that they didn't sell real ale because the vibrations from the amplified music shook the barrels making the beer cloudy. I didn't believe a word of it. As far as I remember this was the only one of the 200 that had no real ale.
Strangely this site lists three closed Red Lions in Brentford High Street at numbers 318, 322 and 197. My old West London guide just has the one at 318.

[Strongers]

I remember when I did the Fuller's Passport some twenty years ago there was a Red Lion in the High Street that just did keg. It was a music venue and the bloke told me that they didn't sell real ale because the vibrations from the amplified music shook the barrels making the beer cloudy. I didn't believe a word of it. As far as I remember this was the only one of the 200 that had no real ale.
Strangely this site lists three closed Red Lions in Brentford High Street at numbers 318, 322 and 197. My old West London guide just has the one at 318.

I have a vague recollection of their being a large pub on the corner of the High Street and Ealing road which was the Red Lion. It’s now a McDonalds on a large plot of land so it may have been 318 – 322 Brentford High Street.

From http://www.bhsproject.co.uk/section17.shtml
The Red Lion (197)
Originally a coaching inn, it may have been running as early as 1446 (reference to Henry IV holding a Chapter of the Garter at the ‘Lion’ inn of Brentford (Q63)). New Brentford church services were held at the Red Lion in the 1760s, whilst the church of St Lawrence was rebuilt (Q49).
At the time the Pigot directory for 1839 was prepared, Sarah Pearce was the publican. There is a PCC will for Isaac Pearce, licensed victualler of New Brentford dated 1835, presumably her husband.
By 1851 Frederick Shipley had taken over, and he is listed in the 1861 census too. He was succeeded by John Wetherley by 1871; George Loader (1881); William Henry Fear (1890 & 1891); William Farmer or Farriner, from Brighton, Sussex (1901).
The valuation on 3rd December 1914 describes the property as ‘3 storey building, upper part cement faced. Painted lower part with wood front and glazed with double swing doors; green tiled dado to centre. Wood cellar flap in pavement


Ground floor: 2 public saloon & bottle bars; kitchen; scullery & parlour; outside WC
Basement: cellar
First floor: 3 rooms
Top floor: 2 rooms, bathroom & WC.

Good condition. Urinal in yard at rear. 20’ frontage.
The occupier was Richard Boxall (who may be a descendant of George Boxall, who ran the Magpie & Crown at no. 128 in the late 1830s to mid 1840s); the owner Truman, Hanbury, Buxton & Co Ltd, Brick Lane, Spitalfields. Freehold, term – yearly, from 18 Jan 1909. Rent £52. Gross value: £2375.
The Red Lion closed in 1928 and the London Co-op opened here in the same year, remaining here until at least 1940. Used by Barclays Bank in 2003 and is now the first building after the Market Place (L).

[Strongers]

If interested, check out the photos of Brentford High Street at the bottom and to the left of the web page, totally unrecognisable! Like the Red Lion at 197, the Castle Hotel listed on this site also closed many moons ago. Very interesting site for those who know Brentford.

[NickDavies]

You're absolutely right, I've just checked an old West London guide. It seems odd that they should buy that one up when they already had so many in Brentford and South Ealing.



A comment by one Mr Bonsor on another pub review web site says that it was part of a larger pub swap between Fullers and Charringtons sometime in the seventies; indeed now I think about it I'm sure this one (http://www.closedpubs.co.uk/london/se25_southnorwood_goathouse.html) which I knew well was part of the same deal.

[Rex_Rattus]

Do you still get Festival mild or has that been dropped.

I'm sure I had a pint of it in Ye Olde Mitre a couple of months ago.

[london calling]

You're absolutely right, I've just checked an old West London guide. It seems odd that they should buy that one up when they already had so many in Brentford and South Ealing.

I remember when I did the Fuller's Passport some twenty years ago there was a Red Lion in the High Street that just did keg. It was a music venue and the bloke told me that they didn't sell real ale because the vibrations from the amplified music shook the barrels making the beer cloudy. I didn't believe a word of it. As far as I remember this was the only one of the 200 that had no real ale.
Strangely this site lists three closed Red Lions in Brentford High Street at numbers 318, 322 and 197. My old West London guide just has the one at 318.

They knocked down the pub at 318 and rebuilt it at 322.It was a music pub and I used to play in the pool team.It was also the first winner of the Evening Standard pub of the year.So it must have been a good pub at one time.

[Farway]

Do you still get Festival mild or has that been dropped.

Sorry folks, lost the landline connection for a couple of days.

Not seen Festival mild at all