CAMRA - bought and sold for Spoonsie gold?

[Soup Dragon]

Is it me, or is there a substantial amount of Spoons places in the GBG 2013? I find this, for want of a better phrase, gobsmacking.

To me, the quality of Spoons beer is up and down, to the point that i would rather have two half pints of different beers that a pint of a single one. Flatness, turning beer, and the inability of staff to pour or understand the product seem to be common accusations. One asks, is this due to the 50p vouchers - and a membership more interested in using them than going to pubs that offer a better product, but costs a little more?

I stopped at Ross-on-Wye on my way back from Wales - for which the only pub in the GBG is the Spoons. I visited 4 places and the Spoons beer was the worst kept, even coming behind a place that did one real ale and which seemed a little out of place on the bar! The King's Head Hotel blew it out of the water, as far as beer goes and there was no chips on the floor either. While down there, the Caradoc in Port Talbot had turning beer.

Your thoughts are most welcome.

[gillhalfpint]

I agree that not all GBG Spoons are as good as a lot of the other pubs around. Vouchers may have a lot to do with that, but not being involved on a higher level, wouldn't really know. I have noticed a lot of them getting in the guide though.

[Aqualung]

I stopped at Ross-on-Wye on my way back from Wales - for which the only pub in the GBG is the Spoons. I visited 4 places and the Spoons beer was the worst kept, even coming behind a place that did one real ale and which seemed a little out of place on the bar! The King's Head Hotel blew it out of the water, as far as beer goes and there was no chips on the floor either. While down there, the Caradoc in Port Talbot had turning beer.

Your thoughts are most welcome.

I can't comment on Ross-On-Wye as I've never been there. There are two problems, the entries are compiled at least six months before the guide is published and then Spoons managers regularily get turned round.

A local example for me, the GBG Coronet in Holloway Road was excellent a year ago but is now rubbish. The GBG Walnut Tree in Leytonstone has declined, but the non-GBG George in Wanstead has gone from avarage to excellent, apart from the fact that some idiot thinks it's a good idea to sell Doombar and Pride. Out of interest, what beer(s) did the King's Head Hotel sell?
"Boring" beers may be a factor or maybe they don't sell the stuff all year round in a tourist area. I had three beers in the GBG listed Drum in E10 last week and only one of them was very good. I put it down to the thundery weather.

Of course some parts of the country, Romford for example don't really have much other than Spoons.

[Soup Dragon]

I can't comment on Ross-On-Wye as I've never been there. There are two problems, the entries are compiled at least six months before the guide is published and then Spoons managers regularily get turned round.

A local example for me, the GBG Coronet in Holloway Road was excellent a year ago but is now rubbish. The GBG Walnut Tree in Leytonstone has declined, but the non-GBG George in Wanstead has gone from avarage to excellent, apart from the fact that some idiot thinks it's a good idea to sell Doombar and Pride. Out of interest, what beer(s) did the King's Head Hotel sell?
"Boring" beers may be a factor or maybe they don't sell the stuff all year round in a tourist area. I had three beers in the GBG listed Drum in E10 last week and only one of them was very good. I put it down to the thundery weather.

Of course some parts of the country, Romford for example don't really have much other than Spoons.

Sorry for swift response - Doombar and Wye Valley Bitter and Butty Bach. Otter Amber in Crown & S and Pride, Youngs London Gold and Butcombe Gold in Eagle. I do get your point.... it isn't about not seeing any at all, but about seeing so many in the GBG that i can't understand!

One day will shall have to have a PG meet-up doing just Spoons - or was that Reading? ;)

[Quinno]

Sorry for swift response - Doombar and Wye Valley Bitter and Butty Bach. Otter Amber in Crown & S and Pride, Youngs London Gold and Butcombe Gold in Eagle. I do get your point.... it isn't about not seeing any at all, but about seeing so many in the GBG that i can't understand!

Simple to understand really. Each CAMRA branch selects their GBG allocation.

In theory, it should be based almost exclusively on beer quality (submitted beer scores from all CAMRA members) over the preceding 12 months (and yes, some of us are arguing for the time lag to be reduced even going so far as to draft a motion for the AGM before last which we've kept in the cupboard for various reasons - one being that you can't submit the same or similar motion within X years if it fails).

Anyway, it should be a thorough and impartial process. I know it is with my branch, but I can't vouch for others. Our JDW entries are in simply because they were both in the Top 18 pubs out of 150 beer-scoring wise in 2011 (or 2012 when the new Guide comes out - only one JDW features this time).

Incidentally, we have introduced a specific JDW clause into our GBG rulebook regarding tenure of management/cellar staff. The Baron Cadogan (JD Wetherspoon) (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/56820/) has had a very slow turnover of staff and the guy who 'does' the beer has been there for a few years and is left to get on with the job, usually. Hence it has been in the last five GBG's or so.

I can say hand-on-heart the 50p vouchers make no difference to us as a branch. It's the "Murderer's Arms" argument (RATs in Viz) - eg if the roughest pub in Reading started doing ale and it was clearly good enough for GBG would we put it in? Yes we would.

I agree though that the 50p vouchers can look, to an outsider, as an inducement to treat JDW more favourably.



One day will shall have to have a PG meet-up doing just Spoons - or was that Reading? ;)

You are a cheeky b@stard! :rolleyes:

[Mobyduck]

One day will shall have to have a PG meet-up doing just Spoons - or was that Reading? ;)
Please don't do this. :sick:

[gillhalfpint]

I know pubs can come out of GBG if they change hands as the new person has to prove themselves. If Spoons managers change so often I would have thought this in itself would mean a GBG entry for consistently kept good beer would be suspect.

[Quinno]

I know pubs can come out of GBG if they change hands as the new person has to prove themselves. If Spoons managers change so often I would have thought this in itself would mean a GBG entry for consistently kept good beer would be suspect.

Depends if they have a dedicated cellarman or not. Most don't, but some do.

[Mobyduck]

Is it me, or is there a substantial amount of Spoons places in the GBG 2013? I find this, for want of a better phrase, gobsmacking.

To me, the quality of Spoons beer is up and down, to the point that i would rather have two half pints of different beers that a pint of a single one. Flatness, turning beer, and the inability of staff to pour or understand the product seem to be common accusations. One asks, is this due to the 50p vouchers - and a membership more interested in using them than going to pubs that offer a better product, but costs a little more?

I stopped at Ross-on-Wye on my way back from Wales - for which the only pub in the GBG is the Spoons. I visited 4 places and the Spoons beer was the worst kept, even coming behind a place that did one real ale and which seemed a little out of place on the bar! The King's Head Hotel blew it out of the water, as far as beer goes and there was no chips on the floor either. While down there, the Caradoc in Port Talbot had turning beer.

Your thoughts are most welcome.
I think my feelings on spoons pubs in general are by now well known and in the past have questioned ,in my view an over enthusiastic inclusion in the GBG, If its just down to beer quality I don't think they are consistent enough, of course this is a generalisation but all the same it smacks of back scratching to me.

[Quinno]

I think my feelings on spoons pubs in general are by now well known and in the past have questioned ,in my view an over enthusiastic inclusion in the GBG, If its just down to beer quality I don't think they are consistent enough, of course this is a generalisation but all the same it smacks of back scratching to me.

Well all you need to do is core beer as you find it and assume:

a) everyone else is doing likewise
b) the local CAMRA branch are straight

[Mobyduck]

Well all you need to do is core beer as you find it and assume:

a) everyone else is doing likewise
b) the local CAMRA branch are straight
Hmm.

[oldboots]

I can only speak for my branch and the vouchers make no difference to us, some members don't even use their vouchers. We have 24 pubs allocated and competition is fierce, anyone putting forward a JDW on the basis of the voucher scheme would be laughed at. I don't see a motive for individual branches, and GBG decisions are purely branch ones, to award GBG places according to voucher/discount schemes.

[Soup Dragon]

I can only speak for my branch and the vouchers make no difference to us, some members don't even use their vouchers. We have 24 pubs allocated and competition is fierce, anyone putting forward a JDW on the basis of the voucher scheme would be laughed at. I don't see a motive for individual branches, and GBG decisions are purely branch ones, to award GBG places according to voucher/discount schemes.

Not saying they would put it forward on that basis, just that they are more inclined to go in and then thay have a better advantage

[NickDavies]

I think my feelings on spoons pubs in general are by now well known and in the past have questioned ,in my view an over enthusiastic inclusion in the GBG, If its just down to beer quality I don't think they are consistent enough, of course this is a generalisation but all the same it smacks of back scratching to me.

It's worth remembering that many people have a remarkably uncritical loyalty to one brand over another, and that can be in spades when it comes to pubs. I was at a conference in Brighton recently and half the delegates trooped round to the Bright Helm, (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/54249/) which is well in the running for the world's worst JDW title. Why? Because wherever they are they always go to the Wetherspoons, it's cheap, familiar, they know the ropes. Even the Shite Helm won't put them off. If you've got a few people like that in your CAMRA branch the chances are you'll get more JDWs in the GBG.

[Aqualung]

There is always going to be a temptation to go to a Spoons that isn't a complete joke even without the vouchers. At least the decent ones do have a variety of beers, whereas some of the other GBG entries seem to just have boring beers without even the temptation of guest beers.

At the moment, if I go to a new area in London I just go to Spoons UNLESS there is something that looks very tempting nearby that is open. I normally have a fixed itineray, so I won't go into somewhere on the off-chance. As a result Spoons may get a better feedback than pubs that aren't noted Ale Houses, assuming I use the CAMRA rating system.

I notice that in Highgate (N6) there is a pub The Red Lion And Sun (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/25475/) that according to the 2013 GBG sells JUST GK Morland's Original. I note that the reviews from 2 years ago suggest there may be more, but the fact is that I would not venture in this place even if I knew the beer was £1.50 a pint.

I would like to return to Highgate to try the place that brews it's own, and would also revisit the Spoons and maybe try the Prince of Wales but there is no chance I would go to the Morland's one.

[Quinno]

Not saying they would put it forward on that basis, just that they are more inclined to go in and then thay have a better advantage

I don't follow your logic. Pubs should be selected on good 'average' beer quality not a gross total so it wouldn't matter how often a JDW gets visited by any CAMRA member (presuming they their scores aren't influenced positively on the basis of a 50p voucher).

[Soup Dragon]

I don't follow your logic. Pubs should be selected on good 'average' beer quality not a gross total so it wouldn't matter how often a JDW gets visited by any CAMRA member (presuming they their scores aren't influenced positively on the basis of a 50p voucher).

If you go into a pub regularly because of an incentive, you may think it gets better. I know of a pub that won a local CAMRA pub of the year because they were visited often, as 'they' helped to run the magazine! Never won it before, or after they left. While any marking scheme seems straight-forward enough, it gets very complicated when you throw 'people' into the equation!

[Quinno]

If you go into a pub regularly because of an incentive, you may think it gets better. I know of a pub that won a local CAMRA pub of the year because they were visited often, as 'they' helped to run the magazine! Never won it before, or after they left. While any marking scheme seems straight-forward enough, it gets very complicated when you through 'people' into the equation!

That's true of any pub though. Has the Nags Head won our branch Pub of the Year for the last five years because it's the (literal) local of some of the committee? I would say no, of course not - though we are looking at sensible ways to increase the gross amount of votes cast amongst the shortlisted five. But perhaps some people might well say it's a contributory factor.

I think I see where you're coming from now.

[Soup Dragon]

I think I see where you're coming from now.

Brilliant - can you let me know!

[Quinno]

Brilliant - can you let me know!

They don't make maps for that :p

[london calling]

That's true of any pub though. Has the Nags Head won our branch Pub of the Year for the last five years because it's the (literal) local of some of the committee? I would say no, of course not - though we are looking at sensible ways to increase the gross amount of votes cast amongst the shortlisted five. But perhaps some people might well say it's a contributory factor.

I think I see where you're coming from now.
five years in a row? Surely after 3 wins they should be left out for a year to give an incentive to other pubs. Local Camra pub status can give a boost to a pub and often leads to increased turnover and extra handpumps.

[london calling]

Without Wetherspoon pubs a lot of towns would have little beer choice. Although I rarely use them I am not surprised they have so many entries in the GBG.i have noticed in the past when I did use them that the beer quality and choice varies from one pub to the next.

[Quinno]

five years in a row? Surely after 3 wins they should be left out for a year to give an incentive to other pubs. Local Camra pub status can give a boost to a pub and often leads to increased turnover and extra handpumps.

The best is the best. We have a fundamental dislike of excluding a pub because it's 'too good' - it's the benchmark.

[Aqualung]

Without Wetherspoon pubs a lot of towns would have little beer choice. Although I rarely use them I am not surprised they have so many entries in the GBG.i have noticed in the past when I did use them that the beer quality and choice varies from one pub to the next.

To be honest, I think it also varies from week to week!

[Aqualung]

The best is the best. We have a fundamental dislike of excluding a pub because it's 'too good' - it's the benchmark.

I totally agree, however I have had an impression formed over many years that some pubs just get reselected year after year without any real justification. The Nag's Head is clearly a beer shrine, and if I had the funds for a jolly to Reading it would be my first priority.

[Aqualung]

After today's expedition I have to admit that I do have a lot of sympathy with the OP's point of view.
I visited five Spoons today, three of which are GBG listed and the only really completely acceptable pint was in a non-GBG one.

I have had a lot of indifferent Spoons pints recently, and I can only come up with three possible reasons:-

1) The beer isn't being allowed to settle until it is clear.

2) The beer lines aren't being given a proper clean often enough, or maybe I've been getting the first pint after the beer has been in the chilled lines overnight.

3) The cask has been delivered to the cellar after spending an excessive time in a hot place.

Before the anti-Spoons brigade start shouting "I told you so", I would like to point out that these problems are something that can potentially affect any pub.

I have no idea how Spoons get their deliveries nowadays, but the fact is if they are receiving casks that have been lying in hot sunshine, kept overnight in a hot lorry or just being left in sunshine awaiting shifting to the cellar then it will ruin the cask.

[Mobyduck]

Before the anti-Spoons brigade start shouting "I told you so", I would like to point out that these problems are something that can potentially affect any pub.

I would never stoop so low :evilgrin: :ninja:,
But in all seriousness it takes a pretty elite pub not to suffer these problems, i think even then they can but they have the wherewithall to deal with it immediatley and lose the problem, I dont put JDW in this bracket.

[Farway]

One nice touch with JDW is the option of a small,free, sample before you buy

I took advantage of this today, and saved £2.19, I forget the brew, but it was rank, so opted for alternative