Are all SE Regional Brewers a rip-off?

[Aqualung]

I've started this thread rather than clog up the BOTW thread.

In my opinion for Fuller's, Young's and McMullens the answer is a big Yes.

K&B, Ridley's and (effectively) Brakspear are no more. Is Badger (the interloper) a rip-off, and what about Shep's and Harvey's?


I hardly get around the country at all nowadays, but recall Holt's and Hook Norton being good value. Is that still the case? How about Taylor's? I would like to concentrate on the old regionals rather than the micros, although some of the micros are now effectively regional brewers.

[Mobyduck]

I've started this thread rather than clog up the BOTW thread.

In my opinion for Fuller's, Young's and McMullens the answer is a big Yes.

K&B, Ridley's and (effectively) Brakspear are no more. Is Badger (the interloper) a rip-off, and what about Shep's and Harvey's?


I hardly get around the country at all nowadays, but recall Holt's and Hook Norton being good value. Is that still the case? How about Taylor's? I would like to concentrate on the old regionals rather than the micros, although some of the micros are now effectively regional brewers.
I think in general to the first three the answer is yes,high prices for bland beer equals ripoff. I have never been a great fan of Fuller's beers London Porter aside, I've not tried the Wild River though from reports it sounds decent ,I don't mind paying the going rate for a good pint of the porter. All the rest mentioned I don't see as any different price wise ,depends on the pub your using.

[rpadam]

I've started this thread rather than clog up the BOTW thread.

In my opinion for Fuller's, Young's and McMullens the answer is a big Yes.

K&B, Ridley's and (effectively) Brakspear are no more. Is Badger (the interloper) a rip-off, and what about Shep's and Harvey's?


I hardly get around the country at all nowadays, but recall Holt's and Hook Norton being good value. Is that still the case? How about Taylor's? I would like to concentrate on the old regionals rather than the micros, although some of the micros are now effectively regional brewers.
Harveys can hardly be considered a regional brewer, as they only have 48 pubs (far fewer than Sheps, Hall & Woodhouse, Wadworth and Arkells). Even Palmers at Bridport have more. However, they do tend to be a bit cheaper than their larger counterparts, although the ubiquitous Sussex Best Bitter (aka 'Harveys' in all but their own outlets) can sell at any price in the free trade.
PS - Youngs is just a pubco these days, of course, so no longer a brewer (regional or otherwise).

[NickDavies]

I think in general to the first three the answer is yes,high prices for bland beer equals ripoff. I have never been a great fan of Fuller's beers London Porter aside, I've not tried the Wild River though from reports it sounds decent ,I don't mind paying the going rate for a good pint of the porter. All the rest mentioned I don't see as any different price wise ,depends on the pub your using.

As far as Fullers goes Pride is just phenomenally popular and commands a premium at the brewery gates let alone over the counter. Our pubco local has half a dozen usually routine Marstons/GK/Wells beers going fairly cheap, around £2.50, plus Pride at well over three quid and they sell a lot of it. Our nearest GBG pub has an exemplary local guest policy but also stocks Pride and sells more of that than anything else. And there are any number of so-so locals in the south east with a solitary handpump dispensing so-so Pride. It sells. Don't ask me why, I dislike the cat's piss overtones, but a lot of people like London Pride and drink it to the exclusion of any other cask beer and pay through the nose for it to boot.

[Mobyduck]

Don't ask me why, I dislike the cat's piss overtones, but a lot of people like London Pride and drink it to the exclusion of any other cask beer and pay through the nose for it to boot.
With Doombar,Greene King IPA and London Pride being the top three selling cask bitters in the country,just goes to show there's no accounting for taste.

[ROBCamra]

I hardly get around the country at all nowadays, but recall Holt's and Hook Norton being good value. Is that still the case? How about Taylor's? I would like to concentrate on the old regionals rather than the micros, although some of the micros are now effectively regional brewers.

Timmy Taylors are expensive, but then they always have been.

Holts always buck the trend by selling their beer at sensible prices to their tenants.

A pint of Holts Bitter in the Atherton Arms in Atherton was £1.94 a couple of weeks ago with the Mild a couple of pence cheaper.

You'll still only pay around £2.30 in central Manchester in a Holts tied house. :notworthy:

[Aqualung]

Harveys can hardly be considered a regional brewer, as they only have 48 pubs (far fewer than Sheps, Hall & Woodhouse, Wadworth and Arkells). Even Palmers at Bridport have more. However, they do tend to be a bit cheaper than their larger counterparts, although the ubiquitous Sussex Best Bitter (aka 'Harveys' in all but their own outlets) can sell at any price in the free trade.
PS - Youngs is just a pubco these days, of course, so no longer a brewer (regional or otherwise).

It's hard to think of Young's as a pub chain, but they obviously are. Apparently their Gorringe Park pub down in Tooting is now a Well's pub.

I don't think the number of pubs comes into whether a brewery is a "Regional". My definition is any brewer with a tied estate of more than one pub that existed in the early seventies, which I think would make Batham's the smallest.

[Farway]

With Doombar,Greene King IPA and London Pride being the top three selling cask bitters in the country,just goes to show there's no accounting for taste.

I think it's more about lack of choice rather than taste, without having to travel miles for another option

Choices may be fine in larger cities, but in a small town or village, one or two pubs, and all tied, lack of public transport, no train station etc, the only real choice is often a tied pub, and Doombar, or LP it is

Agree entirely about rip off, my local Fuller's [ex Gales] pub is £3.65 for Stowford Press cider, Weatherspoon's [walkable & on a my free bus pass route home] are £2.19. and even the local free house, in walking distance is "only" £3.40

[Bucking Fastard]

I've started this thread rather than clog up the BOTW thread.

In my opinion for Fuller's, Young's and McMullens the answer is a big Yes.



I live in Mc Mullens country ,and when I used lived in the middle of Hertford you certainly knew when they were brewing.It is a bit harsh to describe them as rip off merchants,but they do alter their pricing depending on the location of the pub and the theme of that particular tied house.In a down to earth boozer you can still buy a pint of AK for less than £3.However my problem with them is that they have failed to move with the times.AK is meant to be a light mild,but there is nothing distinctive about this beer these days,it just tastes dull.Their IPA is a shocker,and their seasonal brews,often palmed off under the Whole Hop Brewery name are instantly forgettable.Mc Mullens Country is palatable,their Cask is OK ,but on balance I feel they are just a very indifferent brewer.All personal opinion,mind.
Their estate of 130 freehold pubs in some highly desirable locations is the key driver for the family,this is where their wealth is tied up.Change of use can unlock a lot of value.Essentially they are a real estate company that happens to brew beer,Perhaps no surprise that it's not great.

[Aqualung]

I live in Mc Mullens country ,and when I used lived in the middle of Hertford you certainly knew when they were brewing.It is a bit harsh to describe them as rip off merchants,but they do alter their pricing depending on the location of the pub and the theme of that particular tied house.In a down to earth boozer you can still buy a pint of AK for less than £3.However my problem with them is that they have failed to move with the times.AK is meant to be a light mild,but there is nothing distinctive about this beer these days,it just tastes dull.Their IPA is a shocker,and their seasonal brews,often palmed off under the Whole Hop Brewery name are instantly forgettable.Mc Mullens Country is palatable,their Cask is OK ,but on balance I feel they are just a very indifferent brewer.All personal opinion,mind.
Their estate of 130 freehold pubs in some highly desirable locations is the key driver for the family,this is where their wealth is tied up.Change of use can unlock a lot of value.Essentially they are a real estate company that happens to brew beer,Perhaps no surprise that it's not great.

It's really interesting to hear the opinion of someone who knows their pubs better than I do. I would say that AK at £2.90 (or was it £2.99?) isn't strictly speaking a rip-off, but compared to other places local to me it is and I don't just mean Spoons!

My two favourite Mac's pubs from when I used to chase around on a bicycle were the Moletrap at Tawney Common (now a free house) and the Carpenter's Arms at Thornwood Common (now an Indian Restaurant).

The two Mac's pubs I know best are the Cricketers at Woodford and the Royal Oak on the edge of Chingford. I haven't been to either for the best part of 20 years, but I believe the Cricketers is much the same with a proper public bar and a miserable (allegedly) manager.

On the other hand, according to my mate who lives in Chingford the Royal Oak which had one of the best public bars I have ever been to is now some sort of "Beefeater" place with just one bar. I've been meaning to go and have a look, but it seems like such a waste of time and money.

I seem to recall that their seasonal ales in the 1990s could be quite interesting, usually something around the 5% mark and if there wasn't one they would stock a reasonable guest. I also recall their Stronghart just before Xmas being great value in that it was only slightly dearer than the usual suspects. I remember their Gladstone Bitter which was OK, but probably got dropped because it was a similar strength to Country.

I don't buy into the concept of a "light mild" any more than a "pale porter". It's either a low ABV bitter or a "boy's beer".

I can't help thinking that they may be stuck in a time-warp. They seem to have attempted to push their bottled AK into ASDA, but as far as I can see it wasn't a great success. I believe the family are minted, so as you say the value of their tied houses plus the Brewery site should stop them shedding too many tears if it all went pear shaped.

[london calling]

No I don't think Fullers are a rip-off. They sell at a price that is right for them. Okay not great beer but all their beers are decent with a few good un,s as well.They refused to sell to Wetherspoon until they got the price they wanted that's why it sells at a premium to others.

[Wittenden]

Brewers,wholesalers,pubcos and individual licencees will charge what the Market will stand, and produce what they can sell.Says a lot about the beer drinking public.

Pity about MacMullen's-I used to seek 'em out when I went that side of the River, or was that Rayments, who also did a mean AK.

[Aqualung]

No I don't think Fullers are a rip-off. They sell at a price that is right for them. Okay not great beer but all their beers are decent with a few good un,s as well.They refused to sell to Wetherspoon until they got the price they wanted that's why it sells at a premium to others.

So how come thelr idea of selling a beer at a price is "right for them" differs so much from one of their own pubs to what they sell their bottles to Tesco for?

I was always a big fan of ESB, but the last pint I had of it (and probably the last pint I will EVER have of it) was in the Drum a few weeks ago where it was £2.79. around 40p dearer than an equivalent guest. The only reason I tried it was because I thought it unlikely that I would ever see it at that price again. I thought it lacked the hop flavour that I remembered, but that may just be a result of me having tried too many hop bombs.

I seem to recall a dispute between Spoons and Guinness (now there is an undisputable rip-off brewery) where they said that Spoons were selling their rubbish too cheaply.

The concept of "the right price" is something made up by a marketing idiot. Capitalism will always dictate that whatever company is selling it's products, it will sell them at the highest possible price. Despite my left wing leanings I have no idea at all as to whether this is a valid assumption.

I do miss having the 12% Romanov Stout on cask in the William for £1.99 less than 18 months ago!

[Bucking Fastard]

I believe the family are minted, so as you say the value of their tied houses plus the Brewery site should stop them shedding too many tears if it all went pear shaped.

They certainly are wealthy,they also own a lot of retail space in Hertford nothing to do with their pubs.Most of the land around the brewery was sold to Sainsbury's who have put up a shiny supermarket,the tower brewery is now converted to a mix of flats and offices while brewing has shifted across the road to an industrial shed where the bottling line used to be.

I have to agree that Stronghart was a good Christmas brew,sadly no longer on cask.The AK recipe was altered in the 80's I believe,much for the worse .On the local real ale front,the popular pubs in the area are those that aren't tied to Mc Mullens,so that may explain why their beers have been popping up in free houses much further afield.They must have cut a deal with a distributor to shift production I guess.

[Quinno]

I live in Mc Mullens country ,and when I used lived in the middle of Hertford you certainly knew when they were brewing.It is a bit harsh to describe them as rip off merchants,but they do alter their pricing depending on the location of the pub and the theme of that particular tied house

As do Wetherspoons. The Pikey Platter price was always the indicator as to which 'band' the pub fell into (eg 2 for £6.99 in Windsor, 2 for £4.99 in Wakefield). I remember when the Aberystwyth Spoons first opened it was on the lowest pricing tier (that I had seen, then again I don't drink in Burnley) but it rapidly shifted upwards and is now just below premium.

At the end of the day, vote with your wallet...

[Soup Dragon]

The Old Joint Stock is a Fuller's pub in Brum - very expensive, but then a lot of pubs in that area are hiking-up their prices. Nip to a Holden's pub in Bloxwich and you get a far better pint (Holden's MILD) at £2.15 - i know which i prefer, but then the OJS is perhaps a slightly nicer interior:whistle:

[Aqualung]

The Pikey Platter


I've not heard that phrase before and it's so funny!

It doesn't provide a guide to the beer prices based on a random selection of their pubs that I've recently visited (it all seems to be £6.79) but I was alarmed to see that Yr Hen Orsaf in Aber was charging £8.79 for it.

Surely they are not charging more for the beer there than in North and East London?

[london calling]

[QUOTE=Aqualung;56126]So how come thelr idea of selling a beer at a price is "right for them" differs so much from one of their own pubs to what they sell their bottles to Tesco for?

I was always a big fan of ESB, but the last pint I had of it (and probably the last pint I will EVER have of it) was in the Drum a few weeks ago where it was £2.79. around 40p dearer than an equivalent guest. The only reason I tried it was because I thought it unlikely that I would ever see it at that price again. I thought it lacked the hop flavour that I remembered, but that may just be a result of me having tried too many hop bombs.

I seem to recall a dispute between Spoons and Guinness (now there is an undisputable rip-off brewery) where they said that Spoons were selling their rubbish too cheaply.

The concept of "the right price" is something made up by a marketing idiot. Capitalism will always dictate that whatever company is selling it's products, it will sell them at the highest possible price. Despite my left wing leanings I have no idea at all as to whether this is a valid assumption.

I do miss having the 12% Romanov Stout on cask in the William for £1.99 less than 18 months ago![/QUOT

Wetherspoons obviously use marketing men as they sell beer in Croydon at £1.95 but the same beer in Central London for £3.10.

[Aqualung]

Wetherspoons obviously use marketing men as they sell beer in Croydon at £1.95 but the same beer in Central London for £3.10.

You're right, Wetherspoons do have marketing idiots. The fact is that there is one simple principle of marketing, you charge a price for what you're selling that the punters will endure. This isn't something that requires a degree, you could get the idea from watching a single episode of The Apprentice.
That's why the rubbish pub companies are failing so badly, because they are overpriced and generally are not even selling a product that most of the people on this site at least would want to drink.