What is Craft Beer

[Al 10000]

This might sound like a silly question but after reading about new Craft bars opening and Craft beers being available in the more trendy pubs,i thought what is a Craft Beer and also a Craft Bar.

I always thought something that had Craft in the word was something home made or regarding beer beer that is brewed on a farm or in somebodys shed,well how wrong can i be having recently read about Anheuser-Busch brewing Craft beer,i thought this was the brewery that wanted to close a very old European brewery down because they did'nt like the name of their beer and i also though this was the largest brewery in the world so how can it brew Craft beer.

I would welcome any thoughts on this subject.

[Oggwyn Trench]

It does confuse me some what :confused: although thats not to hard these days :D

As far as i know Craft beer is either cask ale brewed on a small scale , or the newer and popular in the USA version , brewed as a real ale then carbonated and put in a keg .

I am sure there are people on here who know more about it .

Hopefully try some in a few weeks time as the Fighting Cocks is having some as part of the RAT festival .

[oldboots]

Somebody best summed craft beers up as "beers I like made by breweries I like".


Basically it means all things to all people or to paraphrase Lewis Carroll " it means exactly what I want it to mean". To me and many others it means precisely bugger all. I believe the term Craft Beer comes from the USA where it was coined to describe beer from brewers who make under a certain amount of beer a year (5 million hectoliters rings a bell), of course the definition was changed when one of the chosen brewers started making more than the limit. It is a favourite term with beer bloggers and trendy modern metrosexuals.

A craft bar is usually a place that sells cold, fizzy, beers; often cloudy but always expensive; from smaller breweries, it will pretend these beers are in some way "better" than mainstream keg beers because they've been made with dedication or integrity or I guess "lurve". The bar will have a dreary stripped out look, with bare floorboards and walls, probably involving furniture sourced from a skip, it may sell beer in thick, handled mugs to .... well you can guess the rest. It may sell cask beer from micro brewers as well. Some are now jumping on the pork pie band wagon, "craft pies" I expect.

Greene King uses the term "craft" in its publicity and one of the blogs had a picture of a beer menu from a bar listing Carling as a Craft Beer not long ago.

[Mobyduck]

http://www.craftbeer.com/pages/beer-studies/beer101-course

I don't think I'll be enrolling.

[Spinko]

It means good beer. The fact that some people think that Carling, John Smiths, Bud Light or Tetley's are good beer or that some people think carbonation means a bad beer is irrelevant.

It is brewed by innovative brewers who don't think we have to drink beer that our grandfathers drank. Usually with a nod to the best brewers in America and Belgium. It is not xenophobic.

Bars serving it are predominantly in the M62 belt or London.

Sometimes but not always it can be more expensive - this is caused by better ingredients, place or means of dispense, more suitable glassware, better educated and trained bar-staff, etc.

It does not run counter to Camra but is post-Camra. Some real ales are craft beer, some aren't, depending on if they are manufactured with care and innovation rather than just churned out.

Craft: Magic Rock, Brewdog, Marble, Hardknott, the Huddersfield Grove, Port St Beer House, North Bar, Euston Tap, Friends of Ham.

I know what craft means - that other people don't know or don't want to know, does not mean it has no meaning.

Brewers calling their own beer "craft" is irrelevant, just as people calling themselves liberal or progressive means nothing.

It's in the drinking!

[Mobyduck]

I recently enjoyed a few pints in the Craft Beer Co. (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/23311/) ,admittedly I stayed with the cask beers but good to see the range of beers available,a bit expensive depending on the ABV chosen but ok, a top pub in my view. Moved on to the The Old Red Cow (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/23382/) and decided to bite the bullet and go craft,a pint of Thornbridge Jaipur IPA in keg form,it was cold,a bit fizzy, it was also quite good,but bloody hell £5.50 a pint,not quite so enjoyable.Craft, its an interesting development in beer,but beware the craft sharks.

[oldboots]

It means good beer. The fact that some people think that Carling, John Smiths, Bud Light or Tetley's are good beer or that some people think carbonation means a bad beer is irrelevant.

It is brewed by innovative brewers who don't think we have to drink beer that our grandfathers drank. Usually with a nod to the best brewers in America and Belgium. It is not xenophobic.

Bars serving it are predominantly in the M62 belt or London.

Sometimes but not always it can be more expensive - this is caused by better ingredients, place or means of dispense, more suitable glassware, better educated and trained bar-staff, etc.

It does not run counter to Camra but is post-Camra. Some real ales are craft beer, some aren't, depending on if they are manufactured with care and innovation rather than just churned out.

Craft: Magic Rock, Brewdog, Marble, Hardknott, the Huddersfield Grove, Port St Beer House, North Bar, Euston Tap, Friends of Ham.

I know what craft means - that other people don't know or don't want to know, does not mean it has no meaning.

Brewers calling their own beer "craft" is irrelevant, just as people calling themselves liberal or progressive means nothing.

It's in the drinking!

The Hatter opened his eyes very wide on hearing this; but all he said was, "Why is a raven like a writing-desk?"
"Come, we shall have some fun now!" thought Alice. "I'm glad they've begun asking riddles. — I believe I can guess that," she added aloud.
"Do you mean that you think you can find out the answer to it?" said the March Hare.
"Exactly so," said Alice.
"Then you should say what you mean," the March Hare went on.
"I do," Alice hastily replied; "at least--at least I mean what I say--that's the same thing, you know."
"Not the same thing a bit!" said the Hatter. "You might just as well say that 'I see what I eat' is the same thing as 'I eat what I see'!"
"You might just as well say," added the March Hare, "that 'I like what I get' is the same thing as 'I get what I like'!"
"You might just as well say," added the Dormouse, who seemed to be talking in his sleep, "that 'I breathe when I sleep' is the same thing as 'I sleep when I breathe'!"
(Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, Chapter 7)

[Aqualung]

The "Craft" label has and is becoming even more trendy, so expect it to be hijacked by the global corporate abominations and the larger regional brewers.

As for keg, I don't know what The likes of the Craft pubs and Brewdog keg systems are, but the Brodie's HQ the King William in Leyton serves up to 11 of their beers on Keykeg, which I understand is the system so popular in America.

I've now tried several of these and I can state that they are most definitely not gassy. They are too cold, but if the weather is quite hot then I don't really mind that. Most of them are between 6-12% ABV so it's unlikely you're going to want to down it in one. Some of them do turn up cloudy, but I put that down to the chilling, especially if they have been brewed with any wheat. As for the price, they are £3.20 a pint served in an oversized goblet so you very rarely get a short pint. The handpumped beers are £2.35 a pint.

Sadly it seems that Hackney Red and Dalston Black are only going to be available in future on Keykeg, but I will still have my Friday afternoon treat starting on anything that catches my eye on the pumps and finishing with anything stronger that I like (Simcoe for Breakfast and Big Mofo Stout are favourites) on Keykeg.

I've heard about the prices in the likes of The Craft pubs and the Camden BrewDog and to be honest I just wouldn't go there.

[hondo]

Seems like I'm the only metrosexual in palookaville :cool:

[Strongers]

Keykeg:

http://www.aswiftone.com/2011/05/key-keg-mystery-unravelled.html?m=1

Be sure to read richardb's comments after the main piece as he clears up some inaccuracies.

[Andy Ven]

Craft beer - call it what you like but I ain't drinking stuff that has been tainted by chilli, chocolate or fruit.

Humbug :(

[Strongers]

Craft beer - call it what you like but I ain't drinking stuff that has been tainted by chilli, chocolate or fruit.

Humbug :(

I had a pint of craft beer last night.

Odds and Sods by the Bored Housewife Brewery. It had a velvety texture and a lavender aroma with a hint of copydex. It was ok but there was an overpowering aftertaste of used matchstick.

[Al 10000]

Well having read all of these replys i am firmly in OldBoots camp.

I am not willing to pay £5 for a pint of fizz and also buy a Pork Pie for another Fiver,i noticed on another thread about a new Craft bar opening in Brixton guess what food they are doing yes you all guessed right Pork Pies and Scotch Eggs no doubt with it being down south they will be even more expensive than the ones on sale in Brewdog Nottingham.
So if you are lucky when you visit the new craft bar in Brixton you might get a bit of change out of £15 quid for a pint and a Pork pie.

Ill stick to a Spoons for a fry up and a pint for less than a fiver.

[hondo]

"craft-like beers by large, non-craft breweries"
http://www.brewersassociation.org/pages/media/press-releases/show?title=craft-vs-crafty-a-statement-from-the-brewers-association

http://blogs.denverpost.com/beer/2012/12/16/man-craft-beer/7420/

[oldboots]

I thought I might give this subject a bit of a whisk.....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2013/jun/13/craft-beer-guide-beginners


:D

[sheffield hatter]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2013/jun/13/craft-beer-guide-beginners


"like sucking on a handful of rusty nails and paracetamol that still taste of beer" - the perfect description of the freezing cold half of Dead Pony Club I nearly drank at BrewDog (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/76258/) in Nottingham recently.

[Aqualung]

I can only speak of my own experience of "Craft" beer which is the keykeg options in the Leyton William IV.

Firstly, the term "Craft" beer has now become completely meaningless as it is totally subjective.
I would describe Brodie's Big Mofo Stout or Dalston Black IPA as probably Craft beers, but a Camden Town lager as definitely not.
Generally it seems to be used as an excuse to ramp up the price of the product.

Secondly it doesn't have to be expensive. In the William the keykeg options are £3.30 a pint which is 80p more than the cask and 70p more than the cask guests. If the beer in question is the 10.5% Big Mofo Stout or the 7.0% Dalston Black then even for a right old skinflint like me I'm reasonably happy.

Thirdly it doesn't HAVE to be gassy. One of the problems with keykeg is that is is possible to gas it up and you won't know until you try it. Some of the keykeg products I have tried have come up gassy like a proper keg or a bottle. I never bother with them a second time.

Fourthly keykeg is COLD. This can be a bonus in really hot weather (anyone remember what that is like?). I tried a new 5.2% APA today which has actually been brewed for bottling. It just didn't work for me as the chilling made it tasteless and thin. To me the ones that work are the strong dark ones. I've had Dalston Black on both methods of dispense in the last six months and to be honest I prefer the keykeg.

[london calling]

Saw a craft beer in the Craft beer co Brixton last night
Siren/Pizza Port collab called Big Inflatable Cowboy Hat 10.5
the reason I knew it was craft beer ? easy £9.90 a pint.

[Mobyduck]

Saw a craft beer in the Craft beer co Brixton last night
Siren/Pizza Port collab called Big Inflatable Cowboy Hat 10.5
the reason I knew it was craft beer ? easy £9.90 a pint.
I guess you didnt have any then, absoloutly ridiculous price.

[Wittenden]

Over priced, over cold, over fizzy, over here -HOP SOUP!

[gillhalfpint]

I will likely be trying one or two key-keg beers at the Hand in Falmouth today. They have a stillage of cask beers set up, but they have Magic Rock key-kegs including Curious OZ (I think it was the Curious one he had the little round clip for) and High Wire. Should be a good day. Looking forward to Cask Five Points beer they have on. New brewery for me. Another from London E8.

[Aqualung]

I will likely be trying one or two key-keg beers at the Hand in Falmouth today. They have a stillage of cask beers set up, but they have Magic Rock key-kegs including Curious OZ (I think it was the Curious one he had the little round clip for) and High Wire. Should be a good day. Looking forward to Cask Five Points beer they have on. New brewery for me. Another from London E8.

I've tried both of those Magic Rock beers on cask and to be honest I can't imagine how keykeg dispense would suit them at all.

If there's a 6% Five Points Red beer there I can recommend it!

[london calling]

I guess you didnt have any then, absoloutly ridiculous price.

You guessed right Moby.It was specially brewed for them 59 firkins of it so don't rush to get it. It may be around for a while.

[Mobyduck]

Saw a craft beer in the Craft beer co Brixton last night
Siren/Pizza Port collab called Big Inflatable Cowboy Hat 10.5
the reason I knew it was craft beer ? easy £9.90 a pint.


You guessed right Moby.It was specially brewed for them 59 firkins of it so don't rush to get it. It may be around for a while.
In town tomorrow starting at The William the 1V then down to Hackney and maybe tempted at some point to try some craft offerings , but not at that price or anywhere near.

[Aqualung]

In town tomorrow starting at The William the 1V then down to Hackney and maybe tempted at some point to try some craft offerings , but not at that price or anywhere near.

Good luck with the William tomorrow Moby! Have a pint of Big Mofo Stout for me. There is supposed to be a CASK version of Hoxton Special IPA (6.6%) this weekend.

The cask selection on Thursday was fairly limited for me but there were the lower ABV ones (I remember seeing Mild. London Fields, Citra and Shoreditch Sunshine). The Drum had the London Fields Black Path Porter (4.2%) but it may well have all gone by Saturday.

[Mobyduck]

Good luck with the William tomorrow Moby! Have a pint of Big Mofo Stout for me. There is supposed to be a CASK version of Hoxton Special IPA (6.6%) this weekend.

The cask selection on Thursday was fairly limited for me but there were the lower ABV ones (I remember seeing Mild. London Fields, Citra and Shoreditch Sunshine). The Drum had the London Fields Black Path Porter (4.2%) but it may well have all gone by Saturday.
Cheers Aqualung , will look out for the above but will probably steer clear of the bigger hitting ABV's at that time of the day, although may have a sneaky half if something really catches the eye. :drinkup:Iwill let you know how I got on.

[Mobyduck]

Cheers Aqualung , will look out for the above but will probably steer clear of the bigger hitting ABV's at that time of the day, although may have a sneaky half if something really catches the eye. :drinkup:Iwill let you know how I got on.
I shall summarise my day where it should be on th pub crawl thread part of my experience today is relevant here . Didnt have as much time in the King William 1V as hoped so restricted to just one pint here, I was after trying some Big Mofo Stout ,egged on by Aqualung :D ,not that I need egging on ,but unfortunatley this didnt happen.So when I spotted it later in the day in the Cock tavern I thought my luck was in , just a half was required so I requested such ,and fair play to the barman he said " do you want to pay £3.90 for a half ", to which I replied the obvious , hence I have still not tasted it. Bearing in mind a full pint in the William 1V would have cost me something in the region of £3.40 (correct me if I'm wrong here Aqualung) , It seems the great craft beer rip off is going strong.

[Aqualung]

I shall summarise my day where it should be on th pub crawl thread part of my experience today is relevant here . Didnt have as much time in the King William 1V as hoped so restricted to just one pint here, I was after trying some Big Mofo Stout ,egged on by Aqualung :D ,not that I need egging on ,but unfortunatley this didnt happen.So when I spotted it later in the day in the Cock tavern I thought my luck was in , just a half was required so I requested such ,and fair play to the barman he said " do you want to pay £3.90 for a half ", to which I replied the obvious , hence I have still not tasted it. Bearing in mind a full pint in the William 1V would have cost me something in the region of £3.40 (correct me if I'm wrong here Aqualung) , It seems the great craft beer rip off is going strong.

As I noted in the other thread, when I got to the William in the evening there was Citra For Breakfast (10.1%) and whisky barrel aged Romanov Stout (12.1%). The blanket price for the keykeg is currently £3.30 a pint, but they are thinking of pricing the ones over 9% (I think it was) at £4.50, which probably means it will happen.
Given that the excise duty and VAT comes to over two quid for a pint of Romanov, it's not really surprising. I wouldn't pay over a fiver for any pint apart from possibly the Brodie's Elizabethan (22%) but I would have to be in a very strange frame of mind indeed to think that I would actually enjoy drinking a pint of that stuff!

I was interested to see the question posed in a recent review of the Old Coffee House as to whether the keykeg options were significantly affecting the throughput and hence quality of the cask ales. I can't speak for the Old Coffee House, but the William has fewer casks than it used to. However, there is usually a reasonable choice especially at the weekend and there is a new bloke doing some strerling work in the cellar. Some casks come up much better than others, the Old Strret Pale last night was outstanding, but it's not one for the Brown Bitter Brigade.

[Al 10000]

I was drinking proper beer yesterday in Shropshire from Joules,Salopian and Marstons and not one was more that £3.00 for a pint and many were at the £2.50 a pint mark.

If idiots want to drink key Keg or any other Craft beers at £6.00 up to £9.00 a pint then they are fools to themselves.

I would also like to know how a beer can come in at 22% or even 10% these can not be proper beers the ABV is far too high for them to be a beer,i thought Barley Wines started at about 10% and normal beers ranged from 3.5 up to 5.00 %.

But then again i am no beer expert i have only been drinking since 1978 and these modern trendy types probably know more than i ever will about beer :rolleyes:

[Aqualung]

I would also like to know how a beer can come in at 22% or even 10% these can not be proper beers the ABV is far too high for them to be a beer,i thought Barley Wines started at about 10% and normal beers ranged from 3.5 up to 5.00 %.

The 22% one is brewed with a special yeast and usually only appears at one of the two annual beer festivals. It is sold in third of a pint glasses and is more like a sweet sherry than a beer, although this years one was whisky barrel aged which made the sweetness a bit more palatable.

As for the 12% stout it was served on cask at the Easter William IV festival for £2.50 a pint. Did you never come across Courage Imperial Russian Stout? It's not too different from that bottled beer from back in the day.



But then again i am no beer expert i have only been drinking since 1978 and these modern trendy types probably know more than i ever will about beer :rolleyes:

How flattering to be thought of as a "modern trendy type"!! The reaction is usually "Oh no! Not that miserable old git again".

I first discovered Real Ale some time around 1973, before that I had only seen keg and all I knew was that Tartan and McEwans were absolutely disgusting. We discovered Young's initially soon followed by Brakspear, Ruddles, Fuller's and unbeknown at the time Jennings on a Lake District trip.

One of the first real ales I ever tried was the 7.5% Owd Roger in the Royal Standard of England at Forty Green!

[london calling]

I was drinking proper beer yesterday in Shropshire from Joules,Salopian and Marstons and not one was more that £3.00 for a pint and many were at the £2.50 a pint mark.

If idiots want to drink key Keg or any other Craft beers at £6.00 up to £9.00 a pint then they are fools to themselves.

I would also like to know how a beer can come in at 22% or even 10% these can not be proper beers the ABV is far too high for them to be a beer,i thought Barley Wines started at about 10% and normal beers ranged from 3.5 up to 5.00 %.

But then again i am no beer expert i have only been drinking since 1978 and these modern trendy types probably know more than i ever will about beer :rolleyes:

If only we in London could get beer for £2.50-3.00 a pint.The Earl of Essex has on today Hobsons mild 3.2 at £3.90 a pint for 60 p more you can get Keg Beavertown -gamma ray ipa 5.4 at £4.50 a pint.Def worth the extra imo.

[gillhalfpint]

I had Beavertown Gamma Ray APA 5.4% Keg for £2 a half at the Hand in Falmouth on Friday.

[london calling]

I had Beavertown Gamma Ray APA 5.4% Keg for £2 a half at the Hand in Falmouth on Friday.

Well Gill it did have to travel 3 miles from the brewery to the Earl of Essex probably by Taxi. cheers

[Aqualung]

If only we in London could get beer for £2.50-3.00 a pint.The Earl of Essex has on today Hobsons mild 3.2 at £3.90 a pint for 60 p more you can get Keg Beavertown -gamma ray ipa 5.4 at £4.50 a pint.Def worth the extra imo.

I do know that you realise that you can get beer for £2.50-£3.00 (or less) in probably all the Spoons outside of the Central London area as well as the King William IV in Leyton (and I'm sure a few others). The reality of this particular discussion is that it simply boils down to straightforward Capitalism in that any pub (including Spoons) will charge what they think will not drive the punters away.

To me £3.90 for a proper low ABV mild is just taking the Michael, but it's in trendy N1. One thing about these New Wave pubs in areas like N1, E5 and E8 is that they were all total dumps twenty or thirty years ago with little custom and rubbish beer.

I'm sure I played darts in the now Islington Craft Beer Co pub in the 1980's and it was so awful that bottles of Newcastle Brown was the best option.

[london calling]

Aqualung is right you can get cheap beer in Mc Spoons but you have got to like their style of pub and I don't.I am going up London on wed night Cock tav-fox e8-dukes brew and que -well and bucket e2- then the new Pelt Trader after that either Holborn or the Borough.All will have Craft beers all will be expensive but they all have a choice of cheaper cask beer. Choice is a great thing

[hondo]

Aqualung is right you can get cheap beer in Mc Spoons but you have got to like their style of pub and I don't.I am going up London on wed night Cock tav-fox e8-dukes brew and que -well and bucket e2- then the new Pelt Trader after that either Holborn or the Borough.All will have Craft beers all will be expensive but they all have a choice of cheaper cask beer. Choice is a great thing

jealous :bemerry:

[aleandhearty]

Over priced, over cold, over fizzy....

I'm trying to keep an open mind regarding the whole craft beer thing. I certainly don't ally myself with the foaming at the mouth, rabid CAMRA diehards who suggest that all non-cask beer comes straight from Satan's penis. However, on limited tastings, Wittenden's definition still works for me. On Sunday afternoon I drank my BOTW, Fernandes Octohop, alongside Rat Crazy Rat. The former an aromatic, hoppy cask ale, with bags of flavour for 4% and around £2.80 a pint. By comparison, the Crazy Rat 6% was served from the keg and cost £4.00 a pint. It had virtually no aroma, was muted in taste, but worst of all burnt the back of the throat with its harsh carbonation. Just not convincing.

[gillhalfpint]

I want to be fair on the new keg ales. They said the Beavertown I had was key keg and as such, no gas had touched the beer. Fair enough, but it was so cold. I couldn't get the flavour till I was half way down it, and I can't see why it has to cost so much either. I will have one now and then I suppose if there is nothing I fancy in cask, but I can only tot up 3 in the past 12 months, so it will be a very now and then drink.

As a matter of interest, are they all key keg these days, or if not, how do you tell keg from key keg? The fonts all look the same to me.

[london calling]

I want to be fair on the new keg ales. They said the Beavertown I had was key keg and as such, no gas had touched the beer. Fair enough, but it was so cold. I couldn't get the flavour till I was half way down it, and I can't see why it has to cost so much either. I will have one now and then I suppose if there is nothing I fancy in cask, but I can only tot up 3 in the past 12 months, so it will be a very now and then drink.

As a matter of interest, are they all key keg these days, or if not, how do you tell keg from key keg? The fonts all look the same to me.
You wont be able to tell if its keg or key keg as it will taste the same but maybe a bit gassier on normal keg. The advantage of key keg is its only 30 litres so less to sell and the keg is disposable so the breweries don't have to chase around to get them back. If the beer was too cold then that's the pubs fault as they set the temperature .It should add about 25p a pint on to the cost(ha ha).I would think if the beer is going local it makes sense for it to be keg and keykeg for afar.

[london calling]

I had 3 keg beers last night
alpha state -cironvand perfect carbonation and temp(hard to tell the diff from real ale)
beavertown -apricot ale too fizzy and too cold
beavertown -rypa -perfect carb and temp
both beavertown beers from the same pub so its a bit hit and miss.

[Aqualung]

As a matter of interest, are they all key keg these days, or if not, how do you tell keg from key keg? The fonts all look the same to me.

This is one of the big problems in that you just cannot tell! I've had ones in the William that come up gassy like a proper keg or bottled beer and it's simple for me in that I never bother with that brew again.

I usually go for the strong darker ones (7%+) so there's never a problem with the taste. I've noticed that the chilling does tend to generate a haze on the pale ones which is off putting. One of the speciality Brodie's keykeg offerings is low ABV (3.7%) fruit flavoured sour beers, and I have to be honest I haven't tried any of them.

If as expected the high octane ones go up to £4.50 then I will be sticking to the Cask and the Dalston Black. Given that I only know of two other regulars who drink the 10%+ stuff, I wonder if it will have a future other than for visitors and beer tourists that book rooms at the pub.

[Mobyduck]

I think now "Craft" has become just a "buzz word" in many cases confirmed when walking past Bonapartes (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/68740/) on my way to the Harp (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/53779/) last Saturday morning, I cant remember the exact wording but they seemed to be suggesting Kronenburg 1664 is a craft beer, not in my book, I too have an open mind about craft beer but will draw the line at blatant ripoff profiteering. As a side note, the landlord of my local had a visit from the rep of Portabello Brewing Company (http://www.perfectpint.co.uk/real-beer-breweries/1545/Portobello-Brewing-Company), I have become a fan of their Portabello Pale and recently their Market Porter. He left a bottle of Portabello Craft Pilsner, I had a taste and ,yes its chilled ,fizzy and Lager ,but it was nice ,It had taste and loads of hops with a dry finish ,I would have no problem drinking a bottle on a warm day, it would depend though on whether it was a silly price or not.

[london calling]

This is one of the big problems in that you just cannot tell! I've had ones in the William that come up gassy like a proper keg or bottled beer and it's simple for me in that I never bother with that brew again.

I usually go for the strong darker ones (7%+) so there's never a problem with the taste. I've noticed that the chilling does tend to generate a haze on the pale ones which is off putting. One of the speciality Brodie's keykeg offerings is low ABV (3.7%) fruit flavoured sour beers, and I have to be honest I haven't tried any of them.

If as expected the high octane ones go up to £4.50 then I will be sticking to the Cask and the Dalston Black. Given that I only know of two other regulars who drink the 10%+ stuff, I wonder if it will have a future other than for visitors and beer tourists that book rooms at the pub.

I had a Brodies -London Sour 2.5.on keg at the Cock tav.I am not sure it can be described as a beer.?

[Aqualung]

I think now "Craft" has become just a "buzz word" in many cases confirmed when walking past Bonapartes (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/68740/) on my way to the Harp (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/53779/) last Saturday morning, I cant remember the exact wording but they seemed to be suggesting Kronenburg 1664 is a craft beer, not in my book, I too have an open mind about craft beer but will draw the line at blatant ripoff profiteering. As a side note, the landlord of my local had a visit from the rep of Portabello Brewing Company (http://www.perfectpint.co.uk/real-beer-breweries/1545/Portobello-Brewing-Company), I have become a fan of their Portabello Pale and recently their Market Porter. He left a bottle of Portabello Craft Pilsner, I had a taste and ,yes its chilled ,fizzy and Lager ,but it was nice ,It had taste and loads of hops with a dry finish ,I would have no problem drinking a bottle on a warm day, it would depend though on whether it was a silly price or not.

A very sensible and well put post there Moby. I'm sure if you stumble across the Portobello American Pale Ale you will find it to your liking.

Today in the William they had the Hoxton Special IPA on cask, one of the three regular keykegs (along with Hackney Red and Dalston Black). It was superb on cask and I'm going to pester James to do a permanent cask version until he finally succombes.

[Wittenden]

I'm trying to keep an open mind regarding the whole craft beer thing. I certainly don't ally myself with the foaming at the mouth, rabid CAMRA diehards who suggest that all non-cask beer comes straight from Satan's penis. However, on limited tastings, Wittenden's definition still works for me. On Sunday afternoon I drank my BOTW, Fernandes Octohop, alongside Rat Crazy Rat. The former an aromatic, hoppy cask ale, with bags of flavour for 4% and around £2.80 a pint. By comparison, the Crazy Rat 6% was served from the keg and cost £4.00 a pint. It had virtually no aroma, was muted in taste, but worst of all burnt the back of the throat with its harsh carbonation. Just not convincing.
I admit to being somewhat tongue in cheek, if not jaded , when I made my original comments. Craft keg is fairly unusual in the pubs that I frequent, and if there is a choice between a decent brown bitter or a good dark 'un and a CK I'd definately go with the cask. Sometimes that would be the wrong decision, but on the whole I enjoy real ale: I actively dislike excessive carbonation-that's why I steer away from non RAIB bottled beers- and I certainly dislike spending over the odds for a beer that at best would be "OK". I'd try a CK (if someone else was paying!), but beer is too expensive, and pub visits too precious, to waste.

[Aqualung]

I had a Brodies -London Sour 2.5.on keg at the Cock tav.I am not sure it can be described as a beer.?

I didn't realise there was a low ABV version of it, it's regularily on sale in the William but is around 3.7%. Personally I never bother with any of the sours.

Is it a beer? Perhaps this description from RateBeer may help decide "it has an aroma of barnyard, wet dog and sharp fruits". Nice!!!!

[oldboots]

I cant remember the exact wording but they seemed to be suggesting Kronenburg 1664 is a craft beer, not in my book .....

But Greene King is "hand-crafted" as well, they told us so themselves, :evilgrin:

[Mobyduck]

But Greene King is "hand-crafted" as well, they told us so themselves, :evilgrin:
And there goes another flying pig.:D

[NickDavies]

I think now "Craft" has become just a "buzz word" in many cases confirmed when walking past Bonapartes (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/68740/) on my way to the Harp (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/53779/) last Saturday morning, I cant remember the exact wording but they seemed to be suggesting Kronenburg 1664 is a craft beer, .

While waiting for my takeaway the other night I looked through a copy of Tandoori - a curry house trade mag. There was a routine piece about maximising beer sales which was peppered with "craft beer", "crafted for Indian food" and so on. This is Cobra and Kingfisher they're talking about. Your average punter has a good idea of what real ale is, the handpump is a big clue and no-one is going to get a way with badging anything else as such. But your average punter won't have much idea what "craft" means, beyond possibly being a synonym for "dear". The more naive might see it as an indicator of quality, which is what the corporates what to happen. We're reaching the stage where the genuine artisan producers will see no advantage in describing their products as craft and have to come up with some other term.

[Bucking Fastard]

Had a lengthy session in Craft Beer Central AKA The Euston Tap last night and they now quite correctly label their "craft beers" as Keg on the blackboard .What struck me was the pricing ,keg beers often advertised by the half resulting in Stone IPA 6.9% being knocked out at £9 per pint. Worse still was Kernel Table Beer 2.8% at £4.40 pp.

I stuck with the cask

[Oggwyn Trench]

The Old Fighting Cocks (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/68336/) has now got a dedicated key keg font , its a tall silver thing that sets it apart from the Handpulls and the normal fizzy keg taps , its usually around the £3.60/80 mark for a pint but last night they had an American beer on , Flying Dog - Doggie Style 5.5% at £4.80 a pint which for round here is scandalous:eek: especially when just along the bar is the decent Ironbridge Gold at £2.50 a pint and Ironbridge Blonde at £2.30 , even the stronger guests ales including the 6/7% rarely get above £3 a pint which to me says only one thing , key keg is a rip off .

[london calling]

Had a lengthy session in Craft Beer Central AKA The Euston Tap last night and they now quite correctly label their "craft beers" as Keg on the blackboard .What struck me was the pricing ,keg beers often advertised by the half resulting in Stone IPA 6.9% being knocked out at £9 per pint. Worse still was Kernel Table Beer 2.8% at £4.40 pp.

I stuck with the cask

The Euston tap is actually the cheapest of the London craft beer pubs.You missed a bargain last night as they had Lagunitas ipa 6.8 at only £5 a pint.The White horse American beer fest has it on next week and I would imagine it will be £9 A PINT.

[Aqualung]

The Old Fighting Cocks (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/68336/) has now got a dedicated key keg font , its a tall silver thing that sets it apart from the Handpulls and the normal fizzy keg taps , its usually around the £3.60/80 mark for a pint but last night they had an American beer on , Flying Dog - Doggie Style 5.5% at £4.80 a pint which for round here is scandalous:eek: especially when just along the bar is the decent Ironbridge Gold at £2.50 a pint and Ironbridge Blonde at £2.30 , even the stronger guests ales including the 6/7% rarely get above £3 a pint which to me says only one thing , key keg is a rip off .

Keykeg beer doesn't have to be a rip-off. If this is a genuine American import then carting it across the pond will whack the price up.

I could have had a pint of Brodie's Big Mofo Stout (10.5%) in Soho on Friday for £4.80 but refrained (it was 11:00).

Some of the stronger Magic Rock brews work OK on keykeg so I wonder what they would cost. I think they were £4.50 in the William IV tap takeover last year. That's not too bad if it's over 7% abv.

The fact is that a local micro that has a good relationship with the pub is always going to provide a good relatively cheap pint.

In my opinion keykeg is OK if it's strong, not gassed up and well under a fiver a pint.

[Brewguru]

This is a pic of Marstons trying to grab hold of the "craft" ticket to push sales with their rebranding of Ringwood.

896

Reduced the ABV as well. The general feeling around these parts is that certainly Ringwood Best is not what it used to be...

[Aqualung]

This is a pic of Marstons trying to grab hold of the "craft" ticket to push sales with their rebranding of Ringwood.

896

Reduced the ABV as well. The general feeling around these parts is that certainly Ringwood Best is not what it used to be...

That is a complete disgrace, it's still listed on their website and the latest Spoons list as 5.6%. No doubt they will claim that it is after testing public opinion (how come they never ask me? I would tell them to up it to 6.5%.).

I bet the real reason other than the duty saving is that it's a similar strength to Old Empire, well so what they are completely different beers.

I can't comment on the Best as I haven't tried it in years.

I notice that since Lees reduced Brewer's Dark and Moonraker a year or so back that Morrison's no longer stock them.

[oldboots]

That is a complete disgrace, it's still listed on their website and the latest Spoons list as 5.6%. No doubt they will claim that it is after testing public opinion (how come they never ask me? I would tell them to up it to 6.5%.).

Apparently it is to make it "more accessible" and they do mention "feedback"............no it's so the bar-stewards can pocket the duty difference.




I can't comment on the Best as I haven't tried it in years.

Hasn't been the same since Peter Austin left if you ask me.

They have also changed the tag line "from the Heart of the New Forest" to "Visit the Winding Downs" Ringwood is nowhere near the fecking Downs, it is fairly close to Lyndhurst which is the heart of the New Forest. At least they haven't shut the brewery and shunted production off to Burton or Wolverhampton...............yet.

[Mobyduck]

This is a pic of Marstons trying to grab hold of the "craft" ticket to push sales with their rebranding of Ringwood.

896

Reduced the ABV as well. The general feeling around these parts is that certainly Ringwood Best is not what it used to be...


That is a complete disgrace, it's still listed on their website and the latest Spoons list as 5.6%. No doubt they will claim that it is after testing public opinion (how come they never ask me? I would tell them to up it to 6.5%.).

I bet the real reason other than the duty saving is that it's a similar strength to Old Empire, well so what they are completely different beers.

I can't comment on the Best as I haven't tried it in years.

I notice that since Lees reduced Brewer's Dark and Moonraker a year or so back that Morrison's no longer stock them.
I agree ,a total disgrace , Old Thumper is a classic of it's style, not so much my style nowadays , but I have fond memories from back in the day. I never really thought the best was anything special ,but now its worse, its a boring brown beer ranking alongside the likes of Doombar, Greenking IPA ,Courage Best and many others, its been blandomised, if thats a word?

[london calling]

I agree ,a total disgrace , Old Thumper is a classic of it's style, not so much my style nowadays , but I have fond memories from back in the day. I never really thought the best was anything special ,but now its worse, its a boring brown beer ranking alongside the likes of Doombar, Greenking IPA ,Courage Best and many others, its been blandomised, if thats a word?

Its probably not a word but its a great new addition to the English language. nice one.

[Aqualung]

They have also changed the tag line "from the Heart of the New Forest" to "Visit the Winding Downs" Ringwood is nowhere near the fecking Downs, it is fairly close to Lyndhurst which is the heart of the New Forest. At least they haven't shut the brewery and shunted production off to Burton or Wolverhampton...............yet.

This new tag was obviously dreamed up by some marketing moron in Burton who knows as much about Southern England geography as I do about Smartphones, QR Codes and celebrity gossip. Well done OldBoots, you know a lot more about Southern England than I do about Yorkshire, although I probably know more than your average southerner who would struggle to tell you which County (Riding) Leeds, Sheffield and York are in!

[gillhalfpint]

I loved Old Thumper, and would go for it in any pub I saw it served up. What a shame. I hate these tactics of spoiling a great beer.

[oldboots]

although I probably know more than your average southerner who would struggle to tell you which County (Riding) Leeds, Sheffield and York are in!

respectively West (West Riding) South (West Riding) and don't ask it's complicated; the pain of 1974 is still felt hereabouts.

[Quinno]

Roll up, roll up, only £7 a pint!*

http://www.londoncraftbeerfestival.co.uk/tickets/

* - I am being a little disingenuous but still...

[oldboots]

Roll up, roll up, only £7 a pint!*

http://www.londoncraftbeerfestival.co.uk/tickets/

* - I am being a little disingenuous but still...

I'm not sure you are, if I read it right you get about 5 pints for your £35, 35/5 = £7 per pint; BUT 150ml isn't a third of a pint, 190ml is a third of a pint; so who's being a little disingenuous? Actually if all the brewers turn up it's 21 brewers X 150 ml or about 5 1/2 pints which is "only" £6.36 a pint. Or is it 20 brewers X 150ml (£6.63 a pint), it depends which bit of the website you read.

No doubt these people with designer spec's, sculpted facial hair and funny hats can't "do the math" Oh and as with most "craft" beer places the measures will be woefully short so you might get 130ml on a good day. Incidentally you can't legally sell beer in measures other than 1/3 pint, 1/2 pint or multiples thereof unless it's out of a bottle.


KINELL, :eek:

[london calling]

I'm not sure you are, if I read it right you get about 5 pints for your £35, 35/5 = £7 per pint; BUT 150ml isn't a third of a pint, 190ml is a third of a pint; so who's being a little disingenuous? Actually if all the brewers turn up it's 21 brewers X 150 ml or about 5 1/2 pints which is "only" £6.36 a pint. Or is it 20 brewers X 150ml (£6.63 a pint), it depends which bit of the website you read.

No doubt these people with designer spec's, sculpted facial hair and funny hats can't "do the math" Oh and as with most "craft" beer places the measures will be woefully short so you might get 130ml on a good day. Incidentally you can't legally sell beer in measures other than 1/3 pint, 1/2 pint or multiples thereof unless it's out of a bottle.


KINELL, :eek:

At that size of measure it will probably be plastic glasses as well .Not the best thing way to taste AWESOME beer.

[london calling]

Roll up, roll up, only £7 a pint!*

http://www.londoncraftbeerfestival.co.uk/tickets/

* - I am being a little disingenuous but still...

still its cheaper than the White Horse American fest today
cask Sierra Nevada -hoptimum imperial ipa 10.4- £10 a pint or
the dearest mild I have seen
keg Anchor brewing -marks mild 4.0 -£9 a pint

[NickDavies]

At that size of measure it will probably be plastic glasses as well .Not the best thing way to taste AWESOME beer.

"with stunning views over a decommissioned victorian gasworks" ..... oh dear.

[Aqualung]

No doubt these people with designer spec's, sculpted facial hair and funny hats

Have you been spying on me??????

[trainman]

still its cheaper than the White Horse American fest today
cask Sierra Nevada -hoptimum imperial ipa 10.4- £10 a pint or
the dearest mild I have seen
keg Anchor brewing -marks mild 4.0 -£9 a pint
After somehow missing this since its inception I intended to go Thurs but (a friend's) trains meant a re-think.
Was there anything in the 5-7% Hopmonster bracket for £4/£5/£6? that's kinda what I would've been looking for.

[gillhalfpint]

We went to an American beer fest at the Hand in Falmouth on Thursday and had 4 halves for £9.20.
Brooklyn Summer.
Ska Special Ale.
Anchor Summer Ale.
Ska Modus Hoperandi.

The fest is running till 14th July, and we will be having another couple of visits there as there are around 15 more to come on including from Sierra Nevada, Stone, more from Anchor, and Flying Dog.

[london calling]

After somehow missing this since its inception I intended to go Thurs but (a friend's) trains meant a re-think.
Was there anything in the 5-7% Hopmonster bracket for £4/£5/£6? that's kinda what I would've been looking for.

There are some at that strength but they start at £7 a pint.
easy ipa 4.2 £7.30
doggie style 5.5 £7.50
hop ottin ipa 7.00 £9.25
you get the idea.
I will bring the beer list to Reading so we can have a laugh at the prices.

[london calling]

There are some at that strength but they start at £7 a pint.
easy ipa 4.2 £7.30
doggie style 5.5 £7.50
hop ottin ipa 7.00 £9.25
you get the idea.
I will bring the beer list to Reading so we can have a laugh at the prices.

Actually this year they did do 1/3 pints which pro-rata made it even more expensive but its a cheaper way of trying the beers

[Al 10000]

There are some at that strength but they start at £7 a pint.
easy ipa 4.2 £7.30
doggie style 5.5 £7.50
hop ottin ipa 7.00 £9.25
you get the idea.
I will bring the beer list to Reading so we can have a laugh at the prices.

I hope all of these Craft brewers go to the wall,they are ripping everbody off with these prices.

I had a half of Imperial bitter yesterday in the Imperial Club and brewery in Mexborough and it was only 78p for a half,and i could see where the beer was being brewed while i had my drink.
I spent less than £30 pounds on beer yesterday and that was drinking 22 half pints of bitter.

[Aqualung]

I hope all of these Craft brewers go to the wall,they are ripping everbody off with these prices.

I had a half of Imperial bitter yesterday in the Imperial Club and brewery in Mexborough and it was only 78p for a half,and i could see where the beer was being brewed while i had my drink.
I spent less than £30 pounds on beer yesterday and that was drinking 22 half pints of bitter.

I ended up at the King William IV on Friday, the brewery tap for Brodie's Brewery who is generally thought of as a "Craft" brewer, although i prefer to think of him as "experimental". If I had just gone there rather than chasing a small Spoons festival across North London, I could have had 10 pints of cask beers for between £25 and £26 ranging in strength from 3.1% to 6.6%, leaving enough dosh for a celebratory pint of 10.1% keykeg Simcoe for Breakfast at £3.30, so it's not "Craft" beer that is a rip-off but a lot of the pubs that sell them. I've talked in pints because I never drink halfs.

i suspect that the beers listed above are imported from the USA, so thay are always going to be expensive, even more so as they are being sold at a "special" event.

[london calling]

As Aqualung points out its the pubs not the brewers who are to blame. A lot of the pubs want 300% so if they buy beer for £1 a pint they charge £4 thus £3 profit but when they buy craft beer at £2 a pint they charge £8 thus £6 a pint profit. Even some of the brewers must be gobsmacked at the price charged for their beer. The White Horse just takes the piss when they price up their beer.The Duchess of Cambridge has a lot of the same American beers and are £2 or £2.50 a pint cheaper.

[Mobyduck]

I ended up at the King William IV on Friday, the brewery tap for Brodie's Brewery who is generally thought of as a "Craft" brewer, although i prefer to think of him as "experimental". If I had just gone there rather than chasing a small Spoons festival across North London, I could have had 10 pints of cask beers for between £25 and £26 ranging in strength from 3.1% to 6.6%, leaving enough dosh for a celebratory pint of 10.1% keykeg Simcoe for Breakfast at £3.30, so it's not "Craft" beer that is a rip-off but a lot of the pubs that sell them. I've talked in pints because I never drink halfs.

i suspect that the beers listed above are imported from the USA, so thay are always going to be expensive, even more so as they are being sold at a "special" event.


As Aqualung points out its the pubs not the brewers who are to blame. A lot of the pubs want 300% so if they buy beer for £1 a pint they charge £4 thus £3 profit but when they buy craft beer at £2 a pint they charge £8 thus £6 a pint profit. Even some of the brewers must be gobsmacked at the price charged for their beer. The White Horse just takes the piss when they price up their beer.The Duchess of Cambridge has a lot of the same American beers and are £2 or £2.50 a pint cheaper.
I have to agree with the last two comments, a lot of pubs (by no means all) are taking the piss and giving beer craft or cask and pubs in general a bad press,money grabbing and in no way looking at or even concerned with the bigger picture. I for one will, if possible be boycotting these pubs.

[Aqualung]

I have to agree with the last two comments, a lot of pubs (by no means all) are taking the piss and giving beer craft or cask and pubs in general a bad press,money grabbing and in no way looking at or even concerned with the bigger picture. I for one will, if possible be boycotting these pubs.

To me "Craft" beer includes cask. "Craft" beer is something out of the mainstream or "Left Field", not just keykeg. An early example of this would be Summer Lightning back in the 80's. It's old hat now but was groundbreaking then.

I remember trying Dark Star Expresso Stout some 15 years ago in the Drum and being totally gobsmacked by it (in a good way).

Adnam's are doing all sorts of "Left Field" beers i had a beer from them called Explorer recently that I could have sworn was something from Brodie's (I'm guessing it was packed with hops that I've never heard of).

It's not just Craft beer pubs that are overpriced. How about Fullers? Here is a brewery that happily sells it's bottled ESB to Tesco at a price that allows them to sell four bottles of it to me for under £6. Go to one of their pubs and see what a pint of ESB costs, in many of them it will be three times more and if you get a short measure you'll get 500ml if lucky.

They are banging on (along with Tim Martin) about reducing VAT on pub food to 5%. Would you trust them to pass that saving on to the punter? I certainly wouldn't!!

[Mobyduck]

To me "Craft" beer includes cask. "Craft" beer is something out of the mainstream or "Left Field", not just keykeg. An early example of this would be Summer Lightning back in the 80's. It's old hat now but was groundbreaking then.

I remember trying Dark Star Expresso Stout some 15 years ago in the Drum and being totally gobsmacked by it (in a good way).

Adnam's are doing all sorts of "Left Field" beers i had a beer from them called Explorer recently that I could have sworn was something from Brodie's (I'm guessing it was packed with hops that I've never heard of).

It's not just Craft beer pubs that are overpriced. How about Fullers? Here is a brewery that happily sells it's bottled ESB to Tesco at a price that allows them to sell four bottles of it to me for under £6. Go to one of their pubs and see what a pint of ESB costs, in many of them it will be three times more and if you get a short measure you'll get 500ml if lucky.

They are banging on (along with Tim Martin) about reducing VAT on pub food to 5%. Would you trust them to pass that saving on to the punter? I certainly wouldn't!!
I'm all for ground breaking beers and pubs, just don't want to be ripped off in the process.

[Strongers]

It's not just Craft beer pubs that are overpriced. How about Fullers? Here is a brewery that happily sells it's bottled ESB to Tesco at a price that allows them to sell four bottles of it to me for under £6. Go to one of their pubs and see what a pint of ESB costs, in many of them it will be three times more and if you get a short measure you'll get 500ml if lucky.!!

I grew up around Brentford so I cut my teeth on Fullers beers and still have a taste for a nice pint of Pride, which many on here consider boring!
I love the traditional feel that most of their pubs possess, but over the last few years they have raised their prices on both beer and food to appeal to a certain clientele. Unfortunately I’m not their target demographic anymore.

[oldboots]

A heart warming film by US craft brewers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qszwet2fz5w&feature=youtu.be

slow start but stick with it

[Mobyduck]

A heart warming film by US craft brewers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qszwet2fz5w&feature=youtu.be

slow start but stick with it
Hmmm.

[Al 10000]

The Craft Crap has hit Nottingham in a big way through Castle Rock pubs.

I had a drink in the Keens Head yesterday,a very nice drink of Harvest Pale which cost me nothing i had my Castle Rock collectors card full so it was free,while having my drink i looked at the boards advertising drinks,there area a load of new keg beers on a T bar,one of these was from Magic Rock or Magic Star or Dark Star,i could not be bothered to note the brewery but the price of a pint did bother me,£4.00 for a half making it £8.00 a pint,the Harvest Pale which has won awards was only £3.00 a pint.

No wonder these crap craft beers are kegged they will need to be,i car'nt see them selling that quickly at that price.

[Aqualung]

No wonder these crap craft beers are kegged they will need to be,i car'nt see them selling that quickly at that price.

I have to agree with you about the price, I no longer even look at the keykeg fonts in the William. When everything was £3.30 I would quite happily give the stronger ones a go, especially the Black IPA and the 12% Romanov Stout.
The most expensive pint I've ever had was a £6.00 18.9% keykeg Mikkeller beer in the summer. I know this sounds expensive but it is not as in ABV terms it was the equivalent of five pints of your Castle Rock Harvest Pale.

Three quid a pint for a cooking bitter sounds expensive to me in my Spoons bubble, but the point you are really missing is that Magic Rock and Dark Star both produce cask beers that are of outstanding quality. The Craft tag is rapidly becoming completely meaningless but has never been equated with just keg or keykeg beers. Adnam's have successfully gone down the "craft" route with their Ghost Ship and their Black IPA for the Spoons festival, but their standard brews are still there and just as good as before.

I'm not that familiar with Castle Rock beers but have you tried their Screech Owl which sounds to me like it may be a "craft" beer?

I have to say I had a lovely pint today of the new Brodie's Chocolate Chilli Stout!

[gillhalfpint]

I love Screech Owl cask, haven't had it keg.

[london calling]

The Craft Crap has hit Nottingham in a big way through Castle Rock pubs.

I had a drink in the Keens Head yesterday,a very nice drink of Harvest Pale which cost me nothing i had my Castle Rock collectors card full so it was free,while having my drink i looked at the boards advertising drinks,there area a load of new keg beers on a T bar,one of these was from Magic Rock or Magic Star or Dark Star,i could not be bothered to note the brewery but the price of a pint did bother me,£4.00 for a half making it £8.00 a pint,the Harvest Pale which has won awards was only £3.00 a pint.

No wonder these crap craft beers are kegged they will need to be,i car'nt see them selling that quickly at that price.
Unfortunately its the pub that sets the prices not the brewer.If they used the same mark-up as they have on Harvest bitter it would be £4.50 a pint.Had it in London def didn't pay more than £3.00 a half.Go south young man. cheers

[Aqualung]

I love Screech Owl cask, haven't had it keg.

I rather doubt that they do it on keg! I picked it out from the GBG list of Castle Rock beers that might possibly have the increasingly meaningless "Craft" tag applied to it. If it's rammed with New World hops then it might possibly be a craft beer!!

There is nothing really new going on with the "new wave" or "craft" beers. I seem to recall that when Boddington's ruined their beer in the distant past, the excuse was that it was far too bitter for Southern palates. Maybe Boddies was the original "craft" beer! Around 30 or so years ago the Golden Beer era came about with the introduction of Exmoor Gold and later Summer Lightning. They seem like "safe" options now. I truly believe that in the next few years the boring brown bitter as exemplified by two of my local brews Brodie's Bethnal Green Bitter and ELB Foundation Bitter will make a big comeback.
I'll go along with any beer style if it tastes good, the only exception being sour beers which to me just taste rank.

If a brewer wants to make a Beef Madras and Malteser beer dry hopped with dandelion flowers then why not? If it tastes vile then it won't sell despite any "craft" integrity.

Mark my words, boring brown bitters will make a comeback but in the meantime I'm off for a few Chocolate and Chilli Stouts!

[Wittenden]

Mark my words, boring brown bitters will make a comeback !

Bring 'em on!

[gillhalfpint]

I reckon I am one of the boring brown beer drinkers, but do try any beer, any style. I love chocolate chilli beers. Maybe till the overhopped citrus beers run their course I will be better off going on the dark side. Having said that, I really enjoyed some of the hoppy American beers this year. Can't really explain why as some brewers over here are using American hops now.

[Mobyduck]

Bring 'em on!


I reckon I am one of the boring brown beer drinkers, but do try any beer, any style. I love chocolate chilli beers. Maybe till the overhopped citrus beers run their course I will be better off going on the dark side. Having said that, I really enjoyed some of the hoppy American beers this year. Can't really explain why as some brewers over here are using American hops now.
I can think of nothing worse than boring brown beer,boring yellow Lager maybe, I like a beer with a good strong taste particularly citrus and elderflower, on the other hand I also like a flavoursome stout, I just struggle to enjoy the middle ground. And before any one starts I'm not saying all brown beer is boring,...... just most of it :D

[london calling]

I rather doubt that they do it on keg! I picked it out from the GBG list of Castle Rock beers that might possibly have the increasingly meaningless "Craft" tag applied to it. If it's rammed with New World hops then it might possibly be a craft beer!!

There is nothing really new going on with the "new wave" or "craft" beers. I seem to recall that when Boddington's ruined their beer in the distant past, the excuse was that it was far too bitter for Southern palates. Maybe Boddies was the original "craft" beer! Around 30 or so years ago the Golden Beer era came about with the introduction of Exmoor Gold and later Summer Lightning. They seem like "safe" options now. I truly believe that in the next few years the boring brown bitter as exemplified by two of my local brews Brodie's Bethnal Green Bitter and ELB Foundation Bitter will make a big comeback.
I'll go along with any beer style if it tastes good, the only exception being sour beers which to me just taste rank.

If a brewer wants to make a Beef Madras and Malteser beer dry hopped with dandelion flowers then why not? If it tastes vile then it won't sell despite any "craft" integrity.

Mark my words, boring brown bitters will make a comeback but in the meantime I'm off for a few Chocolate and Chilli Stouts!

If having American hops makes it craft beer Al ,s Harvest pale at £3.00 a pint and brewed exclusively with American hops is a Craft beer. Welcome to the craft beer drinkers club Al. Although there may be other definitions of what is craft imo.

[Wittenden]

I can think of nothing worse than boring brown beer,boring yellow Lager maybe, I like a beer with a good strong taste particularly citrus and elderflower, on the other hand I also like a flavoursome stout, I just struggle to enjoy the middle ground. And before any one starts I'm not saying all brown beer is boring,...... just most of it :D

I drink and enjoy most beers,excepting lager, but I like them to taste of beer, not grapefruit juice.The more farmyardy, farty and earthy the better. having said that, I tend to go to trustworthy micros and smaller family brewers. Not too worried if it isn't made by chaps with silly hats and ironic beards.Definitely no keg.

[aleandhearty]

Mark my words, boring brown bitters will make a comeback!

Here in Yorkshire, if you take the specialist alehouses out of the equation, you could argue they've never gone away, with vast numbers of pubs selling nothing else. No doubt there will be 'new wave' BBB's from the craft beer movement at some stage and a tedious validation process to accompany them.

[trainman]

Here in Yorkshire, if you take the specialist alehouses out of the equation, you could argue they've never gone away, with vast numbers of pubs selling nothing else. No doubt there will be 'new wave' BBB's from the craft beer movement at some stage and a tedious validation process to accompany them.

New wave Brown IPA?
Brown - the new Black!

[Wittenden]

Here in Yorkshire, if you take the specialist alehouses out of the equation, you could argue they've never gone away, with vast numbers of pubs selling nothing else.

Craft beer, like heavy duty IPAs , seems to be a fairly urban/metropolitan phenomenon. Most of my drinking takes place in fairly rural locations,so I don't often come across the vanguards of beer hipsterism. Thank God.

[aleandhearty]

Here in Yorkshire, if you take the specialist alehouses out of the equation, you could argue they've never gone away, with vast numbers of pubs selling nothing else. No doubt there will be 'new wave' BBB's from the craft beer movement at some stage and a tedious validation process to accompany them.


New wave Brown IPA?
Brown - the new Black!

It was only a matter of time. I had a pint of Rat Brewery's Verminator last night in the Fernandes Tap. Described on the pump clip as...you've guessed it...a Brown IPA! (Rather nice, actually).

[Mobyduck]

Defining Craft Beer.
http://www.brewdog.com/blog-article/defining-craft-beer-at-siba

[sheffield hatter]

Defining Craft Beer.
http://www.brewdog.com/blog-article/defining-craft-beer-at-siba

Loved this comment: "so a craft beer is brewed by a craft brewery and a craft brewery is one that brews craft beer -- doooh"


None of the commenters mentioned point 1(a). What does "brews all their beers at original gravity" mean? Surely when you start the brewing process the wort has a specific gravity which is called the original gravity. Once the yeast starts to work on the sugars in the wort, the specific gravity reduces and the beer is no longer at its original gravity. When the process ends, the finished beer has a final specific gravity. The difference between the starting and finishing SG enables a calculation of the beer's strength to be made.

What point are they trying to make here?

[Mobyduck]

What point are they trying to make here?
Beats me :confused:

[Aqualung]

I've given up in trying to define what "Craft Beer"actually is but would just say that Doom Bore or Sam Smith's OBB certainly are not and some Adnam's products like Ghost Ship and their USA Wetherspoon's brews are.

To counter various comments about designer specs, beards (ironic or otherwise) and silly hats, I would like to point out that the brewer at my soon to open local brewery (Wild Card) sports none of these. She is a young woman of mixed race who really knows her stuff. OK, I'll admit the bloke from Brewdog at Brodie's has a beard and sometimes sports a tea-cosy on his head, but you can't win them all!!

[oldboots]

None of the commenters mentioned point 1(a). What does "brews all their beers at original gravity" mean? Surely when you start the brewing process the wort has a specific gravity which is called the original gravity. Once the yeast starts to work on the sugars in the wort, the specific gravity reduces and the beer is no longer at its original gravity. When the process ends, the finished beer has a final specific gravity. The difference between the starting and finishing SG enables a calculation of the beer's strength to be made.

What point are they trying to make here?

Presumably this refers to high gravity brewing where the finished beer is diluted, so that for example a beer is brewed at an OG of 1080 and the finished beer is watered down to the equivalent strength of one brewed at 1040. Courage used to do this at the Bristol brewery in the 1980s where some of a high gravity brew was diluted to make Directors and the rest diluted a bit more to make Best Bitter, they also did it earlier in London where Imperial Russian Stout was watered to make Velvet Stout. I don't know who does it these days but Brewdog must suspect its use somewhere.

As I think Tandleman pointed out, how does this work with freeze distillation as used by........ err Brewdog.

[oldboots]

I've given up in trying to define what "Craft Beer"actually is but would just say that Doom Bore or Sam Smith's OBB certainly are not and some Adnam's products like Ghost Ship and their USA Wetherspoon's brews are.

To counter various comments about designer specs, beards (ironic or otherwise) and silly hats, I would like to point out that the brewer at my soon to open local brewery (Wild Card) sports none of these. She is a young woman of mixed race who really knows her stuff. OK, I'll admit the bloke from Brewdog at Brodie's has a beard and sometimes sports a tea-cosy on his head, but you can't win them all!!

I thought it had been defined as "any beer that tastes of grapefruit" :D

[Al 10000]

I've given up in trying to define what "Craft Beer"actually is but would just say that Doom Bore or Sam Smith's OBB certainly are not and some Adnam's products like Ghost Ship and their USA Wetherspoon's brews are.


I think your definition of a craft beer is a beer that you like,if you dont like a beer like the superb Samuel Smiths Old Brewery Bitter then it is not a craft beer.

[Aqualung]

I think your definition of a craft beer is a beer that you like,if you dont like a beer like the superb Samuel Smiths Old Brewery Bitter then it is not a craft beer.

Maybe they are trying to give it "craft" credentials by only selling it on keg in several of their London outlets.

[Mobyduck]

Maybe they are trying to give it "craft" credentials by only selling it on keg in several of their London outlets.
Its crap whatever they call it or however they serve it. ;)

[sheffield hatter]

Its crap whatever they call it or however they serve it. ;)

Sam Smiths is a brewery well known for the quality of its ingredients and the integrity of its brewing processes, so I assume when you say "it's crap" you mean simply that you don't like it?

[Aqualung]

Sam Smiths is a brewery well known for the quality of its ingredients and the integrity of its brewing processes, so I assume when you say "it's crap" you mean simply that you don't like it?
I thought this brewery was notorious for being very secretive about what they do. Therefore, how could anyone know what their ingredients are let alone the quality of them?

[london calling]

Its crap whatever they call it or however they serve it. ;)
I will second that motion.

[Mobyduck]

I will second that motion.
Motion could be the operative word. :evilgrin:

[Aqualung]

I will second that motion.

I'm detecting a North / South divide here!!

[london calling]

Presumably this refers to high gravity brewing where the finished beer is diluted, so that for example a beer is brewed at an OG of 1080 and the finished beer is watered down to the equivalent strength of one brewed at 1040. Courage used to do this at the Bristol brewery in the 1980s where some of a high gravity brew was diluted to make Directors and the rest diluted a bit more to make Best Bitter, they also did it earlier in London where Imperial Russian Stout was watered to make Velvet Stout. I don't know who does it these days but Brewdog must suspect its use somewhere.

As I think Tandleman pointed out, how does this work with freeze distillation as used by........ err Brewdog.

Fullers still use this system .Its called part-gyle.They only brew one beer which is drawn off at different times and different abv,s then they mix them to produce Golden Pride-Esb-Pride and Chiswick bitter. They think it gives better consistency than brewing 4 separate beers.The seasonals are usually separate beers.So not craft according to Brewdog.

[sheffield hatter]

I've given up in trying to define what "Craft Beer"actually is but would just say that Doom Bore or Sam Smith's OBB certainly are not and some Adnam's products like Ghost Ship and their USA Wetherspoon's brews are.


I think your definition of a craft beer is a beer that you like,if you dont like a beer like the superb Samuel Smiths Old Brewery Bitter then it is not a craft beer.


I'm detecting a North / South divide here!!

I don't think it's a North/South thing. Al 10000 responded to your (I hope tongue in cheek) definition of craft with a mild criticism. I merely joined in because Moby called Sam Smiths "crap", which I don't think is justified. If he wants to call it "not craft", that's fine by me, but since when diid "not craft" = "crap"?

Of course, as with Humpty Dumpty in Through the Looking Glass, you can use a term to mean just what you choose it to mean — neither more nor less. It's just not very helpful to anyone else, as Al was trying to point out, if it's craft when you like the beer and not craft when you don't. Or did you have a more helpful way of distinguishing the two Adnams beers?

I think the problem over this "what is craft?" thing is that those who brew challenging beers and those that like drinking them are looking down their noses a little at those of us with less advanced taste buds. I don't want to find myself defending Doom Bar as well as Sam Smiths, but there are plenty of people who like drinking non-challenging beers - beer is supposed to be a pleasant and refreshing drink, isn't it? There are some days when I arrive in a pub to find eight or ten hand pumps serving beers I've never heard of from breweries that started up last week, and I'm glad to have the chance of saying, "a pint of Black Sheep Bitter, please."



I thought it had been defined as "any beer that tastes of grapefruit" :D

Now that's a definition that's hard to argue with. ;)

[Mobyduck]

Sam Smiths is a brewery well known for the quality of its ingredients and the integrity of its brewing processes, so I assume when you say "it's crap" you mean simply that you don't like it?
yes as simple as that . :D

[Aqualung]

I don't think it's a North/South thing. Al 10000 responded to your (I hope tongue in cheek) definition of craft with a mild criticism.


I didn't actually try and define "craft". My point was that Doom Bore and OBB are bog standard old school beers whereas some of the recent Adnam's beers are clearly not.




Of course, as with Humpty Dumpty in Through the Looking Glass, you can use a term to mean just what you choose it to mean — neither more nor less. It's just not very helpful to anyone else, as Al was trying to point out, if it's craft when you like the beer and not craft when you don't. Or did you have a more helpful way of distinguishing the two Adnams beers?




I agree the "Craft" tag is meaningless, but this is the first time ever I have heard anyone describe OBB as superb and I'm going back over 35 years. My point about Adnam's was basically that they are the only major regional to date that have really got to grips with the use of New World hop combinations. I still don't like Broadside.




I think the problem over this "what is craft?" thing is that those who brew challenging beers and those that like drinking them are looking down their noses a little at those of us with less advanced taste buds.


Aren't we all looking down our noses at people that willingly just drink smooth crap all of the time?


There are plenty of people who like drinking non-challenging beers - beer is supposed to be a pleasant and refreshing drink, isn't it? There are some days when I arrive in a pub to find eight or ten hand pumps serving beers I've never heard of from breweries that started up last week, and I'm glad to have the chance of saying, "a pint of Black Sheep Bitter, please".


That is a very fair and valid point, I've heard people in the William complain that the only old school bitter is Bethnal Green, but even that is more like old school Manchester beer than London.
If it wasn't for the pubs with 8-10 pumps we would all be stuck with the boring national blands.

[Wittenden]

I don't often get to try Sam Smith's now,either in that
London (I won't drink keg), or in Yorkshire. However, when I first went into the Northeast,via the Norfolk beer desert of the mid seventies, SS OBB was one of the very few real ales available, alongside a rare pint of Theakstons , a drop of Camerons and something dire from Bass Charrington.
I wouldn't call it craft, despite the alleged corporate eccentries,but a decent English bitter when not mucked about with. As the yoof say,I've had worse.

[Mobyduck]

I think the problem over this "what is craft?" thing is that those who brew challenging beers and those that like drinking them are looking down their noses a little at those of us with less advanced taste buds. I don't want to find myself defending Doom Bar as well as Sam Smiths, but there are plenty of people who like drinking non-challenging beers - beer is supposed to be a pleasant and refreshing drink, isn't it? There are some days when I arrive in a pub to find eight or ten hand pumps serving beers I've never heard of from breweries that started up last week, and I'm glad to have the chance of saying, "a pint of Black Sheep Bitter, please."





Now that's a definition that's hard to argue with. ;)
It doesn't matter whether its called craft or crap, if you like it you like it,if you don't you don't, I certainly don't look down my nose at people who enjoy the likes of Doombar ,Blacksheep Bitter or indeed OBB, I am not particularly fond of those just mentioned but thats my taste, calling OBB crap is no different to using the phrase "John Smiths Smooth crap" which many on here have used and I agree with,(are we looking down our noses at them?) I'm sure there are some out there who enjoy it, and, even Fosters :sick: :D. This isn't a pop at anyone its how I see it.
P.S. I like beers that taste of Grapefruit. :D

[oldboots]

Maybe they are trying to give it "craft" credentials by only selling it on keg in several of their London outlets.

Sam's will not serve cask beer south of, I think, Derby, one of Mr Humphrey's little ways.

[oldboots]

Fullers still use this system .Its called part-gyle.They only brew one beer which is drawn off at different times and different abv,s then they mix them to produce Golden Pride-Esb-Pride and Chiswick bitter. They think it gives better consistency than brewing 4 separate beers.The seasonals are usually separate beers.So not craft according to Brewdog.

I think parti-gyleing is slightly different, high gravity involves brewing at, for beer yeast, very high gravity (1080-1100 or roughly 8-11% ABV) then watering down to achieve a more moderate strength of say around 4% abv.

[rpadam]

Sam's will not serve cask beer south of, I think, Derby, one of Mr Humphrey's little ways.
??? There's quite a bit of it in London (perhaps 50% of Sam Smiths outlets?), but how they choose which ones have cask OBB and those which take the keg version defeats me since there is no obvious differentiating factor that I can see...

[Al 10000]

??? There's quite a bit of it in London (perhaps 50% of Sam Smiths outlets?), but how they choose which ones have cask OBB and those which take the keg version defeats me since there is no obvious differentiating factor that I can see...

Yes there are qite a few Samuel Smiths pubs in London that sell real ale.

I have been in 137 Samuel Smiths pubs,i like their pubs and their beers,i even like the keg version of OBB.

I have been in 34 Samuel Smiths pubs in London 14 had real ale on and 19 had only keg on,the one missing pub is now a
Shepherd Neame tied house.

The pubs in London which had real on were

Lyceum Tavern /covent garden :12/3/1988
Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese /city EC4 : /4/6/2004
Rising Sun /smithfield : 10/6/2004
Chandos /covent garden : 17/7/2004
The Cock /fitzrovia : 4/12/2004
Cittie of York /holborn : 30/12/2003
Blue Posts /fitzrovia : 4/12/2004
Princess Louise /bloomsbury : 4/12/2004
Crown and Sugarloaf /city EC4 : 31/3/2005
Yorkshire Grey /fitzrovia : 15/10/2005
The Angel /covent garden : 12/11/2005
Town Wharf /isleworth : 26/11/2005
Ye Olde Swiss Cottage /swiss cottage : 3/11/2007
The Cardinal /westminster : 11/1/2008

Keg Samuel Smith pubs in London were

Red Lion /soho : 4/12/2004
White Horse /soho : 4/12/2004
The Champion /fitzrovia : 4/12/2004
Bricklayers Arms /fitzrovia : 4/12/2004
Fitzroy Tavern /fitzrovia : 4/12/2004
Captain Kidd /wapping :10/2/2005
Earl of Lonsdale /notting hill : 5/3/2005
Robert Browing /maida vale : 30/4/2005
Dover Castle /marylebone : 30/4/2005
Angel in the Fields /marylebone : 15/10/2005
Duke of York /marylebone : 15/10/2005
Horse and Groom /fitzrovia : 15/10/2005
Duke of Argyl /soho : 12/11/2005
The Crown /bloomsbury : 12/11/2005
The Angel /rotherhithe : 20/5/2006
Anchor Tap /southwark : 20/5/2006
John Snow /soho : 22/2/2007
Glasshouse Stores /soho : 22/2/2007
The Gazebo /kingston : 2/5/2009

There are a few more to do in London yet.

All of this information was taken from my pub lists not the internet,all pubs were visted on the date shown.

[london calling]

I think parti-gyleing is slightly different, high gravity involves brewing at, for beer yeast, very high gravity (1080-1100 or roughly 8-11% ABV) then watering down to achieve a more moderate strength of say around 4% abv.
You are probably right on that as I am not sure how the part-gyling actually works.cheers john

[london calling]

??? There's quite a bit of it in London (perhaps 50% of Sam Smiths outlets?), but how they choose which ones have cask OBB and those which take the keg version defeats me since there is no obvious differentiating factor that I can see...

I met one of the Sams managers a couple of years ago and he told me only pubs that can shift 2 x18 gallon barrels a day are allowed to serve cask.About 300 pints a day.

[london calling]

Yes there are qite a few Samuel Smiths pubs in London that sell real ale.

I have been in 137 Samuel Smiths pubs,i like their pubs and their beers,i even like the keg version of OBB.

I have been in 34 Samuel Smiths pubs in London 14 had real ale on and 19 had only keg on,the one missing pub is now a
Shepherd Neame tied house.

The pubs in London which had real on were

Lyceum Tavern /covent garden :12/3/1988
Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese /city EC4 : /4/6/2004
Rising Sun /smithfield : 10/6/2004
Chandos /covent garden : 17/7/2004
The Cock /fitzrovia : 4/12/2004
Cittie of York /holborn : 30/12/2003
Blue Posts /fitzrovia : 4/12/2004
Princess Louise /bloomsbury : 4/12/2004
Crown and Sugarloaf /city EC4 : 31/3/2005
Yorkshire Grey /fitzrovia : 15/10/2005
The Angel /covent garden : 12/11/2005
Town Wharf /isleworth : 26/11/2005
Ye Olde Swiss Cottage /swiss cottage : 3/11/2007
The Cardinal /westminster : 11/1/2008

Keg Samuel Smith pubs in London were

Red Lion /soho : 4/12/2004
White Horse /soho : 4/12/2004
The Champion /fitzrovia : 4/12/2004
Bricklayers Arms /fitzrovia : 4/12/2004
Fitzroy Tavern /fitzrovia : 4/12/2004
Captain Kidd /wapping :10/2/2005
Earl of Lonsdale /notting hill : 5/3/2005
Robert Browing /maida vale : 30/4/2005
Dover Castle /marylebone : 30/4/2005
Angel in the Fields /marylebone : 15/10/2005
Duke of York /marylebone : 15/10/2005
Horse and Groom /fitzrovia : 15/10/2005
Duke of Argyl /soho : 12/11/2005
The Crown /bloomsbury : 12/11/2005
The Angel /rotherhithe : 20/5/2006
Anchor Tap /southwark : 20/5/2006
John Snow /soho : 22/2/2007
Glasshouse Stores /soho : 22/2/2007
The Gazebo /kingston : 2/5/2009

There are a few more to do in London yet.

All of this information was taken from my pub lists not the internet,all pubs were visted on the date shown.

That list is badly out of date as I personally think there are only a few cask outlets in London now.

[sheffield hatter]

Lyceum Tavern /covent garden :12/3/1988 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22113/) 1st February 2014 - still serving real ale
Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese /city EC4 : /4/6/2004 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/56162/) 28th February 2014 - still serving real ale
Rising Sun /smithfield : 10/6/2004 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/23355/) 30th August 2008 - still serving real ale
Chandos /covent garden : 17/7/2004 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22078/) 12th November 2013 - still serving real ale
The Cock /fitzrovia : 4/12/2004 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22217/) 24th November 2011 - still serving real ale
Cittie of York /holborn : 30/12/2003 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubreviews/21917/) 16th November 2013 - still serving real ale
Blue Posts /fitzrovia : 4/12/2004 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22350/) 3rd June 2012 - still serving real ale
Princess Louise /bloomsbury : 4/12/2004 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22020/) 26th January 2012 - still serving real ale
Crown and Sugarloaf /city EC4 : 31/3/2005 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/54260/) 16th June 2013 - no longer serving real ale
Yorkshire Grey /fitzrovia : 15/10/2005 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22406/) 11th July 2010 - still serving real ale
The Angel /covent garden : 12/11/2005 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22070/) 11th August 2013 - still serving real ale
Town Wharf /isleworth : 26/11/2005 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/27685/) 18th October 2010 - still serving real ale
Ye Olde Swiss Cottage /swiss cottage : 3/11/2007 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/23756/) 13th March 2010 - still serving real ale (more recent review makes no mention of beer at all)
The Cardinal (now the Windsor Castle) /westminster : 11/1/2008 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22856/) 9th May 2013 - still serving real ale

[rpadam]

That list is badly out of date as I personally think there are only a few cask outlets in London now.
Not sue I agree, since the Crown & Sugarloaf is the only one I know of that has changed to keg. On the other hand, the Dover Castle in Marylebone has changed the other way.

[Al 10000]

Lyceum Tavern /covent garden :12/3/1988 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22113/) 1st February 2014 - still serving real ale
Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese /city EC4 : /4/6/2004 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/56162/) 28th February 2014 - still serving real ale
Rising Sun /smithfield : 10/6/2004 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/23355/) 30th August 2008 - still serving real ale
Chandos /covent garden : 17/7/2004 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22078/) 12th November 2013 - still serving real ale
The Cock /fitzrovia : 4/12/2004 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22217/) 24th November 2011 - still serving real ale
Cittie of York /holborn : 30/12/2003 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubreviews/21917/) 16th November 2013 - still serving real ale
Blue Posts /fitzrovia : 4/12/2004 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22350/) 3rd June 2012 - still serving real ale
Princess Louise /bloomsbury : 4/12/2004 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22020/) 26th January 2012 - still serving real ale
Crown and Sugarloaf /city EC4 : 31/3/2005 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/54260/) 16th June 2013 - no longer serving real ale
Yorkshire Grey /fitzrovia : 15/10/2005 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22406/) 11th July 2010 - still serving real ale
The Angel /covent garden : 12/11/2005 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22070/) 11th August 2013 - still serving real ale
Town Wharf /isleworth : 26/11/2005 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/27685/) 18th October 2010 - still serving real ale
Ye Olde Swiss Cottage /swiss cottage : 3/11/2007 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/23756/) 13th March 2010 - still serving real ale (more recent review makes no mention of beer at all)
The Cardinal (now the Windsor Castle) /westminster : 11/1/2008 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22856/) 9th May 2013 - still serving real ale

Thank you very much Sheffield Hatter :notworthy:,

For taking the time to look into my list and prove me almost right about the Samuel Smiths pubs i have visited in London :D

[Aqualung]

While on this diversion from the original thread, does anyone know what the first Sam Smith's pub to open in London was?
There are plenty that I can definitely say are not, but don't have an answer. I believe the Rose of York on the outskirts of Richmond was one of the early ones. I knew it as the Tudor Close when it did Ruddles County. I think one of the Fitzrovia ones goes back a long way.

[Al 10000]

While on this diversion from the original thread, does anyone know what the first Sam Smith's pub to open in London was?
There are plenty that I can definitely say are not, but don't have an answer. I believe the Rose of York on the outskirts of Richmond was one of the early ones. I knew it as the Tudor Close when it did Ruddles County. I think one of the Fitzrovia ones goes back a long way.

In my 1976 GBG it says almost all Samuel Smiths pubs served real ale,there are no Samuel Smiths pubs lised in London in that guide.

By 1981 the Real Beer in London guide lists 4 Samuel Smiths pubs,this was after a quick look through.

These were

Fitzroy Tavern :fitzrovia
Red Lion :soho
Lyceum Tavern : covent garden
Rose of York : richmond

I noticed in my quick look through that guide that these now Samuel Smiths pub were not in 1981

Dover Castle : marylebone
Cock : fitzrovia
Duke of Argyl : soho
The Crown : bloomsbury
Princess Louise : bloomsbury
Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese : city EC4

The Tudor Close that you mentioned was a free house in 1976 stocking 4 real ales Brakspear,Youngs,Ruddles and Whitbread,by 1981 it was under Samuel Smiths.

[Bucking Fastard]

Certainly remember drinking Sam Smith's real ale prior to 1981 in the Lyceum Tavern but ,as I was a session drinker in those days, more than two pints of Sam Smiths I found to be a real struggle. (Just not to my taste.) So we often looked for pastures new on the real ale front after an hour in The Lyceum Tavern,finding a decent pint in London was never easy those days.

[Aqualung]

In my 1976 GBG it says almost all Samuel Smiths pubs served real ale,there are no Samuel Smiths pubs lised in London in that guide.

By 1981 the Real Beer in London guide lists 4 Samuel Smiths pubs,this was after a quick look through.

These were

Fitzroy Tavern :fitzrovia
Red Lion :soho
Lyceum Tavern : covent garden
Rose of York : richmond

I noticed in my quick look through that guide that these now Samuel Smiths pub were not in 1981

Dover Castle : marylebone
Cock : fitzrovia
Duke of Argyl : soho
The Crown : bloomsbury
Princess Louise : bloomsbury
Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese : city EC4

The Tudor Close that you mentioned was a free house in 1976 stocking 4 real ales Brakspear,Youngs,Ruddles and Whitbread,by 1981 it was under Samuel Smiths.

Thanks for that, I had a suspicion that the Lyceum Tavern may be a contender. I don't know the Red Lion in Soho at all.

In the second list I would have discounted them all apart from the Fitzrovia Cock which I don't know. In the late 70's the Princess Louise was a free house with interesting beers. I'm pretty sure that Sam Smiths took over Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese in the early 90s. When I first went there I believe it was about the only pub in London that sold Pedigree, which they used to sell by the barrel load.

[london calling]

Lyceum Tavern /covent garden :12/3/1988 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22113/) 1st February 2014 - still serving real ale
Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese /city EC4 : /4/6/2004 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/56162/) 28th February 2014 - still serving real ale
Rising Sun /smithfield : 10/6/2004 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/23355/) 30th August 2008 - still serving real ale
Chandos /covent garden : 17/7/2004 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22078/) 12th November 2013 - still serving real ale
The Cock /fitzrovia : 4/12/2004 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22217/) 24th November 2011 - still serving real ale
Cittie of York /holborn : 30/12/2003 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubreviews/21917/) 16th November 2013 - still serving real ale
Blue Posts /fitzrovia : 4/12/2004 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22350/) 3rd June 2012 - still serving real ale
Princess Louise /bloomsbury : 4/12/2004 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22020/) 26th January 2012 - still serving real ale
Crown and Sugarloaf /city EC4 : 31/3/2005 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/54260/) 16th June 2013 - no longer serving real ale
Yorkshire Grey /fitzrovia : 15/10/2005 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22406/) 11th July 2010 - still serving real ale
The Angel /covent garden : 12/11/2005 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22070/) 11th August 2013 - still serving real ale
Town Wharf /isleworth : 26/11/2005 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/27685/) 18th October 2010 - still serving real ale
Ye Olde Swiss Cottage /swiss cottage : 3/11/2007 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/23756/) 13th March 2010 - still serving real ale (more recent review makes no mention of beer at all)
The Cardinal (now the Windsor Castle) /westminster : 11/1/2008 PuG review (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22856/) 9th May 2013 - still serving real ale
I bow to your superior knowledge and am surprised so many still serve cask.You can delete the Town Wharf as its been closed for a few years and was not selling cask before it closed.

[sheffield hatter]

I bow to your superior knowledge and am surprised so many still serve cask.You can delete the Town Wharf as its been closed for a few years and was not selling cask before it closed.

Not superior knowledge - just half an hour of research on Pubs Galore, that excellent pubs listing website!

The Town Wharf in Isleworth is still showing as open on What Pub (http://whatpub.com/pubs/HOU/6746/town-wharf-isleworth), and still serving real ale, apparently. Also mentioned in a blog (http://www.allinlondon.co.uk/blogs/showblog.php?post=2433) (2012).

[Aqualung]

I bow to your superior knowledge and am surprised so many still serve cask.You can delete the Town Wharf as its been closed for a few years and was not selling cask before it closed.
I wasn't going to say this but now you have raised it I don't think that reviews from more than two years ago prove anything about the current real ale situation.
The only Sam Smith's pub I want to revisit is the Princess Louise. I remember when Watney's gave it up and it became a free house as I was working nearby at the time. If this place, the Cittie of York or Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese got rid of cask then it would be a travesty.

[sheffield hatter]

I wasn't going to say this but now you have raised it I don't think that reviews from more than two years ago prove anything about the current real ale situation.
The only Sam Smith's pub I want to revisit is the Princess Louise. I remember when Watney's gave it up and it became a free house as I was working nearby at the time. If this place, the Cittie of York or Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese got rid of cask then it would be a travesty.

Eight of the 14 pubs which Al 10000 had visited when they served real ale (admittedly quite a long time ago) were reviewed in the last two years on Pubs Galore, and only one of them had gone from hand pump to keg. If pubs haven't been reviewed recently, there's a simple solution: put your head around the door! I don't think it's very helpful to state "that list is badly out of date as I personally think there are only a few cask outlets in London now" when in fact the evidence of the site of which we are all proud members is that this is not the case.

I agree that it would be a shame if the Princess Louise, Cittie of York or Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese got rid of cask, but I don't think it's been suggested anywhere that this is a likely scenario. This diversion of the original thread started with you, Moby and John slagging off Sam Smiths, which me and Al 10000 think is unwarranted. Now you're having a go at them over something that's not even happened yet!

[Mobyduck]

Eight of the 14 pubs which Al 10000 had visited when they served real ale (admittedly quite a long time ago) were reviewed in the last two years on Pubs Galore, and only one of them had gone from hand pump to keg. If pubs haven't been reviewed recently, there's a simple solution: put your head around the door! I don't think it's very helpful to state "that list is badly out of date as I personally think there are only a few cask outlets in London now" when in fact the evidence of the site of which we are all proud members is that this is not the case.

I agree that it would be a shame if the Princess Louise, Cittie of York or Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese got rid of cask, but I don't think it's been suggested anywhere that this is a likely scenario. This diversion of the original thread started with you, Moby and John slagging off Sam Smiths, which me and Al 10000 think is unwarranted. Now you're having a go at them over something that's not even happened yet!
Not sure who I am supposed to be having a go at,:confused:, apart from the fact I called Sam Smiths crap, which in my opinion it is, only ever tried it in London, maybe theres a difference? Or maybe not, I just happen not to care for it.

[oldboots]

You are probably right on that as I am not sure how the part-gyling actually works.cheers john

it's a concept that's a bit hard to understand but Ron Pattinson makes a good stab at explaining it here (http://barclayperkins.blogspot.co.uk/2010/04/party-gyles.html), slightly technical and the quotes are very technical but you can probably get the gist of how it works. There is some dilution with "liquor" (water) or extra boiling to concentrate the sugars involved according to Mr Hind who Pattinson quotes.

The examples and a comment from John Keeling Head Brewer at Fullers is here (http://barclayperkins.blogspot.co.uk/2010/04/parti-gyle-examples.html)

[Thuck Phat]

I called Sam Smiths crap, which in my opinion it is, only ever tried it in London, maybe theres a difference? Or maybe not, I just happen not to care for it.

A friend of mine has maintained for years that it curdles as soon as it crosses the Yorkshire border. I haven't tried it outside Yorkshire for many years but maybe he's on to something.

[Aqualung]

This diversion of the original thread started with you, Moby and John slagging off Sam Smiths, which me and Al 10000 think is unwarranted. Now you're having a go at them over something that's not even happened yet!

I wasn't aware that I was "having a go" at anyone here, nor did I actually slag off OBB, just stated that it would never be classed as a "craft beer". If I do get to the Princess Louise I will have a pint of it but would be surprised if I were to find it more enjoyable than the Brodie's beer in the nearby Crosse Keys. If it was just keg I would walk out.

[oldboots]

A friend of mine has maintained for years that it curdles as soon as it crosses the Yorkshire border. I haven't tried it outside Yorkshire for many years but maybe he's on to something.

It can often be cold vinegar inside Yorkshire but when properly looked after it's not a bad beer, maybe it's crossing the West Riding border it doesn't like :D

[london calling]

Eight of the 14 pubs which Al 10000 had visited when they served real ale (admittedly quite a long time ago) were reviewed in the last two years on Pubs Galore, and only one of them had gone from hand pump to keg. If pubs haven't been reviewed recently, there's a simple solution: put your head around the door! I don't think it's very helpful to state "that list is badly out of date as I personally think there are only a few cask outlets in London now" when in fact the evidence of the site of which we are all proud members is that this is not the case.

I agree that it would be a shame if the Princess Louise, Cittie of York or Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese got rid of cask, but I don't think it's been suggested anywhere that this is a likely scenario. This diversion of the original thread started with you, Moby and John slagging off Sam Smiths, which me and Al 10000 think is unwarranted. Now you're having a go at them over something that's not even happened yet!
I did say personally so its my opinion but I did say I if I am wrong I apologise. I would be happy to review those pubs but it would mean drinking Sam Smiths beers.Sam Smiths bottled beers are superb but as they have decided to charge £5.50 a bottle in London they no longer appeal.

[Wittenden]

According to Boak and Bailey we're now in a post-craft age. Heigh ho, another bandwagon I've missed.

[aleandhearty]

According to Boak and Bailey we're now in a post-craft age. Heigh ho, another bandwagon I've missed.

Post craft? Oh, gawd 'elp us!

[london calling]

Not superior knowledge - just half an hour of research on Pubs Galore, that excellent pubs listing website!

The Town Wharf in Isleworth is still showing as open on What Pub (http://whatpub.com/pubs/HOU/6746/town-wharf-isleworth), and still serving real ale, apparently. Also mentioned in a blog (http://www.allinlondon.co.uk/blogs/showblog.php?post=2433) (2012).
What pub is correct it is open but only keg OBB.

[hondo]

It's been a long day on the bevvy but here goes. I don't see what the problem is we are all free to drink whatever we want. I think we've never had it so good in terms of the variety generally available in pubs between keg, real ale, craft keg, smooth, cold, creamy, extra cold, special, best whatever VIVE LA DIFFERENCE(sorry for shouting) at times this thread gives me flashbacks of bikes and pink floyds 8th album. Drink in peace.

[Al 10000]

I had a drink of London Fields Hackney Hopster yeaterday,i presume this is a craft beer because of the price and it being keg and very cold,what did bother me about this beer was the fact that it was very cloudy,i felt out of my comfort zone in this type of pub and thought better of taking it back incase it was meant to be like this.

I would have enjoyed the drink more it was a clear bright looking bitter even if it was very cold and expensive,should this beer be like that or did i have a duff drink.

[Bucking Fastard]

I had a drink of London Fields Hackney Hopster yeaterday,i presume this is a craft beer because of the price and it being keg and very cold,what did bother me about this beer was the fact that it was very cloudy,i felt out of my comfort zone in this type of pub and thought better of taking it back incase it was meant to be like this.

I would have enjoyed the drink more it was a clear bright looking bitter even if it was very cold and expensive,should this beer be like that or did i have a duff drink.

I had a pint of Hackney Hopster recently on cask in The Doric Arch and it was clear.Sounds like you got a particularly bad pint unless it was so cold that it was turning to slush ;)

[oldboots]

I had a drink of London Fields Hackney Hopster yeaterday,i presume this is a craft beer because of the price and it being keg and very cold,what did bother me about this beer was the fact that it was very cloudy,i felt out of my comfort zone in this type of pub and thought better of taking it back incase it was meant to be like this.

I would have enjoyed the drink more it was a clear bright looking bitter even if it was very cold and expensive,should this beer be like that or did i have a duff drink.


I had a pint of Hackney Hopster recently on cask in The Doric Arch and it was clear.Sounds like you got a particularly bad pint unless it was so cold that it was turning to slush ;)

Ah a sub species of craft beer is "London Murky" it's meant to be cloudy apparently

a few comments on it here (http://tandlemanbeerblog.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/not-fan.html) and here (http://curmudgeoncolumns.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/may-2014.html)

[aleandhearty]

I had a drink of London Fields Hackney Hopster yeaterday,i presume this is a craft beer because of the price and it being keg and very cold,what did bother me about this beer was the fact that it was very cloudy,i felt out of my comfort zone in this type of pub and thought better of taking it back incase it was meant to be like this.

I would have enjoyed the drink more it was a clear bright looking bitter even if it was very cold and expensive,should this beer be like that or did i have a duff drink.


I had a pint of Hackney Hopster recently on cask in The Doric Arch and it was clear.Sounds like you got a particularly bad pint unless it was so cold that it was turning to slush ;)

Having not had a pint of HH, I will bow to BF's superior knowledge. However, it seems your confusion may be understandable, Al. Take a look at Curmudgeon's latest blog, in para 3 of 'Another Country' where he describes the rise of the phenomenon known as 'London Murky'.
http://curmudgeoncolumns.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/may-2014.html

[Al 10000]

Ah a sub species of craft beer is "London Murky" it's meant to be cloudy apparently

a few comments on it here (http://tandlemanbeerblog.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/not-fan.html)

My half looked a lot worse than the one pictured probably because it was a lighter coloured beer, it was the keg version i had.

[Aqualung]

I had a drink of London Fields Hackney Hopster yeaterday,i presume this is a craft beer because of the price and it being keg and very cold,what did bother me about this beer was the fact that it was very cloudy,i felt out of my comfort zone in this type of pub and thought better of taking it back incase it was meant to be like this.

I would have enjoyed the drink more it was a clear bright looking bitter even if it was very cold and expensive,should this beer be like that or did i have a duff drink.

I can think of no reason why a beer like HH should even be distributed in keg form. It's a classic low ABV cooking beer from one of the better new London breweries. I've consumed it on many occasions in various Spoons throughout London at a price that could not be described as a rip-off. Some of the new breweries are in so much demand now that they only supply Spoons for "old time's sake".
One of the problems with "craft" keg is that the extreme chilling does tend to make pale beers cloudy. I don't think you were necessarily served a "duff" drink but you probably were ripped off. If you were to find HH in perfect nick on cask I'm sure you would love it!

I was served a cloudy pint today in Twickenham and it cost four quid. As it was 8.5% ABV I didn't complain but it did result in me totally messing up my journey back to East London!

[london calling]

I had a drink of London Fields Hackney Hopster yeaterday,i presume this is a craft beer because of the price and it being keg and very cold,what did bother me about this beer was the fact that it was very cloudy,i felt out of my comfort zone in this type of pub and thought better of taking it back incase it was meant to be like this.

I would have enjoyed the drink more it was a clear bright looking bitter even if it was very cold and expensive,should this beer be like that or did i have a duff drink.

When hoppy beer is sold at too low a temperature you get whats called hop haze.Dont think it was duff just badly served.

[london calling]

Having not had a pint of HH, I will bow to BF's superior knowledge. However, it seems your confusion may be understandable, Al. Take a look at Curmudgeon's latest blog, in para 3 of 'Another Country' where he describes the rise of the phenomenon known as 'London Murky'.
http://curmudgeoncolumns.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/may-2014.html
As a drinker of (so called) London murky I know of only one London brewer who does not add finings to their beer.The problem is the pubs are not letting the beer settle or sometimes hop haze.In traditional pubs the customers dictates how the beer should look and the landlord tries to get the beer in condition his locals prefer.In London the new pubs decide how its served and the customer can take it or leave it.I think a lot of pubs are getting too used to serving beer from the bigger brewers that clears in about a few hours but has been filtered .The smaller brewers cant do this so you need to rest the beer a bit longer.Tastes the same but nothing can beat a sparkling pint of beer.

[Aqualung]

I passed a shop in Loughton today proclaiming that it sold "Kraft beers and Organic food".
No cheesy jokes please!!

[aleandhearty]

I passed a shop in Loughton today proclaiming that it sold Kraft beers...

...Probably brewed for 'Singles' bars!

[Mobyduck]

I passed a shop in Loughton today proclaiming that it sold "Kraft beers and Organic food".
No cheesy jokes please!!
Probably just after a slice of the action. :rolleyes:

[Al 10000]

I had a drink of London Fields Hackney Hopster yeaterday,i presume this is a craft beer because of the price and it being keg and very cold,what did bother me about this beer was the fact that it was very cloudy,i felt out of my comfort zone in this type of pub and thought better of taking it back incase it was meant to be like this.

I would have enjoyed the drink more it was a clear bright looking bitter even if it was very cold and expensive,should this beer be like that or did i have a duff drink.

I had a another drink of London Fields Hackney Hopster in the London Fields Tap Room recently,it was a very clear and nice drink that i enjoyed drinking unlike the keg version in the Alice House.

Just goes to show how Cask Conditioned beers are far better than the craft keg version of the same beer.

I rest my case.

[london calling]

I had a another drink of London Fields Hackney Hopster in the London Fields Tap Room recently,it was a very clear and nice drink that i enjoyed drinking unlike the keg version in the Alice House.

Just goes to show how Cask Conditioned beers are far better than the craft keg version of the same beer.

I rest my case.

This craft keg stuff is never going to catch on .Is it.

[Aqualung]

This craft keg stuff is never going to catch on .Is it.

I agree with Al 11000 about the Hackney Hopster. There is absolutely no reason at all to keg a beer like that, or any other beers that work perfectly well on cask. There is a real problem with the haze from chilling these beers, well illustrated by the Spoons Sixpoint cans that I tried when they knocked the price down. I believe the only way round this would be to pasteurise them which is what Adnam's must have done with their Sixpoint keg now available in Spoons. I tried a pint of this at the end of last month and it was very cold and gassy but did have a genuine hop aroma, something that the big six keg beers of old definitely lacked. I'm going to my local Spoons next week for the curry club and will see how it goes with the Flaming Dragon curry as it is a permitted drink with it and it's the most expensive one.

The biggest problem is the prices that are charged for these keg beers, I've seen some of the price lists on twitter of Brewdog pubs and it's a total joke. Some places are ramping up the prices of cask (including several of the old independent regional brewers) but I'm certainly not playing ball with them once I know what they charge.