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Rex_Rattus
06-02-2010, 11:25
In another thread I asked for the location of The Horse and Groom, Groom Place (just off Belgrave Square) to be changed from Pimlico to Belgravia. RogerB has made a similar point regarding The Banker in EC4. Conrad says that as just having a postcode as the location is a bit dry, PuG has "mapped" all postcodes to a location, and for some reason SW1 has shown up as Pimlico. Fellow Londoners will be well aware that SW1 covers a much larger area than just Pimlico, and I don't think that there is a place name that can accurately describe SW1 in its entirety. The same goes for numerous Central London postcodes/area. In the absence of a better system conrad is disinclined to make any changes at the moment.

So, is there a better system? My own view is that as PuG has recently acquired a number of members with an extensive knowledge of London, he could just let us notify corrections as and when we spot them and eventually the London locations will be in much better shape. Could be a lengthy process, but it is one way of getting there in the end. There will be gray areas where a pub sits between two area, but I don't think that matters too much, and will be a lot better than having a pub stated to be in an area miles from where it really is. Anyone got any ideas on this one?

Conrad
06-02-2010, 11:41
Just one of my I wonder if you can come up with a better idea threads.

Basically this stems from a couple of correction threads we have running asking for London corrections:
http://forums.pubsgalore.co.uk/showthread.php?842-The-Banker-Fleet-Street&p=4943#post4943
http://forums.pubsgalore.co.uk/showthread.php?991-Horse-and-Groom&p=6542#post6542

It is explained a bit in there, but by way of some background. A pub is on our database, and has a number of elements that make it up, these elements help cluster it, for addresses they have a street and a town. The town operates as a way of grouping the pubs on our system, so Bristol is a town.

Just to complicate things a little more the town can either be a postal town in which case it shows under a county so Birmingham is a Postal town in the West Midlands, but Coleshill is a town in the Postal town of Birmingham. So in terms of navigating our system you would go Pubs Galore > West Midlands > Birmingham > Coleshill. And both Birmingham and Coleshill contain pubs.

Anyway this brings us to London, which is for me and Dave is a big mystery, to try and get it to work we dumped the Postal Towns once you are into the London postcodes and instead made each postcode its own Postal Town and gave them a name to offer some guidance, the names were taken from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_postal_district#List_of_London_postal_distr icts).

It is obvious this is confusing some of our Londoners who actually know London :), so I was wondering if there was a better system that would work for Londoners and non-Londoners alike. So if anyone has any bright ideas lets hear them.

Something that occurs to me is that we could make each postcode a Postal Town and then make the names towns in the Postal Towns, but that would mean you end up with SW1 being empty and just containing the districts of Pimlico, Belgravia, etc. Also I am guessing some of these districts broach more than 1 postcode so we are in danger of more than 1 district or misleading names.

What I think it needs:


Should reference postcode (eg. SW1)
Should be usable by people with or without knowledge of London
Should not allow duplication of place names
Pubs should only be listed once and can only have 1 town

It may be that there are just different bad solutions to this problem, and the maps certainly help but it is worth checking to see if anyone has any cooler ideas.

Conrad
06-02-2010, 11:44
Hi Rex,

We just crossed over, I will merge my post into yours, it offered a load of background that hopefully will help anyone technically inclined.

Edit: And of course it merged above this post to be nice and confusing :)

hopwas
06-02-2010, 11:44
Just to complicate things a little more the town can either be a postal town in which case it shows under a county so Birmingham is a Postal town in the West Midlands, but Coleshill is a town in the Postal town of Birmingham. So in terms of navigating our system you would go Pubs Galore > West Midlands > Birmingham > Coleshill. And both Birmingham and Coleshill contain pubs.

But Coleshill is in Warwickshire...

Sorry I'll shut up.

NickDavies
06-02-2010, 18:10
It's only really the central 'head' London postal districts - those that end in a '1' that cause a problem - the others are numbered alphabetically from the names of the areas they cover.

That could be got round by splitting them into 'villages' and to assist in that the head districts - those ending in a'1' are really a set of several postal districts in their own right - see the entry for SW1 here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SW_postcode_area

You could have something like (very roughly named don't flame me)

SW1A: Whitehall
SW1E,H,P: Victoria
SW1V: Pimlico
SW1W,X: Belgavia
SW1Y: St James's

Conrad
06-02-2010, 18:39
That suggestion is a really easy change for us to make as it is basically what is already there, we can just dump the pubs by postcode into those districts if that is correct.

HTM69
07-02-2010, 16:43
SW1V: Pimlico


Grrr.. prepare for a flaming! ;)

My work postal code is SW1V and I work in Victoria - not Pimlico!

Though, I guess you could argue that the location is right on the border. Pimlico is literally a stones throw away

Rex_Rattus
07-02-2010, 18:04
I reckon that Nick's suggestion is a definite runner. If we can sort out SW1 then that will be a mighty step forward. There will be pubs that will get mis-attributed (vis HTM69's posting above) but presumably any such can be corrected in the usual way? Nick has made a quick first stab at attributing areas to some of the SW1 "sub postcodes". Do you want suggestions for all of them? Happy to help, but don't want to tread on your toes!

Conrad
07-02-2010, 18:34
Ok, so is anyone against me splitting out Pimlico (SW1) to (The full postcodes are included in brackets to allow our search to pluck them out.):
Belgravia (SW1W, SW1X)
Pimlico (SW1V)
St James's (SW1Y)
Victoria (SW1E, SW1H, SW1P)
Whitehall (SW1A)

I will leave this suggestion up for a couple of days, and if no one is saying that it is wrong we will go ahead and do it.

RogerB
07-02-2010, 23:43
Ok, so is anyone against me splitting out Pimlico (SW1) to (The full postcodes are included in brackets to allow our search to pluck them out.):
Victoria (SW1E, SW1H, SW1P)

I will leave this suggestion up for a couple of days, and if no one is saying that it is wrong we will go ahead and do it.

I hate to throw another spanner in the works but I work in SW1H and it comes under Westminster!

Conrad
07-02-2010, 23:45
I think anything we do is going to be wrong :(

Is the new suggestion more right and would it leave everyone happier if not happy :)?

RogerB
08-02-2010, 00:07
Is the new suggestion more right and would it leave everyone happier if not happy :)?

I've had too many beers this week to understand that but it sounds right and I'm happier than the most happy person in a world happy contest.

oldboots
08-02-2010, 10:57
I'm not a Londoner but that's not going to stop me putting in my tuppence worth.


It looks to me like the difficulty is caused by the arbitrary link between Post Code and the list of Post Town names. When someone adds a London post code on the "Add Pub" page the Post Town is automatically inserted from a list I guess Conrad or Dave has generated and London is put in the County field. This list of PC/PT is of dubious accuracy to those who know the "villages of London" .

Would it be simpler, or even possible, to unlink Post Code and Post Town and have London as the Post Town, leave the County field blank, and let who ever is adding the pub make their own arbitrary choice of area by putting for example Pimlico or Victoria in the village field?

I had a quick look in an A-Z and counted over 300 different area names in London that I guess would be used by locals, some within a single post code others straddling two or three, so making a list to link all area names in common usage to post codes isn't practical.

Conrad
08-02-2010, 11:16
I had begun to wonder something similar myself. I have a few problems with that suggestion though.

I think people in London frequently do use postcode rather than area names, so it is quite useful to have it highly visible at that level if at all possible.

Allowing people to willy nilly add place names I suspect will actually just end up with us having a London page with 300+ different towns in it and become even less usable than it already is (I think)?

People would start migrating the pubs from Greater London to Central London as a more desirable location if we unlinked the postcodes.

I think if we did that it would make it more usable to those who know London, but less usable to those who don't. And I think that is the wrong priority as those who know London are more likely to work out any wrinkles.

All of the above are purely my opinion, so if you think they are wrong do chime in so that I know.

Technical bit (not important): When you add a pub we guess the location based on a partial postcode, something I cobbled together before we got some of our newer tricks. So it back slices the postcode to guess a location, if it finds a pub with the same postcode it chucks itself in that location, if not tries the postcode minus the last character, and so on back until it matches. When I rewrite that bit we will probably still use that trick still but I may also check exactly what county it is in as I can establish that using geo-positioning now.

Rex_Rattus
08-02-2010, 11:59
I think anything we do is going to be wrong :(

Is the new suggestion more right and would it leave everyone happier if not happy :)?

If Roger says that SW1H is Westminster then I for one am happy to go along with it.

Conrad
08-02-2010, 12:13
I misread his post (too late at night for me). I thought he was saying that his part of SW1H was Westminster, if he is saying SW1H is Westminster then I guess we are headed towards:
Belgravia (SW1W, SW1X)
Pimlico (SW1V)
St James's (SW1Y)
Victoria (SW1E, SW1P)
Westminster (SW1H, W1)
Whitehall (SW1A)

Or just doing away with the postcode constraint which I currently don't favour.

RogerB
08-02-2010, 12:26
If Roger says that SW1H is Westminster then I for one am happy to go along with it.

I'm looking out the window at it now! The problem is that St James Park station is 300 yards away one way and Westminster Station 300 yards the other. I can see the top of Westminster Abbey out of one window and St James Park out the other! Take your pick. It really comes down to more of a common sense approach than a geographical one and that can only be done by the people who live and work here with a good knowledge of London's geographical anomolies although I dare say there will still be a few disputes to be had! I think to get central London into manageable areas based on personal preferences will mean a lot of give and take over a period of time but ultimately would be of more use than post codes alone. Personally I have never said I work in SW1, it's always Westminster.

Rex_Rattus
08-02-2010, 12:30
I think people in London use postcodes like everyone in the country, and as the address for all pubs ends with the postcode then it is there for anyone who wants to see it. It doesn't need to appear anywhere else in the address as it does now - e.g "Pimlico (SW1)". Or have I misunderstood you?

I'm not sure why allowing people to add places names, and thus inevitably increasing the number of London "places" from those that would arise solely from postcode links, would be seen as a problem. Surely it becomes more usable if the non-London user knows exactly where the pub is? I can't imagine anyone coming up with place names that aren't in the A to Z, and any non-Londoner trying to navigate London without an A to Z is asking for trouble! I don't know how many London place names there are - there could be 300+ for all I know as London is an awfully big place. But does that really matter?

I don't see why anyone would really want to migrate pubs from Greater to Central London. What's in it for them? Firstly, I don't see why you really need this distinction in the first place, but you have it set up that way, so there it is. In Another Place I saw no evidence that anyone was deliberately mis-attributing pub locations - if that is what you are suggesting would happen. If anyone really wanted to do this they could presumably ask for the postcode or map location to be changed.

You have Nick's suggestion regarding SW1 sub-postcodes. If you implement that it would put most SW1 pubs where they belong, and any that fall just over a dividing line - as oldboots has rightly pointed out will happen in some cases - can be corrected when pointed out to you. So, keep the automatic link to postcodes, but be prepared to amend the place name if it is found to be incorrect. This is just my opinion of course - I'm really not being critical.

NickDavies
08-02-2010, 12:52
I just went over to the library and scanned in the relevant pages of the postcode atlas. The actual areas in SW1 are as follows, if suitable names can be given to them - it's a bit more confused than I first thought.

SW1A - Whitehall, Parliament then the two parks, Clarence house, St James's and Buckingham Palaces.
SW1E - a small area north of Victoria St and west of Buckingham Gate
SW1H - the area north of Victoria St centred on St James Park station
SW1P - the area south of Victoria St down to the Vauxhall Bridge Road, including Parliament Square, the Westminster Abbey and Cathedral, Millbank and Horseferry Road.
SW1V - the area of Pimlico east of the railway to the Vauxhall bridge road, and including Victoria station.
SW1W - west of the railway to Eaton place, including Sloane Square, Chelsea barracks and Victoria Coach station
SW1X- Belgrave Square, Sloane St and Harrods.
SW1Y - St James's, but not St James's Palace.

I can go through the Ws, ECs, WCs etc if anyone's interested.

Conrad
08-02-2010, 13:54
First thing I need to say is that I am willing to change this, but I am keen not to make it any worse, so do keep on feeding back to me even if it does feel like I am not listening.

Ok, inclusion of the postcode in the name is just to show we are grouping them that way which we don't do for the rest of the country, if we don't group them that way the postcode will removed from the name. It also means that if you search for SW1 in our search engine, it will show the area "Pimlico (SW1)" under the area matches. To be fair all of that is minor issues.

The problem I have with just allowing adding of place names is that the site needs to temper usability with being correct, if we are completely correct but the site is unusable to the casual visitor we have shot ourselves in the foot.

Why do I think adding places to the site will make it less usable? Compare Central London (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/counties/central-london/) to Greater London (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/counties/greater-london/). Greater London is our worst sinner with 142 "Postal Towns" (a bad name for our London listings, but just to give it the name used elsewhere in the site) I find that page completely unusable personally, whereas Central London has 35 currently, far more manageable chunks. So in our worst case scenario, Central London suddenly multiplies from 35 Postal Towns to 300+ Postal Towns.

Also lets imagine RogerB works in a pub ;) he tells his friend it is in Westminster, but some helpful soul has known better and put it in St James Park, his friend successfully find Westminster in the list of places in Central London but can't find the pub. Admittedly arguably that problem is already there, but I think it is less of a problem than the proposed open it up completely approach.

Moving places is mostly done by accommodation offering venues who hope to tag into a central areas hotel business, probably a red herring for what this conversation is really about so ignore it (although it is a headache for us vetting corrections).

Nick's suggestion is useful and may be better already than what we have, I'll let you all tell me.

NickDavies
08-02-2010, 14:45
Looking at it again the broadest brush approach would be as follows

SW1A, E, H,P and Y - Westminster. The big area bounded by the river, Vauxhall Bridge Road, Grosvenor Place, Piccadilly to near Piccadilly Circus then down to Hungerford Bridge. A big chunk of this area is of course devoid of pubs.
SW1V - Pimlico. I know it includes Victoria Station but so be it
SW1 W and X - Belgravia. OK so Harrod's is in Knightsbridge but it's they who insisted on being in the same district as the queen.

Conrad
08-02-2010, 14:52
Looking at it again the broadest brush approach would be as follows

SW1A, E, H,P and Y - Westminster. The big area bounded by the river, Vauxhall Bridge Road, Grosvenor Place, Piccadilly to near Piccadilly Circus then down to Hungerford Bridge. A big chunk of this area is of course devoid of pubs.
SW1V - Pimlico. I know it includes Victoria Station but so be it
SW1 W and X - Belgravia. OK so Harrod's is in Knightsbridge but it's they who insisted on being in the same district as the queen.
Ok, we have Westminster as W1, does that sound right?

NickDavies
08-02-2010, 15:06
Ok, we have Westminster as W1, does that sound right?

West End would be better - which is divided in four easily by Oxford St and Regent St into Fitzrovia, Marylebone, Soho and Mayfair.

oldboots
08-02-2010, 15:32
West End would be better - which is divided in four easily by Oxford St and Regent St into Fitzrovia, Marylebone, Soho and Mayfair.

I was just thinking it's mainly the names that confuse people who know London. If I was told a pub was in Westminster and it was actually up by Oxford Circus I'd never find it. Of course as a non Londoner I find SE11 and Manor Park equally opaque.

NickDavies
08-02-2010, 15:54
I was just thinking it's mainly the names that confuse people who know London. If I was told a pub was in Westminster and it was actually up by Oxford Circus I'd never find it. Of course as a non Londoner I find SE11 and Manor Park equally opaque.

The local authority of most of the West End being City of Westminster, which I guess is why WC1 (Bloomsbury, St Pancras, Gray's Inn) is styled Camden here as at least some of WC1 is in that borough though none of it is remotely near Camden.

Rex_Rattus
09-02-2010, 18:48
Why do I think adding places to the site will make it less usable? Compare Central London (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/counties/central-london/) to Greater London (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/counties/greater-london/). Greater London is our worst sinner with 142 "Postal Towns" (a bad name for our London listings, but just to give it the name used elsewhere in the site) I find that page completely unusable personally, whereas Central London has 35 currently, far more manageable chunks. So in our worst case scenario, Central London suddenly multiplies from 35 Postal Towns to 300+ Postal Towns.

Also lets imagine RogerB works in a pub ;) he tells his friend it is in Westminster, but some helpful soul has known better and put it in St James Park, his friend successfully find Westminster in the list of places in Central London but can't find the pub. Admittedly arguably that problem is already there, but I think it is less of a problem than the proposed open it up completely approach.

.
Fair enough Conrad, if you want to keep the number Central London names down to the bare minimum then so be it. But I would offer the following points. I don't see why Greater London is a sinner for having 142 place names. I agree that if someone wants a list of all London pubs then it won't work for that, but what use would a list of 2 or 3 thousand pubs be? Greater London does have these places, so why is having a list of them unusable? The other day I wanted a list of pubs in both Poplar and Wapping; ask anyone who knows London and they will agree that these are legitimate places. But they are not listed as places. I eventually found the Wapping pubs in Whitechapel (because I know the geography of that part of London I was able to make an educated guess as to where they might be listed). But someone who didn't know London might be hard pressed to find them. I suppose it depends on how you expect users to use these location names. You probably have more experience than me in this matter, but I would have thought that most people would want search for pubs in a particular location. I suppose a member might want to search for pubs in a more general area like the East End, and it might be difficult for them if they were all listed separately in Whitechapel, Stepney, Bethnal Green, Wapping, etc etc. But listing them all under,say, Whitechapel wouldn't help much. If that is how you think people want to use the search facility then it might be necessary to lump the appropriate postcodes together and call the place (say) the East End. I'm really just thinking out loud, I suppose. I have to say that it is not really an important issue for me; I have no axe to grind as I know my way round London's pubs. But it's something to chew on. Whatever you decide to do, the SW1 and W1 split is much better than the present situation, and I would support it as a definite improvement.

Now to that hardworking publican, RogerB! Are you really saying a pub should remain wrongly attributed to Westminster because if someone had been told erroneously it was in Westminster they would not be able to find it where it really is - i.e. under St James's Park? What about all those people who want to look for it under its correct location? What I've said is just one bloke's opinion of course!

Conrad
09-02-2010, 19:36
Don't worry, I am not interpreting it as anyone with an axe to grind here, and I don't know London so I am legitimately looking for help. I don't like Greater London as it just has too much information on it, as you saying having a list of 1,000's of pubs is just as bad and means we have got the locations too big (unavoidable sometimes sadly).

I suppose what I am saying is that in these place lists it should for me be fairly easy and reasonable to just drill down the site quickly without doing huge scrolls down the screen. Whereas if you know where you are going the search should be used. If you type Wapping (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/search.php?search=wapping) in you get a list of Google matches and then click on the London match (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubmap/51.5073000/-0.0610000) and you get a map with the nearest pub to the center listed, and a similar logic should work with most locations.

Now that logic will work whatever locations we use, so it is fine to change Central London around, but we need to be able to administer it, the postcode method is the only way me and Dave can manage that. I am happy enough to split it up, but I suppose I need the interested members to be invested enough that we can sort out the locations, and I would like to keep the quantity of locations discrete so that we don't get carried away and end up with a Central London that is multiple screens long.

Unless anyone disagrees (and please do if you can see an issue) I will try and degrade the SW1 and W1 listings in the way suggested by Nick towards the end of the week (may need help on sorting out the W1 split). For now I am busy sorting out a few other things.

NickDavies
10-02-2010, 10:07
As I said I'd suggest splitting W1 - the West End into four quarters centred on Oxford Circus

W1 G, H and U - Marylebone
W1 T and W - Fitzrovia
W1 D and F - Soho
W1 J, K and S - Mayfair

W1B is Regent St itself
W1C is Oxford St itself.

I would suggest putting any pubs in B and C in the correct 'quarter' manually. There's only a few on Regent St/Portland Place and one I think on Oxford St.

Conrad
10-02-2010, 13:15
Hi Nick,

Thanks for that, I will sort that out on Friday as you have described, will post up the ones I don't know where to put at that point.

Rex_Rattus
10-02-2010, 16:03
As I said I'd suggest splitting W1 - the West End into four quarters centred on Oxford Circus

W1 G, H and U - Marylebone
W1 T and W - Fitzrovia
W1 D and F - Soho
W1 J, K and S - Mayfair

W1B is Regent St itself
W1C is Oxford St itself.

I would suggest putting any pubs in B and C in the correct 'quarter' manually. There's only a few on Regent St/Portland Place and one I think on Oxford St.

Great work Nick. There is only one pub on Oxford St (The Tottenham - reviewed by yours truly only the other day). If W1C has only got the one pub in it, maybe simpler for Conrad to just allocate W1C to Fitzrovia?

Maldenman
10-02-2010, 16:48
I'd be fine with Fitzrovia for The Tottenham. It's not in Soho after all is it?

Conrad
12-02-2010, 18:21
This hasn't been forgotten but may now have to wait till Monday.

rpadam
12-02-2010, 23:57
I think this issue goes wider than the West End (W1) postcodes.

For example, if you look for pubs in Penge (I went there on the bus once, and it does have some pubs, and two railway stations) there are, apparently, none.

This is because all Penge pubs are listed under "Anerley (SE20)". In 1917 (really), the SE20 postal district was called Anerley but it does include Penge (which is a different place), part of Crystal Palace (also in SE19 and SE26) and part of Beckenham (also in BR3).

Not that I would particularly recommend going to Penge, but it does exist (and if I went there again, I might want to look up and see what pubs there were thereabouts...).

Conrad
13-02-2010, 00:10
I am really reticent to mess with Greater London there are already so many locations in it that it is barely usable. I think before adding any more locations it would be better to separate it in some way, so possibly North Outer London, and South Outer London.

The problem remains though that it needs to be administered in some way and I had never even heard of Penge till you mentioned it, so I am stuck in terms of trying to resolve it and then handling any issues that come out of it, the nice thing about the SW1 and W1 issues is that Nick has offered up a clear plan of how to improve it. I am happy to keep on improving it, but will need similar easy to follow solutions.

rpadam
13-02-2010, 00:18
Fair point, but I know a man who (usually) knows about such things so I will ask...

NickDavies
13-02-2010, 09:25
I think this issue goes wider than the West End (W1) postcodes.

For example, if you look for pubs in Penge (I went there on the bus once, and it does have some pubs, and two railway stations) there are, apparently, none.

This is because all Penge pubs are listed under "Anerley (SE20)". In 1917 (really), the SE20 postal district was called Anerley but it does include Penge (which is a different place), part of Crystal Palace (also in SE19 and SE26) and part of Beckenham (also in BR3).

Not that I would particularly recommend going to Penge, but it does exist (and if I went there again, I might want to look up and see what pubs there were thereabouts...).

Once up on a time it was a real ale mini-Mecca, three or four pubs along Maple Road all with a decent selection. Alas times have changed.

I guess just retitling it "Anerley and Penge" would clear up any confusion. There aren't that many pubs there. If you're not careful you end up with estate-agent speak, "Beckenham/Penge borders" for those who live in Penge but would rather not admit it. Some things are wrong in peoples' minds to start with which doesn't help. Many who don't live there call the area of Battersea around Clapham Junction station "Clapham", and it doesn't help that Google maps does too, despite Clapham really being a good stretch further east.

Conrad
13-02-2010, 17:51
Ok, well Pimlico (SW1) and Westminster (W1) are now gone, in their place are:
Belgravia (SW1W & SW1X) (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/towns/belgravia/central-london/)
Fitzrovia (W1C, W1T & W1W) (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/towns/fitzrovia/central-london/)
Marylebone (W1G, W1H & W1U) (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/towns/marylebone/central-london/)
Mayfair (W1J, W1K & W1S) (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/towns/mayfair/central-london/)
Pimlico (SW1V) (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/towns/pimlico-sw1v/central-london/)
Soho (W1D & W1F) (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/towns/soho/central-london/)
Westminster (SW1A, SW1E, SW1H, SW1P & SW1Y) (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/towns/westminster/central-london/)

Of the pubs I had left unallocated in W1 I have moved them as follows:
Fitzrovia
Dorchester Hotel (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22227/)
La Tasca (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/65805/)
The Living Room (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/53869/)

Marylebone
All Bar One (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22170/)

Mayfair
LHT Urban Bar (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/54484/)
Strawberry Moons (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22367/)

Soho
Blue Posts (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22194/)
Callahan's Irish Bar (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/53873/)
Cheers (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/53865/)
The Clachan (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22163/)
Glassblower (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22257/)
Jewel Bar (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/64895/)
Leicester Arms (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22300/)
The Red Lion (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/22344/)
The Warwick (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/pubs/55107/)

Thanks to all involved in helping with this, particularly Nick who managed to break it down in a way I think I understood. Let me know if any of it is wrong, and clearly keep on chipping in if you think there are ways to improve it further.

rpadam
13-02-2010, 21:45
Here are some more suggestions for the WC1, WC2, EC1, EC2, EC3, EC4 and N1 postal districts (with some names appearing more than once, and railway terminus names being given preference if in doubt between two possible alternatives):

EC1A – Smithfield
EC1M – Clerkenwell
EC1N – Holborn (1)
EC1R – Finsbury
EC1V – Old Street
EC1Y – Bunhill

EC2A – Shoreditch
EC2M – Liverpool Street
EC2N – Bank (1)
EC2R – Bank (2)
EC2V – Guildhall
EC4Y – Barbican

EC3A – Aldgate
EC3M – Fenchurch Street
EC3N – Tower Hill
EC3R – Billingsgate
EC3V – Bank (3)

EC4A – Holborn (2)
EC4M – St Paul’s
EC4N – Cannon Street (1)
EC4R – Cannon Street (2)
EC4V – Blackfriars
EC4Y – Temple (1)

WC1A – Bloomsbury (1)
WC1B – Bloomsbury (2)
WC1E – Bloomsbury (3)
WC1H – Kings Cross/St Pancras (1)
WC1N – Bloomsbury (4)
WC1R – Holborn (3)
WC1V – Holborn (4)
WC1X – Kings Cross/St Pancras (2)

WC2A – Holborn (5)
WC2B – Aldwych
WC2E – Covent Garden
WC2H – Leicester Square
WC2N – Charing Cross
WC2R – Temple (2)

N1 1 – Islington (1)
N1 2 – Islington (2)
N1 3 – Kingsland (1)
N1 4 – Kingsland (2)
N1 5 – Hoxton (1)
N1 6 – Hoxton (2)
N1 7 – Hoxton (3)
N1 8 – Islington (3)
N1 9 – Kings Cross/St Pancras (3)
N1 0 – Islington (4)

This isn't an easy exercise, and I'm sure that there will be some quibbles, but hopefully the above strikes the right balance with a sensible number of 'neighbourhoods' covering these areas.

rpadam
13-02-2010, 21:54
I think I would have taken SW1Y out of Westminster and put it separately as St James's...

rpadam
13-02-2010, 22:06
I guess just retitling it "Anerley and Penge" would clear up any confusion.
Alternatively, you could call SE20 7xx 'Penge' and SE20 8xx 'Anerley' (which isn't too far off the mark).

Conrad
14-02-2010, 00:50
Hmmm, if we do all those changes we take the amount of direct locations in Central London up from 40 to 62, that would mean of our 75 counties only 2 would display more locations - Greater London and Strathclyde.

Displaying more locations means there is more stuff people have to look over to try and find what they are looking for, I still think using the search and maps is a better solution rather than trying to dilute the locations to as small a chunks as possible.

rpadam
14-02-2010, 10:46
I thought you might say that, so I'll just leave my suggestions on the table in case you decide to have another look at this issue at some stage in the future.

However, in order to complete the exercise that I started, here would be my suggestions in the event you look at sub-dividing SE1 (148 open pubs) and NW1 (109):

NW1 1 – Euston
NW1 2 – Euston
NW1 3 – Euston
NW1 4 – Marylebone
NW1 5 – Marylebone
NW1 6 – Marylebone
NW1 7 – Camden Town
NW1 8 – Camden Town
NW1 9 – Camden Town
NW1 0 – Camden Town

SE1 1 – London Bridge
SE1 2 – London Bridge
SE1 3 – Bermondsey
SE1 4 – Borough
SE1 5 – Bermondsey
SE1 6 – Borough
SE1 7 – Waterloo
SE1 8 – Waterloo
SE1 9 – Southwark
SE1 0 – Southwark

PS - In my previous list, EC1Y should really have been 'Old Street' as it probably has too few pubs to justify being an area in its own right.

Conrad
14-02-2010, 11:39
The trouble is what you define as an area really.

I don't know London so I'm really not clear on what I am looking at there, but taking Bristol you could take St. Pauls, Montpelier, Clifton, Kingswood (technically a town), Bradley Stoke (again technically a a town), etc. and onward. We leave all of them as Bristol as at some point I don't think it works to subdivide - say for instance you are looking for a pub in St. Pauls, you would be as well looking at Bristol proper or Montpelier as the border between those districts is basically seamless, and has a completely different meaning if you are trying to sell your house. So clumping them all into Bristol whilst in some ways not being at all convenient serves the dual purpose of putting it into a block that has a fairly well defined border, and also one that we can clearly moderate as we are taking corrections.

The list definitely ticks the moderation box, I'm not sure if it ticks the clearly defined district box. I guess I will have to hear off all the people in the know what they think?

I do wonder if there is a need for a new trick here rather than changing what we have so dramatically. The only one that springs to mind is allowing pubs to be tagged with locations, and they could have as many locations as you like tagged onto them, so a pub could be described as all of - SE1, SE1 6, Borough, & South Bank. Not sure in my head how that lends itself to navigating the site though which is a little off-putting.

Conrad
14-02-2010, 11:44
Actually just as addendum to all that.

To extend the Bristol example, Bristol is shown in Greater Bristol as a Postal Town. If we were to make Kingswood a distinct district it would go into Greater Bristol as a "village" and only be shown in small print, and appear as a village section on the Bristol Page.

Central London is not using this form of navigation at all currently. For me it would be a better solution, I am not sure what would constitute a Postal Town, and what a village though, again a question for those who actually understand London.

Rex_Rattus
16-02-2010, 14:04
As far as London is concerned, I don't think that I would regard anywhere as either a "postal town" or a "village". As far as I am concerned they are all just "places". Oh, I know some places are called villages (perhaps the most famous being Wimbledon Village) but this is just because the residents, and other interested parties, think it sounds nicer and separates their "village" from their less affluent neighbours! Just stick to places.

If I were you I would do my best to attribute place names to the various postcodes - which you have done. Of course we know only too well that these postcodes don't match precisely the "places" in London. It's up to you to say whether this is just something that will have to be lived with, or if you will change the place name (irrespective of the postcode) when someone points out that the postcode attribution has put a pub in the wrong "place". Of course some people will be wrong in their re-attributions, but a darn sight more will re-attribute correctly.

Conrad
16-02-2010, 16:18
The Postal Towns and villages are just words, I was wondering if there was a concept of districts within districts in London, I kind of suspect not having said it, but if there were it would allow for some breakdown of regions.

I think at some point we are going to have to crack and get rid of the postcode attributions as you say the weight of averages would mean our users sort it out, but I would still like to try and keep the number of locations under control in Central London. I still think underneath it all the maps are the thing that holds it all together though, and at some point in the future I would like to show the map as part of the main pubs page, hopefully that will help people more as well.

Strongers
16-02-2010, 21:31
The problem with users sorting it out is that three pubs next door to each other end up being listed in different places eg. Piccadilly, Piccadily Circus and Westminster. It's confusing to say the least.

rpadam
16-02-2010, 23:29
Yes, but surely that would be an argument for putting all pubs in a single UK location?

Conrad
16-02-2010, 23:29
Certainly that has always been my fear, something I have toyed with in the past is allowing members to take ownership of areas they know, which also has the benefit of lifting some of the admin from us. That said, again this is an idea that would take some time to develop, might still be a good one though.

Conrad
17-02-2010, 00:01
Yes, but surely that would be an argument for putting all pubs in a single UK location?
Surely that is an argument for having every house as a different location?

How about trying to be constructive rather than just trying to moan at people who are trying to contribute?

rpadam
17-02-2010, 00:17
Sorry, I am trying to be constructive and and not moaning about anybody (least of all Strongers). My point was that 'border issues' are always a problem, no matter how big or small the geographical areas may be (and that they only way of eliminating this is to have no borders at all - not that I am suggesting this as a sensible solution). Apologies if my comment wasn't welcome, but your "don't moan at people who are trying to contribute" request surely applies to you (in respect on me) too...

Conrad
17-02-2010, 11:58
My point was that 'border issues' are always a problem, no matter how big or small the geographical areas may be (and that they only way of eliminating this is to have no borders at all - not that I am suggesting this as a sensible solution).
The data exists without borders, that is the Pubs Galore site at its most fundamental, it contains all the data, any borders we place on it are artificial and just ways of grouping the data. If you want to deal with the data without borders, just type a search in the search box at the top right of the Pubs Galore site. If you type 'Red Lion' in the search it will find all Red Lions in the UK (or at least the first 250) without applying any borders.

As well as this it is useful to apply groupings though so that users can also browse the site, and the ideal is to find a grouping that makes the site most usable to most people. This means that when thinking about groupings it is useful to think about those who don't know the area, as those who do are more likely to overcome hurdles in the groupings as they are better equipped to do so. In that respect I am finding this thread very useful where people are offering me, as someone who doesn't know London, a lot of free advice.


Apologies if my comment wasn't welcome,
Your comment wasn't welcome, particularly 2 minutes after this one (http://forums.pubsgalore.co.uk/showthread.php?1123-Heathrow-Airport-Pu%3Cbr%20/%3E%0Abs&p=7566#post7566). In that thread, 3 times I have explained my logic and 3 times you have told me I am wrong whilst not offering a solution. The last comment in that thread, and the comment in this thread for me just amount to trolling, nothing good was ever going to come from them.


but your "don't moan at people who are trying to contribute" request surely applies to you (in respect on me) too...
Sorry, no it doesn't. Whilst it may seem like a joke that I put Dictator in my title, it is the truth. These forums are moderated, ultimately I will engage in all sorts of censorship to try and keep them on track. Whilst you may feel I am 'moaning' at you, I am actually trying to warn you that if you persist in unhelpful behaviour I will begin to censor your ability to post. This would clearly be a pity as you have demonstrated that you have a great deal of value to contribute to this site that everyone can enjoy.

Sorry that post seems to be a bit unrelenting. I would prefer to just move on from this now, feel free to PM me if you wish to continue discussing this, but I would rather this thread were now left to discussing the issue of London postcodes & borders.

bzylzy
03-06-2010, 18:07
In reply to Rex-Rattus view on London postcodes
When you look up an address of a pub with a London postcode everything goes OK except when you enter the realms of SW1 -W1- NW1 most addresses only use the previous mentioned codes and if you have a pub with a name & address under one of the codes you are now left to fathom out which one they come under on the new format ?and have to go through everyone before you find it, whereas before you looked up the name under the postcode under the SW1-W1-NW1 and low and behold there it is,perfect. I have asked Conrad to look at this but he says it is what most people want, I now ask the question who are they?

Conrad
11-03-2011, 16:55
Time to resurrect this old thread.

We have just done a new site release (http://forums.pubsgalore.co.uk/showthread.php?6110-Completed-site-release). I am guessing that it will initially look like a step backwards when you look at Central London (http://www.pubsgalore.co.uk/counties/central-london/) (and Greater London once I sort that later).

If you look down the list we have incorporated your suggestions for SW1 & W1. It would be fantastic if you could start adding all the pubs in London to their districts areas, I think once the experts sort them out it should look a lot better and make more sense. One of the important qualities about this new change is that a pub can be in more than one area, so if there is confusion about which area a pub belongs in, chuck it in both.

Let me know if you have any questions or suggestions.

Rex_Rattus
11-03-2011, 22:49
Sorting out the London pubs sounds like a daunting task to me! I expect Hercules would have had second thoughts - "No way - where are the Stygian Stables?". But I'm sure we'll get cracking and get there in the end. As you say it will then all make more sense. I have to say that it looks good. I expect I'm going to have to think about where one place ends and another begins, as it is often very unclear (to me at least) where London is concerned. I'll probably have some more thoughts once I've tried it out.

Conrad
12-03-2011, 13:08
If it is unclear it is fine to put it in more than 1 area.

Strongers
12-03-2011, 16:26
Just to be clear before cracking on,

Hampstead for instance, should I be changing the postal address from 'NW3 (postal town)' to 'Hampstead' and then adding 'Belsize Park' in other areas nearby? Does it make any odds if I have also added Hampstead as an area nearby as well as changing the postal address to Hampstead

I hope this is clear.

Conrad
12-03-2011, 17:29
You can't actually change the postal address, that is something we have to do on the database.

This simply allows you to add areas to the pub, then that pub will show in that area (once approved).

More instructions here (http://forums.pubsgalore.co.uk/showthread.php?6110-Completed-site-release&p=29232#post29232).

Hopefully that answers it.

Maldenman
12-03-2011, 20:41
Well I've just had a go at a few local ones, seems simple enough but I'll leave it for now just to make sure I'm doing it right.

Strongers
12-03-2011, 22:58
Well I've just had a go at a few local ones, seems simple enough but I'll leave it for now just to make sure I'm doing it right.

Yep, I've done Hampstead and I'm going to leave it for the same reasons. I am a little concerned that the link to Hampstead has been approved on some of the pubs I have done, but a search for Hampstead comes up blank. Will this change or does the postcode have to be put in to get a choice of areas in that code?

Conrad
12-03-2011, 23:50
It is one of the quirks of the system. The search of the site is updated in the early hours every night, so that area should appear if you search again tomorrow. The suggested areas are got using a different system (which isn't appropriate for the main search as it is based on lat/long rather than name) which is why they appear in real time. It is done this way to reduce the load on the system (and is a lot easier programatically).

I have to chuck in a couple of improvements to the search so that you could search for pubname Hampstead, those should go in around Mon/Tues.

Strongers
13-03-2011, 00:08
It is one of the quirks of the system. The search of the site is updated in the early hours every night, so that area should appear if you search again tomorrow. The suggested areas are got using a different system (which isn't appropriate for the main search as it is based on lat/long rather than name) which is why they appear in real time. It is done this way to reduce the load on the system (and is a lot easier programatically).

I have to chuck in a couple of improvements to the search so that you could search for pubname Hampstead, those should go in around Mon/Tues.

Great stuff.
The new format will take a little getting used to and the amount of work on the Big Smoke is massive, but I think it will be better and worth the effort. I just hope that the less visited areas of London will not stay in this basic form for too long.